People can pot us all they like until the team wins the games it should, and also the games it shouldnt.

We have no choice but to take the hits as long as there are column inches to fill, and we continue to underperform.

A win in round 1 is more important than most people realise. Take the points with

our first choice forwards out and confidence goes through the roof. Who knows what we can achieve when BB and Weid are back if the team is in form and confident.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by ding

1 hour ago, binman said:

Agree.

But culture will help turn a team of very good players into a championship team.

One example.

Few would argue that our best pure midfielder (ie not tracc) is Oliver. One of the best players in the AFL. 

In the tigers practice match in the last quarter he brilliantly won a contested ball, accelerated from the contest and then handballed to Salem who was ahead of him, about 70 metres from goal and had space to run into. Great work. And it should have set up a scoring opportunity. 

But didn't. Because Oliver stopped once he handballed and didn't do the basics - sheppard/block the player chasing him. Footy 101. 

That player was able to put enough pressure on Salem to affect his kick and Salem kicked it straight to a tigers defender inside 50.

A turnover instead of a shot on goal. All because Oliver was lazy and chose not to do the basics. 

No doubt that error was picked up in the review with coaches. But i reckon it has more power coming from a teammate   

Now, perhaps a teammate pointed that error out to him. I certainly hope so. I hope a senior player gave him a bake as defence is an area he need to improve in. I hope so because that indicates the sort of culture Its time noted was embedded at the swans

Sure it is a practice match but that is absolutely no excuse. And i'm not wanting to bag out Oliver, who is an out and out star. 

But Oliver is senior player - and should be setting an example to his teammates and in particular the young players', who must look up to him. And it is hard for him to hold teammates to standard he doesn't reach. 

To be honest, it is for reasons related to culture that I have come to appreciate what Jack Viney brings to the team more and more. He can't hold a candle to Oliver talent wise but he would have made the block.

Excellent Post. This is a perfect example of culture or lack thereof in practice. 

The rest of your post about players calling him out and what you appreciate about Viney could be more spot on than we realise. I have actually been wondering if all the rumours about Oliver wanting to go to Carlton in the off season were a result of him being called out by Viney for exactly this type of issue. There have been rumours for a while about fractures in the playing group, then Viney lost the Captaincy, then Oliver is rumoured to be investigating leaving. It's all complete conjecture. I have absolutely no idea. But it wouldn't surprise me. Gus also has the same lack of defence. I was told that after a Saints win in 2019 the Saints coaches discussed the fact they targeted getting the ball to Oliver and Brayshaw's opponents because they knew they wouldn't get chased by them. 

1 hour ago, DubDee said:

this makes me so mad!

I need a cheeseboard and a nice Pinot to calm me down

Durif blended with Syrrah much better than Pinot.

1 hour ago, binman said:

Agree.

But culture will help turn a team of very good players into a championship team.

One example.

Few would argue that our best pure midfielder (ie not tracc) is Oliver. One of the best players in the AFL. 

In the tigers practice match in the last quarter he brilliantly won a contested ball, accelerated from the contest and then handballed to Salem who was ahead of him, about 70 metres from goal and had space to run into. Great work. And it should have set up a scoring opportunity. 

But didn't. Because Oliver stopped once he handballed and didn't do the basics - sheppard/block the player chasing him. Footy 101. 

That player was able to put enough pressure on Salem to affect his kick and Salem kicked it straight to a tigers defender inside 50.

A turnover instead of a shot on goal. All because Oliver was lazy and chose not to do the basics. 

No doubt that error was picked up in the review with coaches. But i reckon it has more power coming from a teammate   

Now, perhaps a teammate pointed that error out to him. I certainly hope so. I hope a senior player gave him a bake as defence is an area he need to improve in. I hope so because that indicates the sort of culture Its time noted was embedded at the swans

Sure it is a practice match but that is absolutely no excuse. And i'm not wanting to bag out Oliver, who is an out and out star. 

But Oliver is senior player - and should be setting an example to his teammates and in particular the young players', who must look up to him. And it is hard for him to hold teammates to standard he doesn't reach. 

To be honest, it is for reasons related to culture that I have come to appreciate what Jack Viney brings to the team more and more. He can't hold a candle to Oliver talent wise but he would have made the block.

 

Great pick up.

Agree that it's worrying this still occurs from someone who would have been told to do these things from under 9's.

Baffles me really.

1 hour ago, Balance Demon said:

I hope this not going to go on for the whole season. Seriously! Throw away lines from the media and people with self interest is one thing but the minute by minute, week on week, month on month and year on year assassination of our players is poor commentary and unhealthy.

That maybe true BD but we are perennial losers so what would expect? Glowing predictions?

4 hours ago, binman said:

Fair points. And simplistic is McClure's one wood.

Agree that players being honest with each other is no silver bullet.

But in more general sense honesty is an element of a broader culture. And culture is a critical element of success.  

Culture in footy club has many elements and whole club culture is super important.

But i reckon the most critical element is the culture of the team itself - that's to say the players. They have to drive each other and set the standards and non negotiables.

 

Agree 100% So do you see that element occuring!??

5 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Not a fan of the bloke, but hard to argue...

“The problem is the culture’s all wrong. Which is the biggest-name player that’s ever been dropped at Melbourne? I can’t think of one. Because it’s soft, a soft culture they’ve got.

“What’s got to happen is if the actual coaching staff and the people on the board don’t stand up and start to build a culture of this football club – it’s been 50, 60 years since they’ve won a Grand Final … and they’re still the same. Have they improved? Or have they got worse?”

Asked who’s responsible for helping flip the club’s fortunes, Maclure said: “I think the players are. If you want to play at that footy club, you’ve got to stand up and set some standards for yourself.

“Max Gawn is the captain of this joint – why isn’t he doing it? Why aren’t the senior players getting together and talking about it and actually putting your hand up if you made a mistake instead of actually running away from mistakes and saying ‘that’s just Melbourne’?”

‘Stand up and set some standards’: Mark Maclure urges Dees players to help fix ‘soft culture’

I don't know who Mark Maclure is (if that is even his real name) but it's obvious he is a Muppet. Angus Brayshaw was dropped early in 2018 for not doing what was expected and went on to poll third in the Brownlow and be a key factor in our 14 win home and away season and 2 finals wins.

For mine, while club culture has been the problem in previous years for the past few years it has been about the maturity of our team and I think we will see our best and most consistent football this season. I appreciate that Stan Maclure needs to write something but the season hasn't even started yet.

3 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

He's just speaking in generalities that can't ever be proven or disproven. It's extremely lazy. His evidence of poor culture is senior players not being dropped (which I'm sure Tom McDonald disagrees with).

The only reason he is still kept around in the footy media is because he has name recognition and because his low analysis populism appeals to a certain subset of the population who relate to what he says. It's easy to come up with his comments, which I'll do for any team that lost this weekend:

• Bad culture
• They're soft and don't go hard enough at the contest
• Lazy and don't work hard enough
• Bad gameplan
• Players look lost
• Players don't want to win enough
• Coach is out of ideas and has no plan B
• Not fit enough
• Players unmotivated or 'not switched on'

It's completely unprovable, but just panders to many supporters' existing feelings. It's like reading your horoscope. If you put generalities out there without any evidence (or knowledge) then people will just insert their own preconceptions into it. 

If you want to see how this sort of thinking works, just check out this forum after a loss. 

I agree entirely.

What he says may well be correct. But he doesn't know anything about our club. He's just a commentator using generalised statements because, as you say, it resonates with supporters. 

2 hours ago, binman said:

Agree.

But culture will help turn a team of very good players into a championship team.

One example.

Few would argue that our best pure midfielder (ie not tracc) is Oliver. One of the best players in the AFL. 

In the tigers practice match in the last quarter he brilliantly won a contested ball, accelerated from the contest and then handballed to Salem who was ahead of him, about 70 metres from goal and had space to run into. Great work. And it should have set up a scoring opportunity. 

But didn't. Because Oliver stopped once he handballed and didn't do the basics - sheppard/block the player chasing him. Footy 101. 

That player was able to put enough pressure on Salem to affect his kick and Salem kicked it straight to a tigers defender inside 50.

A turnover instead of a shot on goal. All because Oliver was lazy and chose not to do the basics. 

No doubt that error was picked up in the review with coaches. But i reckon it has more power coming from a teammate   

Now, perhaps a teammate pointed that error out to him. I certainly hope so. I hope a senior player gave him a bake as defence is an area he need to improve in. I hope so because that indicates the sort of culture Its time noted was embedded at the swans

Sure it is a practice match but that is absolutely no excuse. And i'm not wanting to bag out Oliver, who is an out and out star. 

But Oliver is senior player - and should be setting an example to his teammates and in particular the young players', who must look up to him. And it is hard for him to hold teammates to standard he doesn't reach. 

To be honest, it is for reasons related to culture that I have come to appreciate what Jack Viney brings to the team more and more. He can't hold a candle to Oliver talent wise but he would have made the block.

I haven't seen the example you've cited here with Oliver but if that's what happened, it's an unfortunate recurring trait with Oliver. He is a supremely good midfielder but his biggest weakness has always been the selfless side of football. Whether that's defensive running, sharing the ball around, taking the harder option to spread from a stoppage rather than just banging it on the boot, or in this instance shepherding, he can lift his game in those areas.

The point you make about a senior player going to him is interesting though. I distinctly recall this board blowing up when May had words with Frost in a game against Brisbane in 2019.

3 minutes ago, chookrat said:

I don't know who Mark Maclure is (if that is even his real name) but it's obvious he is a Muppet. Angus Brayshaw was dropped early in 2018 for not doing what was expected and went on to poll third in the Brownlow and be a key factor in our 14 win home and away season and 2 finals wins.

For mine, while club culture has been the problem in previous years for the past few years it has been about the maturity of our team and I think we will see our best and most consistent football this season. I appreciate that Stan Maclure needs to write something but the season hasn't even started yet.

Mark Maclure. Three times premiership CHF.

51 minutes ago, 640MD said:

Durif blended with Syrrah much better than Pinot.

You cannot put anything in Durif. It is perfection on its own.

Completely agree about the Durif. 

4 hours ago, sue said:

I am always impressed by those who think they can distinguish (from the outside) some cultural problem from a simple lack of skills which are obvious to all who watch the game.  No amount of  culture will turn a team of unskilled players into a champion team. 

So was it skill or culture for the back to back losses that ultimately cost us finals last year?

 56  years and counting.  Still looking for a culture.

4 hours ago, sue said:

I am always impressed by those who think they can distinguish (from the outside) some cultural problem from a simple lack of skills which are obvious to all who watch the game.  No amount of  culture will turn a team of unskilled players into a champion team. 

I would argue the Swans had a fair go of disproving that. They weren’t unskilled but they definitely weren’t the most talented either. 

4 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

I would argue the Swans had a fair go of disproving that. They weren’t unskilled but they definitely weren’t the most talented either. 

No denying an unmotivated  or  bunch of elite players not  team oriented can be beaten by lesser players playing with better 'culture', but skills first, culture second in importance (though should be coeval).

11 minutes ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

 56  years and counting.  Still looking for a culture.

Try an agar plate 

17 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

So was it skill or culture for the back to back losses that ultimately cost us finals last year?

Skill, we don’t have enough.

5 minutes ago, sue said:

No denying an unmotivated  or  bunch of elite players not  team oriented can be beaten by lesser players playing with better 'culture', but skills first, culture second in importance (though should be coeval).

Respectfully couldn’t disagree more Sue, case in point GWS.

Just now, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Respectfully couldn’t disagree more Sue, case in point GWS.

They have lost too many of their better players.

2 minutes ago, old dee said:

They have lost too many of their better players.

Now yes, but they had their chances.

1 hour ago, JimmyGadson said:

 

Agree that it's worrying this still occurs from someone who would have been told to do these things from under 9's.

That's exactly right. It is basic footy. 

In fact it is basic stuff in all team sports - ie keep in the contest, apply pressure when you can and most of all help out your teammate. 

I don't want to run down Oliver, but that sort of give and block should be second nature - in training, in practice matches and of course in games.

It means you recognise your involvement doesn't end when you dispose of the ball and you have your teammates back. Literally and metaphorically.

 

8 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Respectfully couldn’t disagree more Sue, case in point GWS.

  Sorry, I respectfully disagree BA. So you reckon a team made up of old dee, me and 20 of our ilk would be a great team if only we had the right attidtude and culture. Of course you don't believe that.  I say getting the skills in and developed is primary requirement.  Then culture can also be important, but without the skills, culture means nothing.    Of course skills & culture is best.

And re-GWS, their great skills and questionable culture got them to a GF a couple of years ago.  Would the MFC with a great culture but the recent players have got that far?

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by sue

4 minutes ago, old dee said:

Skill, we don’t have enough.

In 2020 did we have enough skill to win the premiership? no we didn’t. But did we have enough skill to beat Freo and Sydney, yes we did. When the Hawks threepeated they came to play for the big games but on a few occasions when playing a weaker side they would get jumped early and even be down at qtr time only to get a spray from their coach, then their leaders would step up and they’d go on to win by over ten goals. We get jumped by a weaker side and go on to lose, our leaders went missing last year when everyone knew what needed to happen in order to play finals. We may have been bundled straight out but it still would have been a great experience for some of our players.

4 minutes ago, sue said:

  Sorry, I respectfully disagree BA. So you reckon a team made up of old dee, me and 20 of our ilk would be a great team if only we had the right attidtude and culture. Of course you don't believe that.  I say getting the skills in and developed is primary requirement.  Then culture can also be important, but without the skills, culture means nothing.    Of course skills & culture is best.

I can guarantee you one thing sue I never had the required skill at any age.

Just now, old dee said:

I can guarantee you one thing sue I never had the required skill at any age.

ditto OD