Off-season outlook: Pressure will be on Melbourne and Simon Goodwin

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

18 hours ago, binman said:

Wowsa?

It goes without saying that developing and implementing game plan is a key responsibility of a senior coach, but I wasn't making a list of the responsibilities of a coach. I was responding to a comment about about our appalling performance in the two games in cairns.

Sure Goody has to bear some responsibility for preparation and poor selection etc but those losses were down to the players, pure and simple. The game plan was barely a factor. In the Freo game the players were simply to too lazy to stop Freo's spread, just as they were against the dogs. Against the Swans, not for the first time they played stupid football in the wet and windy conditions. Is that on Goody?

In both games they were clearly not switched on. Of course Goody plays a role in getting them ready but these guys are professional footballers playing at the elite level. Being ready to play is ultimately their responsibility.  An AFL player expecting the coach to take responsibility for them being ready is amateursville.

And JG, without wanting to open a post Omac argument front, it is just nonsense to suggest Goody has  been slow to make changes to the game plan since 2018. The fundamentals haven't changed (contest out, win the ball at the contest, pressure) but our game plan has changed quite markedly over the 2019 and 2020 seasons. I'm surprised you think otherwise.

In my view the players have really struggled with the evident change in game plan and this was big factor in our poor 2020 season. 

And arguing we have selected the same side for too long equally nonsensical, given it is palpably untrue. 

I mean in 2019 injury made this impossible and i don't think we once had the same team run out. I'm pretty sure we had the most changes of any club in 2019.

This season injury was not an issue and from the get go goody elected to chop and change players, positions, set ups and structures and continued to do so all season (eg selecting Preuss to play as a forward in Cairns). Indeed i was critical of his fluid approach to selection all year and would have loved it if he 'selected the same side' week in, week out and kept players in the consistent positions.   

And to say Goodwin is largely responsible for where we are as a club? Wowsa.  Sure he bears his share of responsibility but largely responsible? Please. By that logic Hardwick is largely responsible for the tiger's success. And Clarkson - for both the success of the hawks and the more recent failure. 

In the book I referenced previously in this thread - the Captain Class - its author, Sam Walker, set out to identify the greatest sports teams of all time and answer the question as to what makes a great team? He devised a formula, then applied it to tens of thousands of teams from different sports leagues all over the world, going back to the 1850s.

He ended up with a list of the 16 greatest teams ever, what he refers to as tier one, and 106 tier two teams who were close. There are two Australian teams in tier one: the 1993 -2000 Women's hockey team and the Collingwood 1927-30 VFL team.

In the book he specifically addresses the role of the coach and the question of how big a factor they are in making a team great. His answer, based on more than decade of research and hundreds of interviews, was not a very big factor at all and certainly not as influential as most would assume. He noted that whilst of course coaches play an important role, the biggest factor in teams success is it players and in particular inspirational leaders.  

In terms of the ability of the coaches for his tier one and tier two teams (so in his considered opinion the 131 greatest sports teams of all time) he had this to say in an interview:

"I never imagined I’d be saying this, but the evidence was remarkably clear. The coaches of these elite teams were all over the map. Some were successful, inspirational, or tactically brilliant, but others were decidedly not. Most had unremarkable records before (and after) they took over these exceptional teams, or had little to no coaching experience. Several teams even changed coaches.

It’s not that coaches are irrelevant – far from it. But even the most revered ones – Vince Lombardi, Alex Ferguson, Bill Belichick and Phil Jackson – achieved their best results in partnership with a captain who didn’t always do what he was told'.

In terms of my comment that once the game starts it is 95%, maybe more, on the players, this quote from Alex Ferguson (soccer's Vince Lombardi) makes my point well:

“As hard as I worked on my own leadership skills, and as much as I tried to influence every aspect of United’s success on the field, at kickoff on match day things moved beyond my control.”

Sounds like an interesting book.

But it's still one person's opinion and theory on the matter. A person who has no background in high level sport, let alone our indigenous game of AFL.

I'm not really interested in other teams Binman nor am I interested in where we've been pre-Goodwin era.

There are many footy experts both in the media and or who work within the AFL who know full well that Goodwin's shortcomings as a coach in a variety of areas are the main contributing factor as to why we are a middle of the road side right now.

Also, for someone who (wrongly) defended Oscar's performances as an individual for so long, it's hard to understand why in this case you're happy to put the acid on the players rather than Goodwin in certain instances. This idea of 'not turning up' etc is so simplistic.

I could sit here and write an essay on why Goodwin is the majority reason of our stagnation, I'm just not sure many want to read it.

 

 

[Demonstone 22,820]

20 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

There was $500m at stake.  We chose the money. 

Can't be criticised for that decision.   $500million is a LOT of money in anyone's language.  

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

1 minute ago, demonstone said:

Can't be criticised for that decision.   $500million is a LOT of money in anyone's language.  

Don't disagree,  just saying the AFL isn't to blame for the travel schedule. 

So many fans are quick to blame the travel schedule for the Syd and Freo losses - imv there were other very significant contributing factors which are on the club/coaches/players.

[Demonstone 22,820]

You may have missed the intent of my smart alec post, Luci.  Five hundred million dollars?   

[picket fence 17,510]

On 1/3/2021 at 1:57 PM, JimmyGadson said:

Wowsa you've missed out arguably the most important responsibility a coach holds. Gameplan.

Since 2018, Goodwin has been too slow to make changes to an unbelievable one-dimensional game plan which in-turn has seen us select the same side for too long, have the same problems during games for too long and lose games in a similar fashion for too long.

Goodwin is largely responsible for where we are as a club. 

The two losses you speak about can still be linked to the same problem areas we've seen for this entire period I'm speaking about. It's nothing new.

Can anyone see anything changing?? Even with Astute Chocko and Yze I can still see the Maelstrom in the making.

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

7 minutes ago, demonstone said:

You may have missed the intent of my smart alec post, Luci.  Five hundred million dollars?   

LOL!  ? Missed it entirely!

Covid has numbed my brain!.  Have gone into a voluntary mini lockdown as I live right in the middle of half the current covid active cases.  With new exposure sites being listed each day some visited by a case 8 -12 days earlier, one never knows where is next. 

Anyway, that is my excuse.  Or I could blame a typo ?.

Just for the record post should have read $500k.

[rjay 25,092]

50 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

I could sit here and write an essay on why Goodwin is the majority reason of our stagnation, I'm just not sure many want to read it.

Go for it 'Jimmy', I'm interested...

[old dee 23,872]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Money influenced mfc as well.  We didn't need to play in Alice just a few days before Cairns, but there was $500m at stake.  We chose the money.  Had we played the game in SE Qld it would be a whole different story:  not sure we would have beaten Sydney, just that we wouldn't be lamenting the travel schedule.

I think we lost the Syd game because we didn't play to the conditions.  Sydney's research and preparation appeared better than ours:  They defended at all costs when we had the wind (1st qtr) and attacked like there was no tomorrow when they had the wind (2nd qtr).  Game over at half time with the score:  7.2 vs 2.4.

It reminds me of that old saying LH. Money is the root of all evil.

[ignition. 1,477]

I heard a week or so ago that Damien Hardwick had an affair and separated from his wife as a result of time spent in their sports hub. This coincided with Nathan Buckley's "table tennis match" affair with club physio during his time in the Collingwood hub. Unfortunately, I also heard there was a third being our own Simon Goodwin. With Dimma's coming out today it's only a matter of time if true. I don't know any further details but I hope it doesn't bring our club into disrepute, or alternatively impact the coaching and development of our list.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,246]

12 minutes ago, old dee said:

It reminds me of that old saying LH. Money is the root of all evil.

In my case od, the root of evil comes from overloading on Shiraz 

[binman 43,802]

1 hour ago, JimmyGadson said:

Sounds like an interesting book.

But it's still one person's opinion and theory on the matter. A person who has no background in high level sport, let alone our indigenous game of AFL.

I'm not really interested in other teams Binman nor am I interested in where we've been pre-Goodwin era.

There are many footy experts both in the media and or who work within the AFL who know full well that Goodwin's shortcomings as a coach in a variety of areas are the main contributing factor as to why we are a middle of the road side right now.

Also, for someone who (wrongly) defended Oscar's performances as an individual for so long, it's hard to understand why in this case you're happy to put the acid on the players rather than Goodwin in certain instances. This idea of 'not turning up' etc is so simplistic.

I could sit here and write an essay on why Goodwin is the majority reason of our stagnation, I'm just not sure many want to read it.

 

Sam Walker was the founding editor of The Wall Street Journal's sport section and its  global sports editor for a decade, covering elite sport around the world.

For the book he spent over a decade analyzing data and records and interviewed hundreds of people (coaches, players, managers, owners, administrators etc etc) involved in elite sporting teams across the planet, including Collingwood. 

Sure its ones man's opinion but he has done the work to back up that opinion. And it is pretty convincing argument I have to say. 

Don't worry about the essay on why Goodwin is the majority reason of our stagnation.

But can you provide some evidence there are 'many footy experts both in the media and or who work within the AFL who know full well that Goodwin's shortcomings as a coach in a variety of areas are the main contributing factor as to why we are a middle of the road side right now'.

It shouldn't be difficult to do so since apparently there are so many football experts who hold this view. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by binman

[Demonstone 22,820]

58 minutes ago, old dee said:

It reminds me of that old saying LH. Money is the root of all evil.

"The love of money is the root of all evil"  is the whole saying and is actually a Biblical quotation.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

2 hours ago, ignition. said:

Unfortunately, I also heard there was a third being our own Simon Goodwin

You need to have good info regarding this if your going to spread unsubstantiated rumors around.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

3 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

There are many footy experts both in the media and or who work within the AFL who know full well that Goodwin's shortcomings as a coach in a variety of areas are the main contributing factor as to why we are a middle of the road side right now.

 

2 hours ago, binman said:

But can you provide some evidence there are 'many footy experts both in the media and or who work within the AFL who know full well that Goodwin's shortcomings as a coach in a variety of areas are the main contributing factor as to why we are a middle of the road side right now'.

I wouldn't mind seeing that evidence as well.

[ignition. 1,477]

1 hour ago, drysdale demon said:

You need to have good info regarding this if your going to spread unsubstantiated rumors around.

Should I have put it in a riddle? ?

Take it as you will it is just that, a rumour. But considering the Hardwick side came to light, I won't be suprised if something surfaces here. As for the unsubstantiated side, did you want photographic evidence? Otherwise, don't shoot the messenger. Again, take it as you will.

[old dee 23,872]

3 hours ago, demonstone said:

"The love of money is the root of all evil"  is the whole saying and is actually a Biblical quotation.

I stand corrected ds.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

3 minutes ago, ignition. said:

Should I have put it in a riddle? ?

Take it as you will it is just that, a rumour. But considering the Hardwick side came to light, I won't be suprised if something surfaces here. As for the unsubstantiated side, did you want photographic evidence? Otherwise, don't shoot the messenger. Again, take it as you will.

Your posting that Goodwin has had an affair, do you realize how dangerous that can be. Rumors spread by fools and believed by idiots.

[old dee 23,872]

5 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

Your posting that Goodwin has had an affair, do you realize how dangerous that can be. Rumors spread by fools and believed by idiots.

So will you apologise if he is correct DD? 

Edited January 5, 2021 by old dee

[drysdale demon 4,837]

1 minute ago, old dee said:

So will apologise if he is correct DD? 

That is not the point but yeah okay. Do you think people should post on internet sites that someone has had an affair without knowing a 100%?

[old dee 23,872]

1 minute ago, drysdale demon said:

That is not the point but yeah okay. Do you think people should post on internet sites that someone has had an affair without knowing a 100%?

Probably not but I am reminded of Randolf Hearst's comment that news is something that some one does not want you to read, the rest is unpaid advertising.

[BDA 22,889]

4 hours ago, old dee said:

Money is the root of all evil.

Sorry old dee to be a pedant. The correct biblical quote is "The love of money is the root of all evil"

Your welcome.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

5 minutes ago, old dee said:

Probably not but I am reminded of Randolf Hearst's comment that news is something that some one does not want you to read, the rest is unpaid advertising.

Probably a bit of a difference a media outlet suggesting it than a poster hiding on an internet site.

Edited January 5, 2021 by drysdale demon
spelling

[58er 6,565]

5 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Don't disagree,  just saying the AFL isn't to blame for the travel schedule. 

So many fans are quick to blame the travel schedule for the Syd and Freo losses - imv there were other very significant contributing factors which are on the club/coaches/players.

Surely LH its a combination of most of the factors 

Travel schedule inc from Alice earlier in the week and on the day.

Poor coaching inc. poor selection 

Not UP  for this game 

Our consistent lack of a game plan that can be flexible for windy wet or other conditions or different opponents!

 

[dazzledavey36 55,359]

12 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

That is not the point but yeah okay. Do you think people should post on internet sites that someone has had an affair without knowing a 100%?

Lol probably not mate but get use to it, its the world of social media.

Daily Mail having an absolute day out on this story using bigfooty as their source of information. Now that's funny.

Edited January 5, 2021 by dazzledavey36

[BDA 22,889]

3 hours ago, demonstone said:

"The love of money is the root of all evil"  is the whole saying and is actually a Biblical quotation.

beat me to it.