7 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I totally understand the move of Harmes to half back, it just hasn't worked out. and you're kind of robbing peter to pay paul by giving up one of the only mids with actual leg speed to try and cover the lack of leg speed down back.

I also think he is the most versatile of the mids.

Oliver is a centre square bottom of packer. Viney is a see ball get ball bull. Petracca is a powerful mid/HFF. None of then can play HBF. Brayshaw was tried outside all 2019 and struggled compared to inside.

Harmes has more ability to play anywhere. Its just that HBF is probably his third worst position after mid and HFF.

2 hours ago, deanox said:

I can absolutely believe the framework of this,  but I always have a hard time believing the concept that:

"Goodwin thought that the MFC was best off having Harmes play down back this year, but because he complained Goodwin promised to change our entire onfield balance by shifting him back into the mid field." (Paraphrased obv)

Making that change as part of a larger coaching season review, I can believe. But not knee jerk based on one convo, walking out thinking to himself "Oh no, I just signed Viney for 5 years, and now I promised Harmes midfield time. What do I do?"

I'd be more likely to believe that Yze has come in and gone WTF are we doing playing him off half back? Get him into the midfield. 

Someone mentioned yesterday on Demonland that Harmes' role would be different next year, so makes enough sense.

Alternatively, that Goodwin is simply prepared to play him in midfield next year. He did finally throw Harmes into the midfield in that final game where Harmes got injured. He was in there for the final quarter and almost turned the game.

Blind Freddie and all that, but with longer quarters next year, we should utilise a larger midfield.

If we're throwing Harmes in the guts as we should, Brayshaw should be traded 

1 hour ago, MadAsHell said:

If we're looking to have Petracca play the Dustin Martin role of splitting his time between the midfield and forward line, Harmes could be the guy to interchange him with. Start each game with Harmes forward and trac in the middle. When they switch Harmes can then clamp down on an oppositions best midfielder at the time.

That allows us to then have Oliver, Brayshaw and Viney rotate amongst the other two midfield spots and potentially have short shifts in the forward line also.

Good post. I like this. I'd hold Viney forward and get him to attend forward stoppages and play pressure forward otherwise.

I think we can get this balance right.

38 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

LH where have you heard "different rules for different players"? 

Can't say BB.  All I can say is I wouldn't make it up, not even for a 'rumours' thread.  Not my style.

Edited November 7, 20205 yr by Lucifer's Hero

Just now, Lucifer's Hero said:

Can't say BB.  All I can say is I wouldn't make it up, not even for a 'rumours' thread.  Not my style.

I know.  Thanks.

If you want to keep midfield defensive pressure To a high level you need to rotate the midfielders. It’s then how you use them off the bench and in other positions for it to really work.

Petracca, Oliver, Harmes could all rotate HF, Viney, Oliver FP,  Brayshaw a little more challenging for other role!

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Can't say BB.  All I can say is I wouldn't make it up, not even for a 'rumours' thread.  Not my style.

Coaches like bosses all have favourites, it’s part of life!

Melksham seemingly the standout this year, as he rarely got out of 1st or 2nd gear!

35 minutes ago, adonski said:

If we're throwing Harmes in the guts as we should, Brayshaw should be traded 

I hope he plays in the guts next year. Not a backmans butthole. Watch this space. 

Edited November 7, 20205 yr by Ethan Tremblay
Autocorrect

2 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I hope he plays in the guys next year. Not a backmans butthole. Watch this space. 

You'd really hope he'd be watching that space if that was the case

The supply of players on the market is more than most years so what you get is likely smaller unless talking a real gun.  Will be hard to find a home for TMc. 

Maybe with Brown taking the best backman he will be better on the 2nd or 3rd tall.

Maybe have to give him a try down back again and move May up the ground for a trial. He is strong and quick and you can play through him.

Have to try something.

 

With longer quarters and a longer season in 2021 we'll need more players in the midfield rotation than we had in 2020.

If we push Petracca and possibly Harmes, Oliver and Viney forward for periods then we'll need midfield cover coming off the bench.  The 22 should have at least 7 mids including wings, maybe 8 if some are is pushed forward periodically.  Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Langdon, TBA wing.  There's easily room for them all and more.

I'd be OK with retrying Tomlinson on the wing.  I have Petty ahead of him in the backline and I think on the MCG in longer games his height and stamina can be used to advantage.  He's an average footballer but he can play a number of roles at an acceptable level so he provides useful depth for in-match injuries.

42 minutes ago, adonski said:

If we're throwing Harmes in the guts as we should, Brayshaw should be traded 

I actually think he could play as a defensive wing, similar to the way Brissy use Robinson. Set him up at the back of stoppages, while Langdon can actively try and run forward more. 

5 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

With longer quarters and a longer season in 2021 we'll need more players in the midfield rotation than we had in 2020.

☝️+1

27 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I hope he plays in the guts next year. Not a backmans butthole. Watch this space. 

Wait, what space am I supposed to be watching? ?

53 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

With longer quarters and a longer season in 2021 we'll need more players in the midfield rotation than we had in 2020.

If we push Petracca and possibly Harmes, Oliver and Viney forward for periods then we'll need midfield cover coming off the bench.  The 22 should have at least 7 mids including wings, maybe 8 if some are is pushed forward periodically.  Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Langdon, TBA wing.  There's easily room for them all and more.

I'd be OK with retrying Tomlinson on the wing.  I have Petty ahead of him in the backline and I think on the MCG in longer games his height and stamina can be used to advantage.  He's an average footballer but he can play a number of roles at an acceptable level so he provides useful depth for in-match injuries.

Agreed, I would like to see Salem pushed up to fill the vacant wing position, Brayshaw to play as an inside mid and then cover on the wing when Langdon or Salem is off the ground. I'd have Oliver and Harmes playing predominately inside mid as well and then Petracca, Viney, and Jackson rotating between forward and inside mid.

3 minutes ago, Gawndog98 said:

Agreed, I would like to see Salem pushed up to fill the vacant wing position, Brayshaw to play as an inside mid and then cover on the wing when Langdon or Salem is off the ground. I'd have Oliver and Harmes playing predominately inside mid as well and then Petracca, Viney, and Jackson rotating between forward and inside mid.

Who are you playing at halfback in place of Salem? We're short of capable small-medium defenders as it is.

2 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

Who are you playing at halfback in place of Salem? We're short of capable small-medium defenders as it is.

B.     Lockhart  May  Hibberd

HB.  Rivers    Tomo  Lever

1 minute ago, Pennant St Dee said:

B.     Lockhart  May  Hibberd

HB.  Rivers    Tomo  Lever

We need 7 for the rotation PSD and Lockhart was out of favour last year.

6 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

B.     Lever  May  Hibberd/Tomo

HB.  Rivers/Lockhart    Petty  Jetta

 

13 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

Who are you playing at halfback in place of Salem? We're short of capable small-medium defenders as it is.

That's where I'd love for us to go hard at Witherden, but if not I'd move Hunt back to HBF.

FWIW I've already posted my preference in this thread:

• May, Petty, Lever
• Salem, Hibberd, Rivers, Smith

But Smith is unproven I agree

2 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I think this is a classic case of confirmation bias.  Here is what I think:

• we are short of small backs.  Jetts is cooked (sadly), Hibbo is very close to the end and beyond that we have Salem and Rivers who are AFL quality small backs and I suspect Rivers may well finish elsewhere.  Lockhart is a WIP and I'm struggling to think of other small backs.
• we have an abundance of mids.  Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Petracca are all ahead of Harmes for inside mid stuff so the FD decided that they should see how Harmes goes in the HB role.  That's not mismanagement.  He trained there all PS and appeared to do well.  We played him there for most of this season but most would agree it didn't work.
• If the info from LN is true the FD have recognized this and will move Harmes back to the role he plays best and they will no doubt look to fill the HB role with someone else.

I've read this forum for a long time and couldn't count the number of times I've seen posters suggest players play in different position.  The FD tried to utilize Harmes more effectively off a HBF and it didn't work.  So they change it back.  That's damning, not.

So where is this Goody's "mismanagement and people skills".  I accept that Harmes would probably prefer to play elsewhere but like the vast majority of players he'll willingly go where he's most valuable to the team.  So he didn't complain.  Goody recognized the experiment didn't work so he's changed it.

Good management in my book.

Each to their own. If Harmes was tried off half back for a few games and it didn't work, it is what it is. This is not what happened. He was tried off half back the entire year, except for the last quarter before he got injured. It was patently obvious it wasn't working and yet we persisted. Poor management IMO. 

2 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

LF where have you heard "different rules for different players"?  My reading is Goody is pretty ruthless.  Hogan and Watts will testify to that.  Goodwin's job security relies on success so he is hardly going to play favourites at the expense of team success.

Jake Melksham. Was very ordinary all year and struggled to stay involved for large parts of games.

 

4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Using Harmes as run-with and drift forward is consistent with Pert's comments that coaches need to maximise the strengths and attributes of our existing players.  My translation:  stop playing them out of position.

I'm not surprised about the culture of 'different rules for 'different players'.  I've heard this several times from outside sources in recent years.  And it was something fairly obvious to many DL's especially when it came to team selections.

This happens at every football club from AFL to local footy.

It's just human nature.

As much as a coach says it doesn't, and he might truly believe it.

Malthouse even admitted it a few years back. Basically said one rule didn't fit all...he's right.

The other side of this is you will always have disaffected or just plain out of form players at every club and they will always find something, someone to blame. Often not themselves.

4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Using Harmes as run-with and drift forward is consistent with Pert's comments that coaches need to maximise the strengths and attributes of our existing players.  My translation:  stop playing them out of position.

I'm not surprised about the culture of 'different rules for 'different players'.  I've heard this several times from outside sources in recent years.  And it was something fairly obvious to many DL's especially when it came to team selections.

Yes, however its worth noting that quite often players are played out of their accustomed position and succeed. Eg, Tmac as a forward, wasn't May drafted as a forward, and even the great David Neitz. But I think it's fair to say Harmes would benefit from a return to a midfield run with role