Badwin

The  reason Geelong were able to chip the ball around our fwd half is because we don't man the op.  This allows them to sprint a few metres into space and take easy, uncontested marks as we are constantly chasing them.  It looks like we are playing zone defence in our fwd half. That will never allow enough time to intercept the short chip kick.

Geelong (and WCE and Hawks) consistently play that chip/possession game in defence, against us so I was shocked that Goodwin said that next time we come against that style of team, we will be ready.  Hello!  They have been doing it for years.  Who does our opposition analysis?  And what about counter-tactics?

The frustrating thing is we let them do it all day.  The coach didn't change tactics.

Edited June 29, 20205 yr by Lucifer's Hero

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

Any decent side would have beaten the Cats yesterday. 
Stewart was off early and Atkins was injured early, he had one possession and they had another  injury later, as well as Danger off for most of a quarter. 
We don’t convert opportunities and it is because of the selection of the side, the game plan and the lack of skill of the players. 
Other teams have us worked out and that is why the Cats played that chip game yesterday. 
Name one time when we found a forward leading into space and he was given the ball. 
 We are incapable of maintaining possession of the ball. 
We are a team of hard at it players who lack basic disposal skill. 
With our unbending game plan of bomb it in, we are doomed to more losses than wins. 
The dumb mistakes we make have to be down to Coaching.
The Coach seems unwilling or unable to change. 
I love Viney and Oliver’s attack on the footy but they simply turn it over far too often. Watch the game again and you will see Viney swing into his left and kick it to a pack or nowhere near a teammate. Oliver too often kicks without even looking. He is a shadow of himself in his first year. 
People on here are not against their club if they write what they see, despite some attacking others for not simply showing blind loyalty. 
Any fan watching the last half of the Blues game and yesterday’s game would have to be worried and agree that we play ugly footy that is hard to watch and the footy world seems to agree. 
If we don’t fix up our poor skill, poor game plan and poor selection of the team, we will remain the same.

This above is all true. How about this?

Rd 21, 2018 The Swans had 99 uncontested marks to Melbourne's 61, as the Swans cleverly maintained possession and exposed the Demons' inability to defend by constantly creating the outnumber forward of the ball and making the Demons' defensive press look second-rate.

This was Rd 21 2018! This was the game when Goodwin realised he had to change and after that he made several changes that launched our first finals campaign in 11 years. The Swans chipped the ball all over the ground denying Melbourne possession. They won convincingly.

Up till that point of the season melbourne were average just 10 goals a game and a bucketload of i50s.

Now Goodwin has the gall to claim in the presser that "we coudn't get the ball of them (Geelong)" AND "we'll be better prepared the next time a team tries to do this" Seriously? This guy is a fraud.

We have struggled forward of centre for 6 years. We have struggled with teams that pressure us and with teams that deny us possession.

And Goodwin is surprised by this tactic? The whole league understands this except our genious coaching staff.

I am sick of listening to him justify his position week after week. He is simply not up to it.

As for those saying " we can't change the coach , it won't ake any difference" we have ample evidence that the same rubbish is being served up week in week out yet a coach like Beveridge can win a flag, Fagan can get his team firing, Teague can get his team playing attractive footy and we still look like [censored]. Even when we win we look like [censored].

Goodwin is killing our club. 

 

Edited June 29, 20205 yr by jnrmac

That would have to be the most boring game of football I've seen.  It was 2 teams that had such a great fear of losing that they didn't give themselves a chance to win the game.  Defensive mindsets both sides, it was just ugly.

Our issues, to many underdone players.  Are we looking at 2020 to be a development year to see who is in our best 22.  Bennell would have offered more in 65% game time that most our players.  A lot of posters have already covered this, outside Pickett(developing) and Petracca we have a D grade players up forward.  It is a massive concern for now and the future we don't have a player on our list that can play as an influential key forward, we have a fleet of midsize forwards that are irrelevant due the their ability and more important they way we play.  We can't bomb into our forward line if we don't have the talls to bring it to ground and more importantly the smalls to keep it in there.

I'm assuming that is our plan, use the small mid forwards to keep the ball inside our forward 50m arc any score through pressure, the issue is we don't lay many tackles inside 50, we don't keep the ball in there, why our forwards push so high up the ground when we get the ball inside 50, it is always a 3 V 1 and it comes straight back out.  Every team knows this and lets us push forwards into our mid field as they know we will turn it over going forward and they can attacked from their defensive 50m arc.

Our forwards/Mids don't work hard enough to protect the fat side of the ground and really they are stuffed because they work so hard winning the ball just to see it come straight back out.

An idea, lets try winning a game by having our forwards play forward, I loved the Daniher years as this was his game style if you kick 14 goals we will kick 15 goals, simple win by high scoring, attacking football back your mids and defenders, to win the football and your forwards to score.  I would rather lose playing attacking football than the way we have lost over the past 2 years.

3 minutes ago, Demon3 said:

My concerns with this team are plenty.. but Max wa steh only player that stood up and got us going yesterday, which is great, great captains do that.. but he wa sone out. Although i though May and Lever and Hibbo were really good, in fact our defence held up remarkbly well. I blame our midefield again.. they are such front runners.. it is very frustrating.. the anmount of free space their mids got on rebound contributed to the match being a stinker.. i watched countless times as players ran past Oliver, Viney, Trac to get on the end of the ball.

Its something that has to change a mindset.. when its not on our terms then its a disaster. Also Melk is downright selfish, Fritsch thinks he is Wayne Carey and can wrestle his opponent, AVB was so far off teh pace, strange selection, Hannan was good first up and we need a secong big. Brown must play, he leads at teh ball.. only him and Hunt do it.

Positive we did not get smashed and should have won, negative is we didnt and not alot has changed when it comes to be agile in games to change the course of teh match.

Also how we dont have a fwd coach is shocking!

Good point D3. Maxy was awesome. He was shattered at the end of the 2nd through sheer effort. I was super proud of him. But who was going with him?

Melk has lost me. Lazy and tries too many cute by half things such ss the stupid little dribble in the last quarter. 

On the mids not only did they not run with their opponents they did not gun run to stop those stupid chip kicks they did.

And on that as wars in noted the tigers forward line push hard up the ground to help stop that. Where were ours?

How many times do we see an opposition player run past one of our guys trotting along, whether it be to create an opportunity or to get to a contest. It is infuriating and must be torture to watch as a coaching group. Every single contest matters, that should be the number one rule

 

 

Most fair umpires would have called "play on" to several of these dubious 15mtr passes, not just from a sense of fair play but in the interest of allowing the game to flow. French Island Prison seconds are going to be badly umpired again next week I hope.

1 minute ago, BW511 said:

How many times do we see an opposition player run past one of our guys trotting along, whether it be to create an opportunity or to get to a contest. It is infuriating and must be torture to watch as a coaching group. Every single contest matters, that should be the number one rule

 

 

Agree.

Add not busting a gut chading even when you ate unlikely to caych him to try and least put referred pressure on them.

Melkskam gave up on a chase on the  wing and leaving aside not putting referred pressure on it was a shocking look from a so called leader.

Oliver did something similar and it was made worse by the fact the ball carrier got held up as tbere was no kick on and Oliver would have caught him if he had kept chasing.

51 minutes ago, binman said:

Watson kept saying we needed to change angles to give us better looks. The problem is we dont have players who can reliably do that as it takes skill to cross, weight a ball into a pocket of space, hit a lead up player who has someone right on him, kick flat, kick to advantage etc. In the last 10 years the only player who had the ability to reliably execute these skills was Watts. 

When we did try it, the kicks were so high they would have hit the Docklands roof, and by the time they came down again, the oppo had gone off for a cup of tea and a lie down, and came back fully refreshed to stand shoulder to shoulder with our no-longer-free player to make a contest.

There was an example I remember with Oliver also, a couple of Geelong guys went past him to get to a loose ball, Oliver ended up laying a tackle on one of them but the other one mopped up and away they went.

We need to make the play, not sit back and wait for it to unfold.

 

1 minute ago, Mazer Rackham said:

When we did try it, the kicks were so high they would have hit the Docklands roof, and by the time they came down again, the oppo had gone off for a cup of tea and a lie down, and came back fully refreshed to stand shoulder to shoulder with our no-longer-free player to make a contest.

And we have players who simply do not have the confidence in their skill to cross the ball with a say 50 metre kick. At both ends of the ground. 

Which denies us an attacking option  traps us on one side of the ground  makes us predictable and is a big factor why we end up bombing it in to the top of the goal square.

1 minute ago, BW511 said:

We need to make the play, not sit back and wait for it to unfold.

Correct, but our skill level is such that when we do make the play, we can't keep clean possession for long enough. We either cough it up under pressure, or cough it up just as a good deed to the oppo.

20 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Two terrific selections from our recruiters at the moment.

I love that Rivers is a natural back flanker - he knows when to run and knows when to defend.

Tough nut too, love his attack on the ball and man.

Perfect Hibberd replacement. 

3 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Tough nut too, love his attack on the ball and man.

Perfect Hibberd replacement. 

I hope they persist with him, he is young and will make errors, but his enthusiasm is high and he loves to take the game on.

When he is involved in the play, things seem to happen

He hasn't been infected with the 'play it safe' curse everyone else has

Edited June 29, 20205 yr by BW511

38 minutes ago, Demon3 said:

My concerns with this team are plenty.. but Max wa steh only player that stood up and got us going yesterday, which is great, great captains do that.. but he wa sone out. Although i though May and Lever and Hibbo were really good, in fact our defence held up remarkbly well. I blame our midefield again.. they are such front runners.. it is very frustrating.. the anmount of free space their mids got on rebound contributed to the match being a stinker.. i watched countless times as players ran past Oliver, Viney, Trac to get on the end of the ball.

Its something that has to change a mindset.. when its not on our terms then its a disaster. Also Melk is downright selfish, Fritsch thinks he is Wayne Carey and can wrestle his opponent, AVB was so far off teh pace, strange selection, Hannan was good first up and we need a secong big. Brown must play, he leads at teh ball.. only him and Hunt do it.

Positive we did not get smashed and should have won, negative is we didnt and not alot has changed when it comes to be agile in games to change the course of teh match.

Also how we dont have a fwd coach is shocking!

I think Viney deserves a bit more credit for his performance yesterday. Stood up late in the game to drive us forward a number of times and gave us as good a shot as any at winning that game.

29 minutes ago, binman said:

 

On the mids not only did they not run with their opponents they did not gun run to stop those stupid chip kicks they did.

And on that as wars in noted the tigers forward line push hard up the ground to help stop that. Where were ours?

Good observation.  At one point BT remarked when Geelong had a turnover in their favour that "...this will test the demon mids to man up...)  

They didn't and the Cats ran the ball easily through the centre out of defence.

 

30 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

The  reason Geelong were able to chip the ball around our fwd half is because we don't man the op.  This allows them to sprint a few metres into space and take easy, uncontested marks as we are constantly chasing them.  It looks like we are playing zone defence in our fwd half. That will never allow enough time to intercept the short chip kick.

Geelong (and WCE and Hawks) consistently play that chip/possession game in defence, against us so I was shocked that Goodwin said that next time we come against that style of team, we will be ready.  Hello!  They have been doing it for years.  Who does our opposition analysis?  And what about counter-tactics?

Absolutely Luci !!! It’s been standard procedure for years. When a side starts that chip around stuff you go man on man to force an error/ turnover

The uncontested mark stats from the game are outrageous 

After the game I switched off everything as the loss cut deep. Perhaps the losses feel harder in covid now?

Whats been on my mind, and please forgive if this has been mentioned as Im not going back to re read the thread.

We should have won...easily. Our game style isnt that bad but simple errors were. These goals against plus  not goals for stand out from BASIC errors. 

1. Kozzie misses from 15 metres out on the run under little pressure. FFS, that is a goal 999 times out of a thousand.

2. Fritsch drops an absolute uncontested dolly from a bullet pass from Melksham 20 metres out direct in front. 

3. Its a free everyday of the week to Melksham in the last minute on the 50. If that isnt in the back then nothing is. Melks kicks those.

3. Ratagolia kicks a set shot goal from outside 50 that goes through about head height without us getting a hand to the ball. Terrible error.

4. Dangerfield gets a 50 for diving which leads to a goal . If that was oliver that want to report him or suspend him. Shocking decison. 

5 Hunt and Langdon cant get the ball out of bounds in the dying second of the 3rd. Leading to a goal . WTAF. 

 

Thats FIVE goals and I think , on even just a regular day,  prob 3 or 4 out of the 5 are reversed. On a good day all 5. 

We're not that bad. 

 

37 minutes ago, binman said:

Good point D3. Maxy was awesome. He was shattered at the end of the 2nd through sheer effort. I was super proud of him. But who was going with him?

Melk has lost me. Lazy and tries too many cute by half things such ss the stupid little dribble in the last quarter. 

On the mids not only did they not run with their opponents they did not gun run to stop those stupid chip kicks they did.

And on that as wars in noted the tigers forward line push hard up the ground to help stop that. Where were ours?

Nailed it Binman.

7 minutes ago, Luther said:

I think Viney deserves a bit more credit for his performance yesterday. Stood up late in the game to drive us forward a number of times and gave us as good a shot as any at winning that game.

I love Jack, and he did drive us forward and he is competitive and all that.. but facts are, his kicking isnt great and is that the fwds fault.. i will die on a hill that a moving fwd line creates space.. we dont move.. so what hope have players kicking into the 50 got.

 

Its a real mess. 

15 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Absolutely Luci !!! It’s been standard procedure for years. When a side starts that chip around stuff you go man on man to force an error/ turnover

The uncontested mark stats from the game are outrageous 

It amuses me that opp coaches and players have for a long time openly flagged how they will/did beat us and we don't seem to notice. 

Last year Coll, Rich, Brisb openly said 'match them on the inside, beat them on the outside' and they didn't mean our lack of wing men.  They meant 'let Oliver, Viney et al get the clearance and we get it off them' in the next disposal, from either HTB or well placed players to take advantage of our poor disposal.  Collingwood are merciless at exploiting Viney's no right side and get him HTB then play on.  Oliver's dinky, blind handballs go into a pack with an opp waiting on the outside who quickly plays on.

WCE, Geelong, Hawks and Sydney use the chip/possession to beat us.  Selwood said after the game they deliberately 'ramped up' that side of the game.

That is nearly half the league know how to beat us and they use it mercilessly.  Works 9 times our of 10.

Others are learning the same tricks altho not used as consistently.  In the meantime, we do not respond on the field and our coach makes banal comments like when we click 'look out'.

Edited June 29, 20205 yr by Lucifer's Hero

1 minute ago, Demon3 said:

I love Jack, and he did drive us forward and he is competitive and all that.. but facts are, his kicking isnt great and is that the fwds fault.. i will die on a hill that a moving fwd line creates space.. we dont move.. so what hope have players kicking into the 50 got.

 

Its a real mess. 

Agreed on that.

It is like an episode of yes minister -this from lever post game:

"It was really disappointing to walk off with a loss, but I’m hoping the coaches have a lot of learnings for us from this game and I think as players we have a lot of learnings as well.”

 

Edited June 29, 20205 yr by binman

13 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Yep.

Getting hold of the footy isn't the problem.

Getting it inside 50 isn't a problem.

You could even argue that, right now, we aren't really a problem defensively.  We've given up only 7 goals to each of the two teams we've played.

It's just everything else - how we use it, how we run to position, how we make decisions - that is hurting us the most right now.

We need to fix it, and quickly - but do we have the capacity to do it?  Time will tell.

To me Wise it wasn't even the quality of balls inside the fifty that was the problem, it was the way we allowed them to have the pace of the game played at a crawl. Let them have the game on their terms for about 90%. Whenever we were able to go quick it looked like we had them in trouble. While acknowledging that our delivery needs to be better the instruction at half time should have been to move the ball on at all costs. 

12 hours ago, dee-eee said:

No argument the game was a poor standard but i'm amazed nobody has commented on Tomlinson's hurried set shot at the death .   A senior player should have attempted to settle him down . The game WAS there to win .

Comfortably made the distance, so yes should have steadied.