CHANGES: Rd 14 vs St Kilda

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

2 hours ago, cantstandyasam said:

 "....... many would’ve thought they would be a very good chance against the Bulldogs..... Alas, after half time, an unanswered six goal blitz pretty much put an end to their prospects of taking the four points, and now Melbourne find themselves back outside the 8 and in that middle bracket jockeying for a spot for finals action. A win would’ve consolidated their position, but as is often the case, when it really counted, they just couldn’t get it done." Mongrel Punt

That's it in a nutshell we can't deliver when we are expected to and that's been a problem for zonks, I remember Carey saying once "you can't trust Melbourne" and I disagree I reckon you can trust us to break our hopes. If only the midfield group could click and play accountable football rather than chase kicks and kick indiscriminately into the forward 50. You'd think they'd have some composure by now. If we any chance to beat St.Kilda, we need better delivery lowering eyes and an injection of pace.

 

This sums us up in a nutshell.  Whenever we are favs or slightly better than a 50/50 we usually play like rabbits in the headlights at some point during that match.  When the going gets tough too many players go missing instead of stepping up and taking it to another level when challenged (and i'm talking small percentages here, not expecting miracles across the board).

Does this mean we should win this week given we will surely be going in as rank underdogs?  Unfortunately i reckon we can match speedy skilled teams for about a half as we did last week, winning enough inside contests and clearances to balance the losses on the outside, at least to that point. 

Once that effort/skill drops away a little (skills usually fairing the worst here) after half time and the game opens up a little with the opp starting to win their fair share of clearances and contested, they're then able to spread and use their better skills on a more regular basis, as well as intercepting more of our awful turnovers, to rip us a new one with multiple unanswered goals.  Weight of numbers on the outside overwhelm us once our "inside" intensity, skill levels and ability to run down the opp drops away in the second half (against those clubs who have the speed and skills i mean).

It doesn't help that we also don't seem to react to this in the box and try and shut down one or two of the main offenders from the opp.  The box also appearing to freeze like a rabbit in the headlights.  Ok so maybe we don't have the answers on the day as we just don't have the outside speed / chase down ability to go with the opp.  But surely that's by design both at a list level and at the selection table (to various degrees).

I can't say i've witnessed us doing much of anything such as...

? Attempting to close down the opp's spread / movement by going man on man for short stints before reverting back to a zone method once/if we get the game back on our terms.  And i'm not talking about waiting until the 4th, 5th or 6th goal in a row is kicked either.  A good box should be able to recognise we're losing control of the ball / losing control of the match early on into an opp's run on and swing the change ups quickly ;

? Slowing our own ball movement down to bore the opp and let them cool their heels, putting a halt to their run on.

?  Down by 5/6 goals or more and time's running out to turn things around?  How about throwing some caution to the wind with player positions / roles and giving yourself and the opp a different look / feel.  Look at the Bombers match yesterday, swinging Hooker from HB up forward and instructing their blokes to handball on the angle, then kick long to one on ones once they got in the clear.  Sure it was only a few minor tweaks but it shows that sometimes a few tweaks (whether it's actually the tweaks themselves having a direct effect and/or the mere psychological effect upstairs, maybe a bit of both) can have a major effect on the outcome of a match, including massive turnarounds on occasions even if history would show your chances of doing so are slim.

As per the late John Kennedy's famous cry "Do something, don't just think....DO!"

Edited August 28, 2020 by Rusty Nails

[binman 42,986]

1 hour ago, Dannyz said:

He's contracted for another year and won't be released early from his contract due to financial and his impact, culturally, on the group. 

No chance they cut nev. For the reasons you note would be crazy. Another is the obvious thing, if he is keen, is for him to transition to a well being role once he retires. Hard to do if you sack him.

Only chance of him not playing on is if he calls it a day. 

And whilst he has seemed off the pace this season i think the whole covid and hub situation has to be factored in. Who knows how it is impacting individual people.

Nev has a young family and is leader in his community, a community that is a massive risk of being disproportionately impacted by the covid crisis from both a health and economic perspective. So he as a lot on his plate.

Perhaps next season he can get back to his best.

Edited August 28, 2020 by binman

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

2 hours ago, forever demons said:

I hate that word

You better learnings to like it. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,787]

19 minutes ago, binman said:

No chance they cut nev. For the reasons you note would be crazy. Another is the obvious thing is if he is keen for him to transition to a well being role once he retires. Hard to do if you sack him.

Only chance of him not playing on is if he calls it a day. 

And whilst he has seemed off the pace this season i think the whole covid and hub situation has to be factored in. Who knows how it is impacting individual people.

Nev has a young family and is leader of his community, a community that is a massive risk of being disproportionately impacted by the covid crisis from about h health and economic perspective. So he as a lot on his plate. Perhaps next season he can get back to his best.

My comment about Jetta not playing again is based on my own view that he will accept a graceful retirement. What complicates matters for him and the club is the post-Covid (or, possibly, continuing Covid) world in 2021. We have been warned to expect cuts to playing lists and soft cap restrictions which will impact the club's ability to keep fringe players on lists and retired players in paid roles. Whatever happens, I hope Jetta's retirement, whenever it occurs, is handled with the grace it deserves. (And the same for Jones, too.) 

[Lucifers Hero 39,819]

1 hour ago, Rusty Nails said:

As per the late John Kennedy's famous cry "Do something, don't just think....DO!"

Many good points in that post, RN.  Just want to focus on this aspect.

Jordan Lewis said the other evening it is quite difficult for coaches to change things mid quarters.  But how many unanswered goals is tolerable before the leaders on field do something:  2 maybe 3 goals?  (I'm not sure Max playing last week mattered in this regard as on-field in-game direction/adjustments hasn't been a strength).

A bit rhetorical but do our leaders have a licence to make changes, especially when the ops are getting on top or a specified run of goals?  Undoubtedly May and Lever could see the bulldogs dominance upfield unfold before their very eyes but do they have licence to do something?  Or did the official leaders listen. 

No idea the answer to those questions but I think on field leaders need to take some responsibility for last week's lack of action after x unanswered goals.  They needed to do something!

 

Just hope the leaders go in with some action plans this week:  if op does A or B happens our options are x,y,z, if they do C or D happens our options are m,n,o etc.  No need to wait for coaches.  Unless they don't have licence from the coach to take action, which is unimaginable really. 

Failing all that the captain goes to the bench and gets on the phone to the coach!!

Edited August 28, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[#36 11]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:05 PM, Nelo said:

I know Bedford is playing as a forward but he has great endurance. Could he play mid for sparrow? Or is this something for the future years?

more of a forward, wouldn't say he was muscular enough for midfield, look what happened to sparrow, i'd bring bedford in for melksham and play trac and brayshaw in the middle 

[Red and Blue realist 2,051]

I think we need to get Tomlinson back to the wing, he's performed ok, but not good/great, as a key defender but I think that wastes his biggest asset which is his ability to run and his height. He should be stationed on the opposite wing to the ruck for any kick outs. It at least give the opposition something to think about and he would tower over Hill and Z.Jones. AVB can still play up as a higher forward, and nearly take Sparrow's spot. I'd then look at bringing in Hunt for Hannan, I don't see that we can play all 3 of Melk, Fritsch and Hannan in the same team.

By changes:

In: Gawn, OMac and Hunt

Out: Preuss, Sparrow and Hannan

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

On 8/25/2020 at 1:45 PM, Lucifer's Hero said:

If that is one that Lyon referred to as 'Hollywood' not sure Petracca had much choice. 

The tap landed so that he had his back to our goals.  He knew Viney and Oliver were behind him.  He had Liberatore right in front ready to pounce.  The vision was wide enough to see if he was coralled in.  So he hand balled backwards.  It didn't work. 

I had the impression Preuss tapped to the wrong spot. The set-up looked like the tap would go to Viney or Oliver and they would pass to Pretacca who had a straight run to goal.

A lot of our taps went to the wrong spot last Saturday.

Yeah, I think Gaz was off the mark with his assessment of that one.

I could pick out 50 areas of improvement before I get to us being too flashy and besides, it really is one of Trac's strengths, being able to see what's around him and make a creative play rather than a passive one.

He missed one and he'll miss again but he's not the kind of player I'd be encouraging to make the safe play.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Many good points in that post, RN.  Just want to focus on this aspect.

Jordan Lewis said the other evening it is quite difficult for coaches to change things mid quarters.  But how many unanswered goals is tolerable before the leaders on field do something:  2 maybe 3 goals?  (I'm not sure Max playing last week mattered in this regard as on-field in-game direction/adjustments hasn't been a strength).

A bit rhetorical but do our leaders have a licence to make changes, especially when the ops are getting on top or a specified run of goals?  Undoubtedly May and Lever could see the bulldogs dominance upfield unfold before their very eyes but do they have licence to do something?  Or did the official leaders listen. 

No idea the answer to those questions but I think on field leaders need to take some responsibility for last week's lack of action after x unanswered goals.  They needed to do something!

Just hope the leaders go in with some action plans this week:  if op does A or B happens our options are x,y,z, if they do C or D happens our options are m,n,o etc.  No need to wait for coaches.  Unless they don't have licence from the coach to take action, which is unimaginable really.

I think in a major way (significant change up of style) i would agree LH but i do think a few minor tweaks are possible, depending on the amount of change and the degree of difficulty required.

However like any 'way' of playing, the coach would need to show them the how, why along with the manner/techniques... and then they train it.

I heard a player or might have been a coach (might have been woosher in the Bomber's draw with GC not sure?) asked a few weeks ago, "do you ever train for that last few minutes scenario coming from behind in a nail biter?" and the response was "Yes we have a drill for it that we act out and train for it at least once during a training session" or something to that effect.

It got me thinking if they can train for these scenarios then surely they are capable of training for things like....

> Man on man through the middle and / or front half for X amount of time before reverting back to usual type (eg; rolling zone, diamond zone etc)

> Slow play / maintaining possession off and across HB

> Lock down / Run with on player X and/or Y (or other) as required by our player A & B until told otherwise

Etc.

The above separate to say a major positional change up such as May to CHF or something similar if the game is almost gone a la Hooker y'day arvo.

While i agree, major changes "in game" would be very difficult to pull off in my mind surely ones that the players know and have been instructed in and trained for can't be impossible?

As for on field leadership, i believe your senior leadership and other players / captains can and should be capable of  coaching 'method / structure' individually.  But imv the coach is the one who decides when/which method of change should be brought in at any particular time.  They see more from up high and have a full view of the ground plus more eyes on the entire scene.  They also aren't caught up in the heat or role of the moment nor under physical stress / exhaustion which might have an effect on a player's judgement / decision making in game.

Among other things, the the coach is there for very good reasons such as these and that's what he gets paid to do and do well imv.  Some doing it better than others, including training it onto the playing group till it becomes second nature to most, or at least those that are capable.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Rusty Nails

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

A bit rhetorical but do our leaders have a licence to make changes, especially when the ops are getting on top or a specified run of goals?  Undoubtedly May and Lever could see the bulldogs dominance upfield unfold before their very eyes but do they have licence to do something?  Or did the official leaders listen. 

I'm really interested in this idea.

The problem with this is that in the two losses we've had in the last 5-6 weeks, they've been effort-based, not structural.

Can you plan for a lack of effort?

You'll note, Goodwin made a significant change late in the 3rd qtr against the Doggies, bringing the backs up the field to assist the mids.

It worked to stem the tide but I can see why he was reticent to use it earlier as it opens up the space behind - an issue that we've been able to somewhat eradicate during Goodwin's tenure.

Personally, I think the focus needs to be on getting these guys to maintain a really consistent level of pressure. We get that right and our current structure and gameplan will look a million dollars.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Cheesy D. Pun

[Lucifers Hero 39,819]

30 minutes ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

I'm really interested in this idea.

The problem with this is that in the two losses we've had in the last 5-6 weeks, they've been effort-based, not structural.

Can you plan for a lack of effort?

You'll note, Goodwin made a significant change late in the 3rd qtr against the Doggies, bringing the backs up the field to assist the mids.

It worked to stem the tide but I can see why he was reticent to use it earlier as it opens up the space behind - an issue that we've been able to somewhat eradicate during Goodwin's tenure.

Personally, I think the focus needs to be on getting these guys to maintain a really consistent level of pressure. We get that right and our current structure and gameplan will look a million dollars.

I like to think there is room for positional changes as well as extra effort.  In the 3rd against the dogs we had no defensive pressure in our f50 so they waltzed the ball out and down the wings.  So hypothetically could Harmes and/or Dunkley Lochhardt have swapped with Fritsch and/or Melksham to curb Johanson's and Crozier's drive from their d50 after 3 goals and change the tempo of the game?  That may be a silly example but I would like to think there are some things the captain can do or suggest to the coach at their next rotation.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,787]

1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I like to think there is room for positional changes as well as extra effort.  Against the dogs we had no defensive pressure in our f50 so they waltzed the ball out and down the wings.  So hypothetically could Harmes and/or Dunkley swapped with Fritsch and/or Melksham to curb Johanson's and Crozier's drive from their d50 after 3 goals and change the tempo of the game?  That may be a silly example but I would like to think there are some things the captain can do or suggest to the coach at their next rotation.

Who?

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 hour ago, #36 said:

more of a forward, wouldn't say he was muscular enough for midfield, look what happened to sparrow

Huh?

Copped an injury from a bump similar to one Viney has previously copped. Is Viney not 'muscular enough for midfield' as well?

 

[Lucifers Hero 39,819]

5 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Who?

Fixed.

[spirit of norm smith 16,462]

Membrey v Dees 

5,4,1,2,2,4,4,3.  25 goals in last 8 games. (Av 3.125) And 55 marks  (Av 6.9) 

what’s the answer this time 

So previously we had Oscar or Joel Smith go to him.  He has been too strong or even too agile for our defenders in the past !!

 

[DubDee 25,885]

9 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Membrey v Dees 

5,4,1,2,2,4,4,3.  25 goals in last 8 games. (Av 3.125) And 55 marks  (Av 6.9) 

what’s the answer this time 

So previously we had Oscar or Joel Smith go to him.  He has been too strong or even too agile for our defenders in the past !!

 

Steve May will smash him.  Good size match up and May has the strength to go with him.  Hopefully no King playing and Lever can intercept. Tomo take the other fwd

[DemonOX 8,791]

2 hours ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I think we need to get Tomlinson back to the wing, he's performed ok, but not good/great, as a key defender but I think that wastes his biggest asset which is his ability to run and his height. He should be stationed on the opposite wing to the ruck for any kick outs. It at least give the opposition something to think about and he would tower over Hill and Z.Jones. AVB can still play up as a higher forward, and nearly take Sparrow's spot. I'd then look at bringing in Hunt for Hannan, I don't see that we can play all 3 of Melk, Fritsch and Hannan in the same team.

By changes:

In: Gawn, OMac and Hunt

Out: Preuss, Sparrow and Hannan

Hilarious, we get Tomo in as a speedy winger and now he is playing in the backline.

He has now been Melbourneised.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Lord Nev

[Wiseblood 24,637]

15 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Steve May will smash him.  Good size match up and May has the strength to go with him.  Hopefully no King playing and Lever can intercept. Tomo take the other fwd

If King doesn't play, then May is the perfect match up.  Has the pace to go with him further up the ground, and is strong enough in the contest as well.  

The only bonus of King being out that matters to me, is that we can stick May on Membrey.  He worries me more than King, as he is not much different from his brother and May smashed him earlier in the season.

On Max - unless he is 100% then we shouldn't play him, especially as they have Marshall and Ryder in the ruck who can run him in to the ground.  Preuss might get another run by default but Marshall will dominate around the ground on him.  That is the biggest worry for me at the moment.

Edit - and just as I say that, Goodwin confirms Max is back!  So you can ignore that last paragraph!

Edited August 28, 2020 by Wiseblood

[DemonOX 8,791]

8 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

 

 

I really hope Max is right. Smells of desperation IMO.

Jones is back but we need speed, doesn't make much sense but then again some of the selections that have been made have been head scratching.

Edited August 28, 2020 by DemonOX

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Just now, DemonOX said:

I really hope Max is right. Smells of desperation IMO.

Jones is back but we need speed, doesn't make much sense.

It's definitely a case of desperation, but that's where our season stands at the moment.

Expecting we see a big of speed among the other changes when the teams comes out.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, DemonOX said:

I really hope Max is right. Smells of desperation IMO.

Jones is back but we need speed, doesn't make much sense.

It will smell of desperation if Gawn doesn't play well.  If he is right to go, then it's the right decision.  

Jones make sense from a defensive point of view.  Yeah, he doesn't have speed to burn, but he has been playing more as a defensive half forward over the last few weeks.  He will come in handy in helping to potentially stop their run off half back.

[DemonOX 8,791]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

It will smell of desperation if Gawn doesn't play well.  If he is right to go, then it's the right decision.  

Jones make sense from a defensive point of view.  Yeah, he doesn't have speed to burn, but he has been playing more as a defensive half forward over the last few weeks.  He will come in handy in helping to potentially stop their run off half back.

Has Jones stopped any teams run of half back previously?

I like Jones I just think the game has passed him by.

I really hope he retires and its done right as he deserves that much.

[old55 23,593]

It's a line in the sand game - if you can't see that then you need a visit to the optometrist.  There was absolutely no way Max was not going to play.  No players are at "100%" at this time in the season - all are carrying some sort of niggle.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Pollyanna

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,736]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Huh?

Copped an injury from a bump similar to one Viney has previously copped. Is Viney not 'muscular enough for midfield' as well?

 

LOL

Remember Tom McDonald bumping Stewart before the first bounce and breaking his collar bone?

Has nothing to do with someones muscle size