On 18/11/2019 at 12:35, Dr. Gonzo said:

And Harry Taylor

We were ultimate professionals back then

Not keen on Jackson at 3 or 8 for that matter. Very hard to judge big bodied guys against tiny teens IMO. The ruck position is a very overrated position, how many times did Gawn dominate the ruck last year and we were still smashed in clearances. He's a big boy playing against kids and comparisons to colts games are even worse. Plus we don't need a ruckman, Tigers won a flag with Nankervis and Grigg. When was the last time a dominant ruckmen helped their team win a flag, you'd probably have to go back to Ottens at the Cats and Keating before that?

We do need a KPF goalkicker (that I'm shocked we didn't try or be linked to one), unsure if this guy can fulfill that role? What we do need is clean kickers (not handball machines), fast decision makers, strong overhead and can hit the scoreboard. Who that leaves I'm not sure.

Taylor needs to pull a rabbit (a grade star) out, not impressed by his recruiting so far, he fluked Oliver, but jury is still out on him IMO.

On the limited vision I've seen, perhaps Young and Kemp? Also could Anderson be a chance with pick 3 somehow?

Edited November 18, 20195 yr by SFebes

  On 18/11/2019 at 22:17, SFebes said:

Taylor needs to pull a rabbit (a grade star) out, not impressed by his recruiting so far, he fluked Oliver, but jury is still out on him IMO.

Completely agree. Not sure whether it is he or Mahoney or Goodwin driving our draft strategies, but they have been poor from the Weideman pick onwards.

This is absolutely not the draft to be taking punts on ruckmen and small forwards with high picks. Premierships are won by midfielders and key position players - everything else is secondary.

 

  On 15/11/2019 at 00:26, godees said:

?

Not yet he isnt.

He will only be pick 3 if and when the holder of pick 3  chooses him and hence he becomes pick 3.

If the holder of pick 3 chooses somebody else then that body becomes pick 3.

All the rest is speculation and white noise. The Dees must pick the best player that suits our needs and has plenty of upside.

We listen to the media pundits at our peril.Dont be conned!

Agree he is a big kid against small kids but the junior system these days has some bloody kid capable kids. Many from last year slotted straight in. 
I think there are 10-15 picks in the top 10 if that makes sense that will be fine to move straight in to AFL . 
 

Taylor I am not sure of either but let’s see how he goes with 3 and 8 or whatever it becomes. With Langdon Tomlinson and Bennell in red and blue , I feel we have had a draft already ! This will be a bonus.

  On 18/11/2019 at 22:17, SFebes said:

Not keen on Jackson at 3 or 8 for that matter. Very hard to judge big bodied guys against tiny teens IMO. The ruck position is a very overrated position, how many times did Gawn dominate the ruck last year and we were still smashed in clearances. He's a big boy playing against kids and comparisons to colts games are even worse. Plus we don't need a ruckman, Tigers won a flag with Nankervis and Grigg. When was the last time a dominant ruckmen helped their team win a flag, you'd probably have to go back to Ottens at the Cats and Keating before that?

We do need a KPF goalkicker (that I'm shocked we didn't try or be linked to one), unsure if this guy can fulfill that role? What we do need is clean kickers (not handball machines), fast decision makers, strong overhead and can hit the scoreboard. Who that leaves I'm not sure.

Taylor needs to pull a rabbit (a grade star) out, not impressed by his recruiting so far, he fluked Oliver, but jury is still out on him IMO.

On the limited vision I've seen, perhaps Young and Kemp? Also could Anderson be a chance with pick 3 somehow?

 

The point with Jackson is that he isn’t overpowering smaller kids with his superior strength; he’s spinning through and around them with superior agility and footwork. He’s Naitanui-like outside of a ruck contest. And I completely believe that competent ruckwork can be and often is wholly taught once in the AFL system.

Anyone remember Maxy as a junior? Average ruckwork and got by on far superior height. We took a punt on him because of his size and he developed the character/work ethic.

Jackson through his elite junior basketball journey has demonstrated he already possesses those qualities. The superior athleticism sets him apart.

I just can’t see anyone else at 3 who makes as much sense. 

  On 18/11/2019 at 22:17, SFebes said:

Taylor needs to pull a rabbit (a grade star) out, not impressed by his recruiting so far, he fluked Oliver, but jury is still out on him IMO.

 

  On 18/11/2019 at 22:28, poita said:

Completely agree. Not sure whether it is he or Mahoney or Goodwin driving our draft strategies, but they have been poor from the Weideman pick onwards.

Are you guys actually looking into this properly or are you just assuming because we haven't had any absolute superstars since Oliver that all the picks have been fails? Context is VERY important when looking at these things. No club nails all their picks, and the actual picks Taylor has had at his disposal is the most important thing to consider.

If you want to be talking 'Weideman onwards' (how convenient), then you need to take into account these picks that have been wins:

Josh Wagner - Rookie
Joel Smith -  Rookie
Mitch Hannan - Pick 46
Tim Smith - Rookie
Bailey Fritsch - Pick 31
Harrison Petty - Pick 37
Marty Hore - Pick 56

Jury still out on a fair few that have shown signs (ie - Baker, Sparrow, Bradtke).

2015 we had 2 top 10 picks, but since then our highest pick has been 27 (which was last year).

Oh, and how do you put in years of work on a player and then "fluke" the pick. How ridiculous.

 

  On 18/11/2019 at 22:17, SFebes said:

When was the last time a dominant ruckmen helped their team win a flag, you'd probably have to go back to Ottens at the Cats and Keating before that?

Typical that in my time following the MFC, the only position we've consistently had topline players in is arguably the least important - Stynes, White, Gawn, and (briefly) Jamar, Jolly and Martin (no disrespect to any of those players - all guns in their own right).

However, not many good teams have a genuine spud ruck - guys like Nankervis, Lycett, Vardy, McEvoy et al are all more than handy. Having a big guy that can clunk marks, distribute the ball and throw their weight around is always a valuable asset. But - as others have pointed out, pick 3 seems a high price to pay for this type of player.

  On 18/11/2019 at 22:17, SFebes said:

We do need a KPF goalkicker (that I'm shocked we didn't try or be linked to one), unsure if this guy can fulfill that role?

Big risk IMO - there aren't many good forwards in the afl who didn't play forward and regularly kick bags as a junior. History suggests that forward nous can't be taught very easily, even if a player has all the right physical traits.

I wouldn't necessarily draft Jackson at 3 - but if we do, I hope it's with the vision of a Tim English type player, rather than the hope that he might develop into a decent forward. Not a need at this stage - but (assuming he makes the grade) he won't be any good for 4 years anyway - who knows what our list will look like by then. 

  On 19/11/2019 at 00:31, Lord Nev said:

 

Are you guys actually looking into this properly or are you just assuming because we haven't had any absolute superstars since Oliver that all the picks have been fails? Context is VERY important when looking at these things. No club nails all their picks, and the actual picks Taylor has had at his disposal is the most important thing to consider.

If you want to be talking 'Weideman onwards' (how convenient), then you need to take into account these picks that have been wins:

Josh Wagner - Rookie
Joel Smith -  Rookie
Mitch Hannan - Pick 46
Tim Smith - Rookie
Bailey Fritsch - Pick 31
Harrison Petty - Pick 37
Marty Hore - Pick 56

Jury still out on a fair few that have shown signs (ie - Baker, Sparrow, Bradtke).

2015 we had 2 top 10 picks, but since then our highest pick has been 27 (which was last year).

Oh, and how do you put in years of work on a player and then "fluke" the pick. How ridiculous.

 

I will refrain from judging those players you have mentioned, I like the last two in the list. We haven't had anymore first rounders as we sold the farm for an injury prone player with ACL history, a fat guy whos getting old and came to preseason under prepared and a bloke GC didn't even want. By the way, I do like the ACL guy, but think we paid too much for him. Also you like Jackson and that is OK, I don't want him at pick 3 and that is also OK. Don't get your knickers in a knot.

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by SFebes

  On 19/11/2019 at 01:37, SFebes said:

I will refrain from judging those players you have mentioned, I like the last two in the list. We haven't had anymore first rounders as we sold the farm for an injury prone player with ACL history, a fat guy whos getting old and came to preseason under prepared and a bloke GC didn't even want. By the way, I do like the ACL guy, but think we paid too much for him. Also you like Jackson and that is OK, I don't want him at pick 3 and that is also OK. Don't get your knickers in a knot.

You'll be singing a different tune when Lever and May are MFC Premiership players.

  On 19/11/2019 at 01:40, Fifty-5 said:

You'll be singing a different tune when Lever and May are MFC Premiership players.

Bloody oath I hope so 55. All this drafting and trading is is a bunch of what-ifs and hindsight really. I do like Jake, know his dad through family friends, just think we coughed up too much that's all. I like him for his leadership traits and age profile.

So my next question, seeing as he's more an athlete than a footballer with good skills, would a comparison to Blicavs be close? Or more Nic Nat? Who I think is a bit over hyped also.

  On 19/11/2019 at 01:37, SFebes said:

I will refrain from judging those players you have mentioned, I like the last two in the list. We haven't had anymore first rounders as we sold the farm for an injury prone player with ACL history, a fat guy whos getting old and came to preseason under prepared and a bloke GC didn't even want. By the way, I do like the ACL guy, but think we paid too much for him. Also you like Jackson and that is OK, I don't want him at pick 3 and that is also OK. Don't get your knickers in a knot.

I don't know enough about Jackson to know if I like him or not tbh. I just know the club are really keen on him and some better judges than me think he can walk into our round 1 team next year. I'm as nervous as you probably are about taking a ruck/forward with such a high pick, but I'm backing in the club this time to have a plan in mind if it happens.

No knickers in any knots mate, just think sometimes here we can all not dig deep enough, and for me, this is one of those times (re: Taylor), and you can't blame JT for not having enough first round picks to use, that's not his job.

 

  On 19/11/2019 at 02:27, Lord Nev said:

I don't know enough about Jackson to know if I like him or not tbh. I just know the club are really keen on him and some better judges than me think he can walk into our round 1 team next year. I'm as nervous as you probably are about taking a ruck/forward with such a high pick, but I'm backing in the club this time to have a plan in mind if it happens.

No knickers in any knots mate, just think sometimes here we can all not dig deep enough, and for me, this is one of those times (re: Taylor), and you can't blame JT for not having enough first round picks to use, that's not his job.

 

All good mate, to be honest I don't follow the juniors closely these days. I saw his highlights package but didn't do much for me but that may be bias also. I think we are all nervous! I just wish we could snag our next Buddy, Roughy, Dusty, Bont, Cripps, J Cameron.... we are due a bonafide star, we may not be back down here this far for a while, I just hope we don't draft a project. As you say, better judges out there than me anyway, I'll wait anxiously!

  On 18/11/2019 at 22:17, SFebes said:

When was the last time a dominant ruckmen helped their team win a flag, you'd probably have to go back to Ottens at the Cats and Keating before that?

I agree with this analysis favouring marking ruck-men over just tap ruckmen.   Both Ottens and Keating were excellent in the aerial duels.  And you forgot another, more recent sandgroper.

Dean cox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_AFL_Grand_Final#Teams

The Age is reporting Adelaide about to trade pick 4 to GWS crows-set-to-trade-pick-no-4-to-gws for 6 and GWS 2020 first.  Pretty good deal for Adelaide as the player they want at 4 will most probably be there at 6.

GWS holding pick 4 puts the pressure on us as they are known to want Jackson and probably need him more than another albeit elite midfielder, in Green. 

If we bid Green at 3 it is uncertain if GWS will match and they could just take Jackson at 4.  If we don't take Jackson at 3 there is little chance he will get past Freo at 7 so we miss out. 

If we don't bid Green GWS will get him cheaply.  

I think we need to pick the player we really want rather than second guess what GWS will do.   If they get Green cheaply so be it. 

  On 19/11/2019 at 04:24, Lucifer's Hero said:

The Age is reporting Adelaide about to trade pick 4 to GWS crows-set-to-trade-pick-no-4-to-gws for 6 and GWS 2020 first.  Pretty good deal for Adelaide as the player they want at 4 will most probably be there at 6.

GWS holding pick 4 puts the pressure on us as they are known to want Jackson and probably need him more than another albeit elite midfielder, in Green. 

If we bid Green at 3 it is uncertain if GWS will match and they could just take Jackson at 4.  If we don't take Jackson at 3 there is little chance he will get past Freo at 7 so we miss out. 

If we don't bid Green GWS will get him cheaply.  

I think we need to pick the player we really want rather than second guess what GWS will do.   If they get Green cheaply so be it. 

Obviously they saw the swans as the threat re Green and not us... and/or they’re happy with green or Jackson. I agree though, we take who we think is best. Only bid for green if we really want him not to play games. 

  On 19/11/2019 at 00:31, Lord Nev said:

 

Josh Wagner - Rookie
Joel Smith -  Rookie
Mitch Hannan - Pick 46
Tim Smith - Rookie
Bailey Fritsch - Pick 31
Harrison Petty - Pick 37
Marty Hore - Pick 56

Jury still out on a fair few that have shown signs (ie - Baker, Sparrow, Bradtke).

2015 we had 2 top 10 picks, but since then our highest pick has been 27 (which was last year).

 

 

We haven't given JT a lot to work with but Fritsch is the only clear winner there. Apart from Oliver his best work has been Harmes, Hunt and Vanders. Plus whatever role he had in making sure they redrafted Jetta. That's when I thought we had a recruiting star on our hands, capable of finding diamonds in the rough.

I still have my doubts of if ANB and Oscar were even JT picks, they seemed so Roos like. Ed Langdon one pick after Oscar McDonald..that would've saved a second rounder.

Pretty much wipes after the first round in 2015 and all of 2016 and not having at least one of the young kids really pop so far from the last 2 drafts is concerning but maybe that means it's time he goes on a hot streak again!

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by DeeSpencer

Yep this tells me GWS are pretty certain we won't bid. Otherwise they'd at least wait until the draft so they have more options.

If the Crows were high on Jackson (as sometimes reported) they might not have done this trade either if they still thought he was in play.

Could be wrong, but it looks like 90% Jackson at pick 3 to me.

  On 19/11/2019 at 04:24, Lucifer's Hero said:

The Age is reporting Adelaide about to trade pick 4 to GWS crows-set-to-trade-pick-no-4-to-gws for 6 and GWS 2020 first.  Pretty good deal for Adelaide as the player they want at 4 will most probably be there at 6.

GWS holding pick 4 puts the pressure on us as they are known to want Jackson and probably need him more than another albeit elite midfielder, in Green. 

If we bid Green at 3 it is uncertain if GWS will match and they could just take Jackson at 4.  If we don't take Jackson at 3 there is little chance he will get past Freo at 7 so we miss out. 

If we don't bid Green GWS will get him cheaply.  

I think we need to pick the player we really want rather than second guess what GWS will do.   If they get Green cheaply so be it. 

our unwillingness to do that deal makes me think we've decieded to take Luke Jackson at 3. and the Giants think because of that theyre going to get Green and Young.

  On 19/11/2019 at 04:33, DeeSpencer said:

We haven't given JT a lot to work with but Fritsch is the only clear winner there.

Sure, not many 'guns', but I'm talking from a ROI point of view within my context of which picks he's had to use.

Looking at games played or quality of player vs pick used, I would argue all of them are winners in that way.

 

  On 19/11/2019 at 04:36, Patches O’houlihan said:

our unwillingness to do that deal makes me think we've decieded to take Luke Jackson at 3. and the Giants think because of that theyre going to get Green and Young.

Young could be the Shaw replacement.

  On 19/11/2019 at 04:24, Lucifer's Hero said:

The Age is reporting Adelaide about to trade pick 4 to GWS crows-set-to-trade-pick-no-4-to-gws for 6 and GWS 2020 first.  Pretty good deal for Adelaide as the player they want at 4 will most probably be there at 6.

GWS holding pick 4 puts the pressure on us as they are known to want Jackson and probably need him more than another albeit elite midfielder, in Green. 

If we bid Green at 3 it is uncertain if GWS will match and they could just take Jackson at 4.  If we don't take Jackson at 3 there is little chance he will get past Freo at 7 so we miss out. 

If we don't bid Green GWS will get him cheaply.  

I think we need to pick the player we really want rather than second guess what GWS will do.   If they get Green cheaply so be it. 

Adelaide think they have done well swapping for 4 for 6 and 15 ( approx next year) .

But the silly Crows has basically given GWS picks 4 & 5. Short sighted. Hope the Dees skittle their plans. The comp needs us to. 

  On 19/11/2019 at 04:39, Lord Nev said:

Sure, not many 'guns', but I'm talking from a ROI point of view within my context of which picks he's had to use.

Looking at games played or quality of player vs pick used, I would argue all of them are winners in that way.

 

Hannan might turn it around if he gets healthy, but Josh Wagner keeps adding to his game totals without ever really showing he's a good AFL player. A team has to pick 22 guys each week, someone has to play! Clearly that's different if a guy gets 100 games well he's probably been useful, but you can carve out 50 or so without being much chop.

  On 19/11/2019 at 04:53, DeeSpencer said:

Hannan might turn it around if he gets healthy, but Josh Wagner keeps adding to his game totals without ever really showing he's a good AFL player. A team has to pick 22 guys each week, someone has to play! Clearly that's different if a guy gets 100 games well he's probably been useful, but you can carve out 50 or so without being much chop.

Sure, and I'm not a big Wagner fan or anything, but the context is that he was a rookie pick, so I see that as a winning pick.