3 hours ago, Dr.D said:

Top 4 was the expectation this year. not next year. this year we showed we're not a top 8 team. I don't see where the improvement is coming from. Goodwin is still there.

I can see scope for improvement, for sure, but similar to you, i don't think it happens under Goodwin. unless Yze can have an incredible influence. 

I see guys like Jackson, Rivers, Kozzie all having a full pre season, Weideman continuing to grow, Oliver i think has another level to go to, May and Lever improving together. and the additions of some more outside run and polish and hopefully Ben Brown. 

I think that's a top 4 side on paper, so if we don't make it, and we're not smashed by injuries, we will know why. 

4 hours ago, BW511 said:

I'd rather a crippled Smith

I'd rather he wasn't crippled.

I'd like 40-50 good games from Smith.  That would be highly beneficial on a wing opposite Langdon.

As a supporter, why would I care if he's given 2 years or 3 ?  What's it to me (his length of contract) if he gives 40-50 good games ?

Edited October 21, 20205 yr by Hannibal Inc.

2 hours ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I think that's a top 4 side on paper, so if we don't make it, and we're not smashed by injuries, we will know why. 

It's nowhere near a top 4 side, on paper or anywhere else. In 2018 Richmond had *eight* players in the AA squad. Eight. We'll be lucky if we get 3.

1 minute ago, bing181 said:

It's nowhere near a top 4 side, on paper or anywhere else. In 2018 Richmond had *eight* players in the AA squad. Eight. We'll be lucky if we get 3.

How many did they have in 2016?

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

How many did they have in 2016?

Where did they finish in 2016?

6 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Where did they finish in 2016?

Exactly. The core of the team was the same but two years later they had a flag, a prelim finish and 8 AA's.

7 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

It's a no brainer offering him a 3 year deal, particularly given that:

• he'll most likely be good for another 3 years, particularly with Burgess managing him; 

 

Burgess also managed fellow veterans Jones and Jetta this year and they both continued to decline.

That extra year for players is a big thing. Half a million dollars plus is huge for those that don't have a career to step into after retirement. You can't blame them for wanting to cling on as long as they can, but this is only a short term fix us.

 

Edited October 21, 20205 yr by dee-tox

On 10/17/2020 at 11:00 AM, Moonshadow said:

What are you... 13?

Go away

Gee, be careful mate.  I had my post deleted and was given a warning for "abusive behaviour" for asking the same question of somebody else on this forum.

32 minutes ago, bing181 said:

It's nowhere near a top 4 side, on paper or anywhere else. In 2018 Richmond had *eight* players in the AA squad. Eight. We'll be lucky if we get 3.

West Coast had 4 and won the flag 

Richmond had 2 in the 2017 AA squad and won the flag, Port, Carlton and St Kilda also had 2 in the squad 

Tigers won the flag last year with 4 in the squad

fwiw, in 2016 richmond had two players in the all australian squad - alex rance and dustin martin, who both made the final 22

suffice to say gawn was our only player in the 40-man squad, and he made the side too

the following year - the beginning of their golden run of dominance - they had two; same blokes, but this time they both made the side

we had hibberd (who made the final side), jetta, and garlett

the crows had a whopping 8 - betts, matt crouch, jacobs, laird, lever, lynch, sloane, and walker - with laird, betts, and m crouch making the final 22

a lot can change in a year, let alone three years

Edited October 21, 20205 yr by whatwhatsaywhat

2 hours ago, bing181 said:

It's nowhere near a top 4 side, on paper or anywhere else. In 2018 Richmond had *eight* players in the AA squad. Eight. We'll be lucky if we get 3.

As the posts after yours show, this isn't a good argument.

Their list screamed anything other than "top 4 and four-year dynasty" in 2016, but all of the following were on their 2016 list: Vlastuin, Grimes, Martin, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Astbury, Houli, Rioli, Rance, Lambert, McIntosh, Broad, Short, Castagna and Soldo). The majority of that group are a win away from becoming triple premiership players.

At the time they also had Deledio, Ellis, Grigg, Townsend and Butler - all 2017 premiership players bar Deledio.

That list had taken them to three years of finals but no wins (2013-15) followed by a shocker of a 2016. That's a mid-table four-year run. A bit like what we've had (2017, 2018 and 2020 were all mid-table finishes, with 2018 buoyed by the two finals wins, and 2019 being a disastrous shocker).

We've seen enough from the core of our list to suggest we've got what it takes. We've been thereabouts for four years, like they were. We've got obvious talent, like they did. We've shown glimpses, like they did.

None of this is to suggest we're guarantees to make it, it's just to dispel the notion that our list definitely isn't good enough. I don't buy that argument. 

33 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

As the posts after yours show, this isn't a good argument.

Their list screamed anything other than "top 4 and four-year dynasty" in 2016, but all of the following were on their 2016 list: Vlastuin, Grimes, Martin, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Astbury, Houli, Rioli, Rance, Lambert, McIntosh, Broad, Short, Castagna and Soldo). The majority of that group are a win away from becoming triple premiership players.

At the time they also had Deledio, Ellis, Grigg, Townsend and Butler - all 2017 premiership players bar Deledio.

That list had taken them to three years of finals but no wins (2013-15) followed by a shocker of a 2016. That's a mid-table four-year run. A bit like what we've had (2017, 2018 and 2020 were all mid-table finishes, with 2018 buoyed by the two finals wins, and 2019 being a disastrous shocker).

We've seen enough from the core of our list to suggest we've got what it takes. We've been thereabouts for four years, like they were. We've got obvious talent, like they did. We've shown glimpses, like they did.

None of this is to suggest we're guarantees to make it, it's just to dispel the notion that our list definitely isn't good enough. I don't buy that argument. 

Exactly especially considering the quality of the competition. Geelong is playing off in the GF this weekend FFS!

12 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

As the posts after yours show, this isn't a good argument.

Their list screamed anything other than "top 4 and four-year dynasty" in 2016, but all of the following were on their 2016 list: Vlastuin, Grimes, Martin, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Astbury, Houli, Rioli, Rance, Lambert, McIntosh, Broad, Short, Castagna and Soldo). The majority of that group are a win away from becoming triple premiership players.

At the time they also had Deledio, Ellis, Grigg, Townsend and Butler - all 2017 premiership players bar Deledio.

That list had taken them to three years of finals but no wins (2013-15) followed by a shocker of a 2016. That's a mid-table four-year run. A bit like what we've had (2017, 2018 and 2020 were all mid-table finishes, with 2018 buoyed by the two finals wins, and 2019 being a disastrous shocker).

We've seen enough from the core of our list to suggest we've got what it takes. We've been thereabouts for four years, like they were. We've got obvious talent, like they did. We've shown glimpses, like they did.

None of this is to suggest we're guarantees to make it, it's just to dispel the notion that our list definitely isn't good enough. I don't buy that argument. 

2 years ago we beat this team in a final with all bar the highlighted players playing in the GF. They have been replaced with Dahlaus, Rohan, Miers, Simpson and Stanley. We have the foundations, sure we need to alter a few things, have a bit of luck, players to prove but things can change quickly.

14 hours ago, bing181 said:

It's nowhere near a top 4 side, on paper or anywhere else. In 2018 Richmond had *eight* players in the AA squad. Eight. We'll be lucky if we get 3.

And we have about 8 players who've been AA in the last 5 years. which shows that while not all were at that level this season, we have more than enough quality to be challenging for top 4. 

I guarantee you, if the club works out how to maximize Max's dominance, we finish top 4 next year. 

17 hours ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I can see scope for improvement, for sure, but similar to you, i don't think it happens under Goodwin. unless Yze can have an incredible influence. 

I see guys like Jackson, Rivers, Kozzie all having a full pre season, Weideman continuing to grow, Oliver i think has another level to go to, May and Lever improving together. and the additions of some more outside run and polish and hopefully Ben Brown. 

I think that's a top 4 side on paper, so if we don't make it, and we're not smashed by injuries, we will know why. 

Agreed. We need the bottom 6-8 players to improve. There is no doubt we have top end talent across the board. 

Jacko, Kozzie, Rivers, Lockhart, Tomlinson, Melksham, Brayshaw, Weid ... all have upside.. its time they cashed in. If these guys can all take it up a notch and our premium players remain at the level consistently, we will have a chance at being top 4.  

2 hours ago, CYB said:

Agreed. We need the bottom 6-8 players to improve. There is no doubt we have top end talent across the board. 

Jacko, Kozzie, Rivers, Lockhart, Tomlinson, Melksham, Brayshaw, Weid ... all have upside.. its time they cashed in. If these guys can all take it up a notch and our premium players remain at the level consistently, we will have a chance at being top 4.  

I remember it being said some years ago - can’t remember who - that the difference between the top 4 and the winner is the bottom 6 on the day.

Smith won't be at Hawthorn in 21. 

6 minutes ago, Dannyz said:

Smith won't be at Hawthorn in 21. 

fact or speculation Dan?

12 minutes ago, Salems Lot said:

fact or speculation Dan?

Fact, I'm told. We are well in the running! 

3 hours ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I guarantee you, if the club works out how to maximize Max's dominance, we finish top 4 next year. 

Patches, Goodwin hasnt managed to fix our forward/centre connection for the past 18 months so i wouldnt hold ur breath with us figuring out how to maximise Maxs ruck dominance. I just have this sick feeling in my gut we are wasting another season with goody next yr. Time will tell.

1 minute ago, DemonOX said:

Patches, Goodwin hasnt managed to fix our forward/centre connection for the past 18 months so i wouldnt hold ur breath with us figuring out how to maximise Maxs ruck dominance. I just have this sick feeling in my gut we are wasting another season with goody next yr. Time will tell.

Not holding my breath at all. and to be honest your point is why i'm so anti goodwin, we're a team that could improve drastically under the right coach

 

3 hours ago, DemonOX said:

Goodwin hasnt managed to fix our forward/centre connection for the past 18 months

Goodwin? Is there a single player in our forward 6 who'd get a game in either of the two teams in the GF? I think not, Fritsch might be the only one.

3 hours ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

we're a team that could improve drastically under the right coach

Odd thing to say when both Petracca and May credited Goodwin with their improvement, Viney cited him as one of the main reasons he wanted to stay, and we improved our year-end ladder position from 17th to 9th.

But heh, confirmation bias.

56 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Odd thing to say when both Petracca and May credited Goodwin with their improvement, Viney cited him as one of the main reasons he wanted to stay, and we improved our year-end ladder position from 17th to 9th.

But heh, confirmation bias.

I mean, i just see 9th as a massive failure for a list that in 2018 had experienced year on year improvement and made a prelim, to then get an injury free run and still not make finals is an unmitigated disaster. 

1-2 players crediting Goodwin with improved seasons is great, but our overall performance cannot by anyone connected to reality, be considered anything other than a failure and a significant amount of that comes back on the coach.