The main reason, I don't want him to go, is that Geelong get exactly what they need to replace their A grade inside mid, Selwood, without having to spend even 5 minutes outside the 8.

I can't stand that club

On 9/12/2020 at 12:29 PM, rufus said:

If he wants to leave in part because he was replaced as captain then best for everyone that he goes. This club has long suffered from the interests of the individual being put before the team. If the club thought a change of captain was justified, then a good team player would cop it on the chin and get on with it.

Any chance we have of meaningful cultural change starts with the dog taking back it's own tail.

Careful what you  wish for.

Many on here are doing the obvious Looking at Jacks faults And not his strengths.

Can  I remind You of three of our best wins in the last 4 seasons being Eagles in Round  14 Jacks inspiration was heroic in getting us across  the line.

He was Easily  in our Best 3 in both the Elim and Semi Finals wins vs Cats and Hawks  after a long injury lay off. 

I can't see who in our Club can replace his physicality and agression.

Yes he is selfish and I was not pleased agsin last night about this part of his game. But what rules are our mids set to play with?  It all comes back to team football and first option and might I say kicking in his right foot more as he is pinged immediately as left side very dominant. 
 

On 9/12/2020 at 4:15 PM, Lord Nev said:

If Viney goes it's because he wants to leave; not because the club doesn't want him.

 

Have the club even offered him a contract? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere though to be fair I haven't read through this thread or even read many articles on this

I would be shattered to see Viney leave, he's not my favourite but he is a genuine heart and soul player who I thought was single-minded in his desire to see Melbourne be successful. A 2nd generation player and 2nd generation captain of the club who wanted to do what his dad couldn't and bring some success to the club. To have him walk out would be embarrassing and saddening

10 hours ago, Skuit said:

In a way this is a similar discussion to the Nathan Jones 300-games one. Sentimentality and club-culture vs. hard-headed list management. I don't like where this one is going though (and that recent quote was just ugly). Most of Jack's life has felt predestined, but losing the captaincy wasn't in the script (and also not something I supported). Even with his evident limitations (and I think they were being overstated a little bit last night), I want Jack Viney in my football team every day of the week. And I want him to be happy. The club needs to sort this out pronto. Never has it been harder to imagine one of our players in another team's colours. The fact that Geelong reportedly want him as a Selwood replacement should be enough to give us pause and reflect on his worth to our club. 

Demonland wants Vandenberg in the team because he makes teammates walk taller getting 6 or 7 touches a games yet is happy to see the back of Viney? Maybe we can sign ANB, Hannan or Wagner up for a few more years with the money we save on Viney. Give me strength.

7 hours ago, A F said:

Greater efficiency and balance from stoppage and contest.

Who is in our midfield rotation next year (when normal length quarters resume)? Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Harmes? Salem? VDB? Melksham? Sparrow...

I think some are understating Viney's value. We wouldn't want to lose Viney and then have Brayshaw considering his career after another headknock. It would be pretty slim pickings.

Edited September 13, 20204 yr by Dr. Gonzo

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Who is in our midfield rotation next year (when normal length quarters resume)? Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Harmes? Salem? VDB? Melksham? Sparrow...

I think some are understating Viney's value. We wouldn't want to lose Viney and then have Brayshaw considering his career after another headknock. It would be pretty slim pickings.

Williams should be able to chip in all going well

Just now, adonski said:

Williams should be able to chip in all going well

IF we could land him (which is no more than a wish at this stage) we would be playing him off half back or maybe a wing. He wouldn't get much time in the middle.

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Who is in our midfield rotation next year (when normal length quarters resume)? Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Harmes? Salem? VDB? Melksham? Sparrow...

I think some are understating Viney's value. We wouldn't want to lose Viney and then have Brayshaw considering his career after another headknock. It would be pretty slim pickings.

I think we've shown in the last 2-3 games we want a different mix in there with ANB and Melksham in there as well.

I'd say Oliver and/or Petracca are the first possession mid. Harmes or Melksham as the defensive mid. Brayshaw and ANB as outside mids, if we want to be crude about it, although I think ANB would play a more defensive role too. AVB is probably in there, yeah. 

I think we need to look at how the likes of Geelong set up. They have Dangerfield and Selwood as the Oliver and Petracca comparison and then a defensive minded player and often another runner in there like an ANB.

I don't rate Sparrow, but he'll certainly be played there, as will Jordon. 

It's clear to me this is all about getting a different mix, so we can still defend, but our offence isn't hampered by 2 or 3 guys going for the same ball.

Oliver and Petracca have a really good understanding between them and are both clean below their knees. They rarely get in each other's way, whereas Jack gets in both of their ways.

If Jack ends up staying we'll definitely find a spot for him, but we'll manage without him and have a greater chance IMV to develop a bit more controlled (from our end) unpredictability to our stoppage set ups.

11 hours ago, 58er said:

Careful what you  wish for.

Many on here are doing the obvious Looking at Jacks faults And not his strengths.

Can  I remind You of three of our best wins in the last 4 seasons being Eagles in Round  14 Jacks inspiration was heroic in getting us across  the line.

 

I'll add Adelaide Oval 2017: 30 possessions (15 contested) matched only by Clayton. Viney tore the Crows a new one. 

5 hours ago, A F said:

I think we've shown in the last 2-3 games we want a different mix in there with ANB and Melksham in there as well.

I'd say Oliver and/or Petracca are the first possession mid. Harmes or Melksham as the defensive mid. Brayshaw and ANB as outside mids, if we want to be crude about it, although I think ANB would play a more defensive role too. AVB is probably in there, yeah. 

I think we need to look at how the likes of Geelong set up. They have Dangerfield and Selwood as the Oliver and Petracca comparison and then a defensive minded player and often another runner in there like an ANB.

I don't rate Sparrow, but he'll certainly be played there, as will Jordon. 

It's clear to me this is all about getting a different mix, so we can still defend, but our offence isn't hampered by 2 or 3 guys going for the same ball.

Oliver and Petracca have a really good understanding between them and are both clean below their knees. They rarely get in each other's way, whereas Jack gets in both of their ways.

If Jack ends up staying we'll definitely find a spot for him, but we'll manage without him and have a greater chance IMV to develop a bit more controlled (from our end) unpredictability to our stoppage set ups.

I think it's risky relying on the likes of Melksham (a half forward who has been in poor form or injured for 2 years), ANB (a fringe player who would be considered for delisting if he wasn't contracted), Harmes (another who has been out of form for 2 years albeit not played in his strongest position), AVB (another fringe player with suspect disposal who can barely get hands on the footy) and Brayshaw (a player who has proven to be injury prone throughout his career and is potentially one KO away from retirement - also undergone surgery to his foot which has all but finished the careers of many Melbourne players over the last decade).

If he leaves we deal with it but I hope the club isn't pushing him towards the door. As I asked above, have we even offered him a contract?

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Have the club even offered him a contract? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere though to be fair I haven't read through this thread or even read many articles on this

I would be shattered to see Viney leave, he's not my favourite but he is a genuine heart and soul player who I thought was single-minded in his desire to see Melbourne be successful. A 2nd generation player and 2nd generation captain of the club who wanted to do what his dad couldn't and bring some success to the club. To have him walk out would be embarrassing and saddening

Don't know specifically, but you'd think they would have at least opened up the discussions and/or offers. From what I've heard via both rumour and reasonably 'in the know' people; there's a bit of a cultural disconnect with Jack and some of the younger players. He's everything we think from the outside: hard worker, demanding, serious, but he's not a great communicator or what you'd call a 'people person' so the dynamic just isn't quite working in that way. I think we need that kind of mentality at our club personally, bit like Michael Jordan if you've watched 'The Last Dance', but I'm not sure who it's up to to make it work properly.

I'm torn about him leaving. I can see how it potentially helps the midfield mix. I can also see how it might help our skills in the middle (I've been highly critical of his delivery inside 50 in the past), but we're also a club that struggles in a big way with consistency of effort and 'ruthlessness' which are both things I think Viney brings.

3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Don't know specifically, but you'd think they would have at least opened up the discussions and/or offers. From what I've heard via both rumour and reasonably 'in the know' people; there's a bit of a cultural disconnect with Jack and some of the younger players. He's everything we think from the outside: hard worker, demanding, serious, but he's not a great communicator or what you'd call a 'people person' so the dynamic just isn't quite working in that way. I think we need that kind of mentality at our club personally, bit like Michael Jordan if you've watched 'The Last Dance', but I'm not sure who it's up to to make it work properly.

I'm torn about him leaving. I can see how it potentially helps the midfield mix. I can also see how it might help our skills in the middle (I've been highly critical of his delivery inside 50 in the past), but we're also a club that struggles in a big way with consistency of effort and 'ruthlessness' which are both things I think Viney brings.

If we can't find a way to fit his single minded will to win and his ferocity at the contest into our team that is on us. Getting rid of a player like that for "cultural reasons" would be a damning indictment on the team and club.

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If we can't find a way to fit his single minded will to win and his ferocity at the contest into our team that is on us. Getting rid of a player like that for "cultural reasons" would be a damning indictment on the team and club.

They don't want to 'get rid of him' though, they want to keep him, it's Jack's decision.

it was Jack at his worst on Saturday - continually got caught and turned it over. Looks out of sorts. It was good that he tackled the umps re Mumford. Have mixed feelings about him leaving.

33 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

They don't want to 'get rid of him' though, they want to keep him, it's Jack's decision.

Interesting LN, as jack seems to be saying he wants to stay. I guess it all comes down to contract terms and future playing style.

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Don't know specifically, but you'd think they would have at least opened up the discussions and/or offers. From what I've heard via both rumour and reasonably 'in the know' people; there's a bit of a cultural disconnect with Jack and some of the younger players. He's everything we think from the outside: hard worker, demanding, serious, but he's not a great communicator or what you'd call a 'people person' so the dynamic just isn't quite working in that way. I think we need that kind of mentality at our club personally, bit like Michael Jordan if you've watched 'The Last Dance', but I'm not sure who it's up to to make it work properly.

I'm torn about him leaving. I can see how it potentially helps the midfield mix. I can also see how it might help our skills in the middle (I've been highly critical of his delivery inside 50 in the past), but we're also a club that struggles in a big way with consistency of effort and 'ruthlessness' which are both things I think Viney brings.

Nothing wrong with Viney setting standards and demanding others do the same. That’s leadership in my mind. The problem is his skill deficiencies and other flaws in game. He’s got to back up the demands on others with consistent performances otherwise team mates won’t listen. Why should they when his performances fall short? His value can’t be based on effort alone.

I like Viney. If he’s on our list next year I won’t be upset. But his contract must be proportionate with his capabilities. Fundamentally I don’t think his performances are good enough based on the expectations I have of him as a player.

4 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

They don't want to 'get rid of him' though, they want to keep him, it's Jack's decision.

If they haven't put something on the table for him then they're almost forcing his hand.

I like Viney and don't want him to go, but hypothetically if he came to the conclusion he wanted out then this is what I'd be trying to do.

He's a RFA, so I'd be telling him we're going to match and then look to trade with Geelong, in a similar way they did for Danger. They are pretty good at that sort of stuff. Currently Geelong have draft picks 11 (from GC), 14 (from WC) and their own at 15. 

So I'd propose we trade Viney along with the Hawks 2nd this year and our 1st next year for picks 14 & 15 plus their 2nd and either Narkle or Cockatoo. Essentially it'd be Viney, pick 22 and next years 1st for 14, 15 & 34 plus either Narkle or Cockatoo. 

We get more than what we would from the compo formula for Viney (I'd say he'd be end of 1st, which is 20 depending on other deals), but have to make a bet on next year, then get in a player who would suit our needs but seems surplus to Geelong, while giving up them a significant upgrade in the 2nd round this year. 

We then wouldn't be impacted if we go after Williams.

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If they haven't put something on the table for him then they're almost forcing his hand.

Who's saying they haven't? Gut feel is they would have.

Just now, Lord Nev said:

Who's saying they haven't? Gut feel is they would have.

My interpretation - it would be strange to not have heard about it as either we have offered something which Viney has knocked back to explore his options or we haven't offered anything and advised him to explore his options. Considering he is a free agent and the home and away season is almost finished it's strange we haven't sewn up a new deal for our 26yo VC especially considering how quick we've been to thrown contracts around in the past. The only time I remember a player signing late in the year who ended up staying was Hogan maybe 2017? And then he ended up leaving in 2018 anyway.

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

My interpretation - it would be strange to not have heard about it as either we have offered something which Viney has knocked back to explore his options or we haven't offered anything and advised him to explore his options. Considering he is a free agent and the home and away season is almost finished it's strange we haven't sewn up a new deal for our 26yo VC especially considering how quick we've been to thrown contracts around in the past. The only time I remember a player signing late in the year who ended up staying was Hogan maybe 2017? And then he ended up leaving in 2018 anyway.

Yeah, it's definitely a worry it's getting so late in the season and he's not signed. It's a unique year though with list and cap changes seeming likely. We've got a fair few players you'd think we'd keep that are unsigned still.

You're right though, seems like the type of contract we'd have done by now if he was staying.

8 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I like Viney and don't want him to go, but hypothetically if he came to the conclusion he wanted out then this is what I'd be trying to do.

He's a RFA, so I'd be telling him we're going to match and then look to trade with Geelong, in a similar way they did for Danger. They are pretty good at that sort of stuff. Currently Geelong have draft picks 11 (from GC), 14 (from WC) and their own at 15. 

So I'd propose we trade Viney along with the Hawks 2nd this year and our 1st next year for picks 14 & 15 plus their 2nd and either Narkle or Cockatoo. Essentially it'd be Viney, pick 22 and next years 1st for 14, 15 & 34 plus either Narkle or Cockatoo. 

We get more than what we would from the compo formula for Viney (I'd say he'd be end of 1st, which is 20 depending on other deals), but have to make a bet on next year, then get in a player who would suit our needs but seems surplus to Geelong, while giving up them a significant upgrade in the 2nd round this year. 

We then wouldn't be impacted if we go after Williams.

I love you folk who have a clear understanding of where we sit with picks and drafting .

Thanks for that.

49 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I like Viney and don't want him to go, but hypothetically if he came to the conclusion he wanted out then this is what I'd be trying to do.

He's a RFA, so I'd be telling him we're going to match and then look to trade with Geelong, in a similar way they did for Danger. They are pretty good at that sort of stuff. Currently Geelong have draft picks 11 (from GC), 14 (from WC) and their own at 15. 

So I'd propose we trade Viney along with the Hawks 2nd this year and our 1st next year for picks 14 & 15 plus their 2nd and either Narkle or Cockatoo. Essentially it'd be Viney, pick 22 and next years 1st for 14, 15 & 34 plus either Narkle or Cockatoo. 

We get more than what we would from the compo formula for Viney (I'd say he'd be end of 1st, which is 20 depending on other deals), but have to make a bet on next year, then get in a player who would suit our needs but seems surplus to Geelong, while giving up them a significant upgrade in the 2nd round this year. 

We then wouldn't be impacted if we go after Williams.

If we match the offer he probably stays and there will be no picks and other trades. 

Geelong don't muck around.  They are honest brokers but they drive very hard bargains eg they got Rohan, Dalhaus and Stevens for 3rd round/ 4th round picks but didn't let Kelly ago until they got the deal they wanted which happened a year later.

Geelong will take him as an FA but probably not entertain a trade.  And they are linked to Jeremy Cameron who is also an FA so if they were going to trade for an FA it is more likely Cameron.

If the club believes they have put a fair deal to Jack they should stick to it and let the cards fall where they may.   If he stays it has to be on the clubs terms. 

Edited September 14, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

23 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I like Viney and don't want him to go, but hypothetically if he came to the conclusion he wanted out then this is what I'd be trying to do.

He's a RFA, so I'd be telling him we're going to match and then look to trade with Geelong, in a similar way they did for Danger. They are pretty good at that sort of stuff. Currently Geelong have draft picks 11 (from GC), 14 (from WC) and their own at 15. 

So I'd propose we trade Viney along with the Hawks 2nd this year and our 1st next year for picks 14 & 15 plus their 2nd and either Narkle or Cockatoo. Essentially it'd be Viney, pick 22 and next years 1st for 14, 15 & 34 plus either Narkle or Cockatoo. 

We get more than what we would from the compo formula for Viney (I'd say he'd be end of 1st, which is 20 depending on other deals), but have to make a bet on next year, then get in a player who would suit our needs but seems surplus to Geelong, while giving up them a significant upgrade in the 2nd round this year. 

We then wouldn't be impacted if we go after Williams.

Surely not?

This will divide the Club even more if we let him walk.

Surely he can pick up a portion of Nev or Jonesy's pay packet going forward.

Edited September 14, 20204 yr by Win4theAges