Game plans, tactics and all that jazz

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

On 30/04/2024 at 14:21, Binmans PA said:

Good post, @binman. I'd argue you don't even need 5 or 6 elite kicks to pull this off. 2-3 is fine, because it's really the exit kicks rather than the kicks inside 50 that are the score creating disposals. The reason being we're often kicking into space with forwards running back towards goal. Most of our mids can hit those kicks. Trac is an beautifully penetrating and attacking field kick for example.

Not quite in agreement with this but you are not far off. Our problem of years gone by is we are not creative going into 50. Now you can debate system and method as reasons why, but we always butchered our i50 kicking by bombing it long when there were clearly better options. This is why we got Billings as a HF. To me, having both talent by foot at HB and HF is the magical formula, because you can create the transition by using the space and move it quickly and use the HF kicking to hit targets. You are right about Trac in that when we get out the back, he is much more accurate in putting the kick (with precision) in the space behind the defence.  

[DeeZone 9,595]

Did anyone watch Footy Classified last night according to Bartel the way the cats create space and the free man in forward 50, they will be almost impossible to beat, he and Mathew Lloyd showed instant after instant where cats opened up space in their F50. Both agreed that Cats would beat Dees no probs. The instances that they showed did not include MFC defence.!! I remarked to my wife this is such a rubbish show and turned it off.

Edited May 2 by DeeZone

[M_9 2,078]

3 minutes ago, DeeZone said:

Did anyone watch Footy Classified last night according to Bartel the way the cats create space and the free man in forward 50, they will be almost impossible to beat, he and Mathew Lloyd showed instant after instant where cats opened up space in their F50. Both agreed that Cats would beat Dees no probs. The instances that they showed did not include MFC defence.!!

I didn’t see the show but I seem to remember Montagne saying that Miers is the best at delivering the ball i50 by some margin.

Judd may be the best match there. Need someone to put Miers under more pressure than the Blues backs could muster.

[Roost it far 8,121]

Geelong haven’t played the best defence in the world yet. I reckon they’ll take away some learnings from this week. 

[M_9 2,078]

1 minute ago, Roost it far said:

Geelong haven’t played the best defence in the world yet. I reckon they’ll take away some learnings from this week. 

Win, lose or draw against the Cats I reckon, similarly, we’ll take away some learnings from this game into the Blues game. Same venue, similarly strong opposition both with two power forwards and both with midfields and a backline IMO we can beat.

[jnrmac 20,050]

18 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Not quite in agreement with this but you are not far off. Our problem of years gone by is we are not creative going into 50. Now you can debate system and method as reasons why, but we always butchered our i50 kicking by bombing it long when there were clearly better options. This is why we got Billings as a HF. To me, having both talent by foot at HB and HF is the magical formula, because you can create the transition by using the space and move it quickly and use the HF kicking to hit targets. You are right about Trac in that when we get out the back, he is much more accurate in putting the kick (with precision) in the space behind the defence.  

Because we have always played defence first we have been very timid when we go fwd lest a t/over occurs in a vulnerable spot. Players don't look inboard as much as they should when streaming into the f50 because it has been drilled out of them.

[Blistering 538]

Coach tells a mid sized player that his role this week is predominantly a between the arc high half forward. What does that involve and which player(s)’s game does that role resemble?

Asking for a friend.

[binman 42,497]

3 hours ago, Blistering said:

Coach tells a mid sized player that his role this week is predominantly a between the arc high half forward. What does that involve and which player(s)’s game does that role resemble?

Asking for a friend.

@Blistering can't quite tell if this is a wind up.

But I'll assume not and play with a straight bat.

The high half forward (HHF) role has become one of the most important in AFL football.

Daniel Hoyne from champion data said many times last season that the key reason for the blues' turnaround was sorting the HFF role. Cotteral for example has become super important to them.

That's because the HFF role is key to the transition game and turning turnovers into scores and defending turnovers.

To excel in the HHF role a player needs to be an elite athlete with a huge tank who can cover ground quickly.

Similar to the role langers plays as a winger, it Involves gut running from box to box, in soccer parlance.

In footy it's forward pocket to back pocket all game providing defensive cover in defence as part of an all team zone defensive system.

The defensive cover includes direct defensive actions in rhe opponents forward half (ie helping our defence) like spoiling, smothers and tackles.

And indirect defensive actions like blocking switch options or sprinting to a mark to stop a player immediately playing on.

The HFF does those same defensive actions when the ball is in our forward half - with the indirect actions being critical in terms of making it harder to transition the ball from their back half.

When we transition the ball from our back half the HFF gut runs to get ahead of the ball to either spread the opposition (ie an opponent has to run and cover him) or be an option to kick to.

The latter includes being a target inside 50. 

And of course in addition to all of that, snag the occasional crumbing or stoppage goal.

Some HHFs might be more forward orientated and play a bit closer to goal. Chandler is a good example.

Others might have assists as a kpi and be one of the players teams want kicking inside 50 (though all will be expected to hit up leading targets). Miers is a good example.

The best HFF in the AFL?

Nibbla hands down.

Don't believe me? Have a listen to Andy's brilliant interview with Kade Chandler.

From 13.17 in the player at the top of this page Kade discusses the small forward role (but is referring to the HHF role). 

He defines it much more succinctly than I just have and pumps up nibbla as the HHF exemplar.

Edited May 2 by binman

[Blistering 538]

3 hours ago, binman said:

@Blistering can't quite tell if this is a wind up.

But I'll assume not and play with a straight bat.

The high half forward (HHF) role has become one of the most important in AFL football.

Daniel Hoyne from champion data said many times last season that the key reason for the blues' turnaround was sorting the HFF role. Cotteral for example has become super important to them.

That's because the HFF role is key to the transition game and turning turnovers into scores and defending turnovers.

To excel in the HHF role a player needs to be an elite athlete with a huge tank who can cover ground quickly.

Similar to the role langers plays as a winger, it Involves gut running from box to box, in soccer parlance.

In footy it's forward pocket to back pocket all game providing defensive cover in defence as part of an all team zone defensive system.

The defensive cover includes direct defensive actions in rhe opponents forward half (ie helping our defence) like spoiling, smothers and tackles.

And indirect defensive actions like blocking switch options or sprinting to a mark to stop a player immediately playing on.

The HFF does those same defensive actions when the ball is in our forward half - with the indirect actions being critical in terms of making it harder to transition the ball from their back half.

When we transition the ball from our back half the HFF gut runs to get ahead of the ball to either spread the opposition (ie an opponent has to run and cover him) or be an option to kick to.

The latter includes being a target inside 50. 

And of course in addition to all of that, snag the occasional crumbing or stoppage goal.

Some HHFs might be more forward orientated and play a bit closer to goal. Chandler is a good example.

Others might have assists as a kpi and be one of the players teams want kicking inside 50 (though all will be expected to hit up leading targets). Miers is a good example.

The best HFF in the AFL?

Nibbla hands down.

Don't believe me? Have a listen to Andy's brilliant interview with Kade Chandler.

From 13.17 in the player at the top of this page Kade discusses the small forward role (but is referring to the HHF role). 

He defines it much more succinctly than I just have and pumps up nibbla as the HHF exemplar.

Def. not a wind up but rather, a real life situation. My son’s been given that role in his game this weekend and I’ve passed on your thoughts which agree with mine. Thanks.

[binman 42,497]

58 minutes ago, Blistering said:

Def. not a wind up but rather, a real life situation. My son’s been given that role in his game this weekend and I’ve passed on your thoughts which agree with mine. Thanks.

No problems @Blistering.

A son of Blistering has to be super quick, so he's got one key attribute nailed down.

The other thing I'd add is I reckon a key metric for the HHF role is score involvements because they are so often links in scoring chains.

Edited May 2 by binman

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

Great to see flexibility of game style against a formidable opponent.

The all team defence (inclusive of forwards and midfields) to spread them wide (wings) on transition from our back half, and the gut running was superb. Even if we had of lost, the evidence is there that we match them comfortably.

 

[Wrecker46 2,961]

After hearing May's interview after the game where he was talking about adding more strings to our bow i am convinced we are working towards the Bang Bang Bang game plan.

Losing straight sets the last 2 years where we went into the finals battered and predictable (but reliable) we are currently playing a game plan where we switch and come in from different angles and move the ball quickly from defence. We are starting to go alright at it but our best players aren't elite kicks.

Our team is built for the game plan of contested footy locking it into our forward half and great defence which probably would have worked last year if Melk, Petty or even Disco played. This year we have McAdam to add.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we keep playing our new brand for most of the year and switch back to the Bang Bang Bang style as the finals aproach which suits our elite players but we have a plan b if we hit trouble and need to be a bit more dynamic

 

Edited May 4 by Wrecker46

[Adam The God 30,074]

The approach tonight that was noticeable was our keepings off game at half back. We only played it in the first half, but it was really good tempo footy, because it meant 1) they didn't have it and 2) we weren't dumping it long down the line to see it slingshot straight back at us.

I was at the game, but hadn't clocked how often we used uncontested marks until getting home and watching the replay. What was interesting was hearing that we apparently have the most uncontested marks in the competition this season. 

Can anyone confirm this? I hadn't really noticed how heavily we were relying on this until watching the replay.

We were also far more prepared to switch and go fast tonight than we have for the last few weeks.

[binman 42,497]

8 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

The approach tonight that was noticeable was our keepings off game at half back. We only played it in the first half, but it was really good tempo footy, because it meant 1) they didn't have it and 2) we weren't dumping it long down the line to see it slingshot straight back at us.

I was at the game, but hadn't clocked how often we used uncontested marks until getting home and watching the replay. What was interesting was hearing that we apparently have the most uncontested marks in the competition this season. 

Can anyone confirm this? I hadn't really noticed how heavily we were relying on this until watching the replay.

We were also far more prepared to switch and go fast tonight than we have for the last few weeks.

Not sure about the uncontested mark stat  I'll check.

But we used a very similar tactic against the dogs - ie using uncontested marks to control the tempo, frustrate the dog's ability to get into a rhythm and transition the ball from their back half.

In that game we had 141 marks (the second most under goody), in this game we had 117

And i suspect a high % were in the first half, as was the case against the Dogs.

I think that is part of a strategy to not let those teams settle into how they want the game to look.

There is an interesting parallel between the dogs and cats.

Both teams are helmed by coaches that like to tactically mess with their opponents in terms of having specific strategies that disrupt opponents game plans and method. 

But in both games it was us who disrupted their method and refused to let them settle into their preferred method.

Scott reckon his players were off at the start.

Whilst he is right, the reason they were off is we never allowed them to settle into a rhythm because goody schooled scott (supposedly a tactical genius) tactically.

I hope the media point that out, but I won't hold my breath.

[binman 42,497]

Fascinating game tactically.

One thing i didn't realise about the cats until this week was how direct they are.

The least number of possessions per goal and the most long kicks, usually opting to kick long to a contest rather than short, and back themselves in to mark, or half the contest and win the ground ball.

Goody had another tactical win in that regard. Petty almost played as a quasi mid, following the ball and frequently getting up the ground to impact aerial contests.

Disco was a more traditional forward, but also got up the ground to hir aeriel contest.

Roo spent a lot of time on the ball, taking 22% of ruck contests (against a season average of 14%) and did a great job of hitting areil contests hard.

As they usually do they tried to take maxy away from the ball, but he still had an impact aerialy.

We knew coming in the cats would look to kick long to a contest and dominate aerially.

So goody reduced the amount of aeriel contests by implementing an uncontested marking plan and made sure we had good representation at any pack mark contest.

One measure or the success of the latter tactic was, on a night that was definitely very slippery, that we smashed them in the air, taking a whopping 8 more contested marks (16-8).

Well played goody.

Edited May 5 by binman

[Webber 10,453]

7 minutes ago, binman said:

8 more contested

And I’d happily claim those as all Harrison Petty’s. It bemuses me how quickly people forget about previously exposed form and talent. Petty showed us last night, in the most emphatic terms, why he’s so highly rated by the FD. Why they gave him the leeway to build form with first 22 exposure off the back of a big rehab and limited pre-season, and why he’s essential to our attacking strategy. Yep, attacking. As a forward. A roaming CHF type who has creative versatility. Sure, he’s a great KPD, but after ~ 10 games playing as a forward, (with a back 6 playing great footy) its blindingly obvious where and how he’s most valuable to this current team. Not the 2021 team, the 2024 team. Well done Harry. 

[Demonsterative 3,020]

How big a role is McQualter having in these strategic nuances this season? It seems the club has moved from a ‘we play our game and put it up against the opposition’, to we play to our strength and be more dimensional in how we take away the oppositions strengths strategy. 
 

btw, I am loving all the expert commentary from binman and others in the this thread. 

[DeeSpencer 25,396]

Still some meat on the bone with trusting the quick handball to the runner, especially when it’s Rivers and hopefully Bowser soon.

One thing I’m not loving is the starting position for our spare back from midfield stoppages. I reckon Riv is too far boundary and in no man’s land. Not close enough to pressure, not corridor enough to counter run and not deep enough to defend. Look out for it at games, seems very odd to me.

Im liking the ruck going in to forward 50 stoppages and a mid - Viney or Sparrow sitting out. Don’t like when a ruck and a mid both sit outside 50 tho. One or the other.

And we gave up a goal late last night when Oliver pulled himself out late to sit 15m off a stoppage and let Miers clear it, that made no sense to me. Lock it in when you get the chance and go repeat stoppage after repeat stoppage if you can.

What I am loving is the switching and choosing to re-enter the 50 from other angles.

And we’re starting to see some creative corridor run at times. The Langdon to Windsor across the midfield kick, in to Tracc then inside 50 was delicious. 

[whatwhat say what 22,592]

15 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

One thing I’m not loving is the starting position for our spare back from midfield stoppages. I reckon Riv is too far boundary and in no man’s land. Not close enough to pressure, not corridor enough to counter run and not deep enough to defend. Look out for it at games, seems very odd to me.

deliberate tactic

most teams will choose to go boundary side if they can get a clean exit out of a stoppage

by protecting the defensive side we're encouraging them to bring the ball into open play, which in turn works to empower our turnover game

[DeeSpencer 25,396]

34 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

deliberate tactic

most teams will choose to go boundary side if they can get a clean exit out of a stoppage

by protecting the defensive side we're encouraging them to bring the ball into open play, which in turn works to empower our turnover game

Sure, but he’s guarding the least dangerous space, without the ability to get immediate pressure to force a turnover, nor the ability to quickly counter.

If a team gets a clean entry from the stoppage in to the corridor and goes inside 50 to the fat side he’s not involved in the play at all. And given most teams roll their half forward up to the corridor side of the stoppage his direct opponent is taking a dangerous spot. 
 

 

Edited May 5 by DeeSpencer

[Wrecker46 2,961]

3 hours ago, binman said:

 

Scott reckon his players were off at the start.

Whilst he is right, the reason they were off is we never allowed them to settle into a rhythm because goody schooled scott (supposedly a tactical genius) tactically.

I hope the media point that out, but I won't hold my breath.

True story - my 70 year old aunty who is dye hard geelong and goes every week, has done for decades said exactly the same same thing after the game. Completely out coached.

If the media can't see it and my aunty can she should be on tv. Probably tougher than Chris Scott too.

[Fritta and Turner 4,300]

Can someone tell me what role or position Windsor was playing in the first quarter?  Seemed to be on Cameron and Dempsey at some stages.

[binman 42,497]

12 minutes ago, Fritta and Turner said:

Can someone tell me what role or position Windsor was playing in the first quarter?  Seemed to be on Cameron and Dempsey at some stages.

Wing - and im pretty sure for the whole quarter.

Not sure about Dempsey, but id say Cameron was on Windsor at times, no vice versa in the sense that Cameron set up at a few center square restarts on the wing.

That said Windsor was def part of the combined efforts to shut Cameron down.  

[Fritta and Turner 4,300]

3 hours ago, binman said:

Wing - and im pretty sure for the whole quarter.

Not sure about Dempsey, but id say Cameron was on Windsor at times, no vice versa in the sense that Cameron set up at a few center square restarts on the wing.

That said Windsor was def part of the combined efforts to shut Cameron down.  

So Windsor takes Cameron when Cameron pushes up the ground to leave TMc in the back line??

Not sure why Windsor was chasing Dempsey from the back pocket

[binman 42,497]

Just now, Fritta and Turner said:

So Windsor takes Cameron when Cameron pushes up the ground to leave TMc in the back line??

Not sure why Windsor was chasing Dempsey from the back pocket

No, I don't think Windsor was on Cameron as such. 

When Cameron pushes up he basically plays as a winger. Windsor might have stood him at centre bounces but after that they go their own ways.

I'm not sure, but I doubt anyone played man on man with Cameron once he left their forward 50.

We would have just relied on our all team defence to negate him, and any other plsyer getting the ball in space.

Windsor would have been chasing Dempsey in the back pocket because like langers he gets deep into defence to help out our d.

He did a number of key defensive acts deep in their forward line.