On 11/10/2019 at 04:41, Demonland said:

Note from AFL Trade Radio tweets:

• "We expect May and lever to play the majority of next year.

I'm expecting them to play all year.

  On 11/10/2019 at 05:10, Dees247 said:

Or Serong, but he’s not as much of a specialist, goal kicking forward. If we keep 3, I think we take Serong though. Better player.

He trained at Carlton last year in the pre season and took one of the greatest hangars you have seen 

  On 11/10/2019 at 05:04, Diamond_Jim said:

Interesting that Preuss was mentioned. Wonder what was on offer.

Also no mention of Hannan .... cannot recall who floated some interest in him.

For completion no mention of Stretch or JKH. Hope they both find a home.

Bummers looking for a ruck. Not sure they would have offered much (and not sure our ruck depth could take him leaving).

  On 11/10/2019 at 06:05, Axis of Bob said:

I have completely the opposite view. Our team doesn’t play better because we ‘won’ 2 different trades, we play better because we improved our team overall over the period. The deals are not isolated, they are part of a bigger picture. 

For instance, everyone was filthy that we paid 25 for Melksham early, and the quickly got 29, 50 and Kennedy for Howe and Toumpas. This place was an absolute nightmare during that time because we were always pushovers etc.

Then we used that pick 29 to help us go from pick 6 into pick 3 and 10, before using one of the picks we got back to turn pick 10 into pick 7. And then everyone thought we were geniuses. But we needed the extra second round pick to make those other deals happen, plus time to do the deals, so we took the hit on that trade to do it quickly and cam out as big winners overall.

The point is, the trades don’t exist in a vacuum, so it’s short sighted to look at the in isolation.

 

I reckon we habdle the trade period exceptionally well. We are clear about what we want and then work with the other 17 clubs to achieve it. While not as exciting as the Geelong and Essendon posturing we get things done and are fair to deal with.

  On 11/10/2019 at 05:04, Dees247 said:

What I found interesting is he seemed to be saying no to a small forward in the trade period, but yes they would try in the draft. This makes me think we want to split the pick & draft Weightman.

Yeah I came to same conclusion 

  On 11/10/2019 at 06:25, Demons11 said:

He trained at Carlton last year in the pre season and took one of the greatest hangars you have seen 

What is your opinion of him strictly as a small forward (as he is also a mid) vs Weightman playing forward (not really much of a mid)?

  On 11/10/2019 at 06:05, Axis of Bob said:

I have completely the opposite view. Our team doesn’t play better because we ‘won’ 2 different trades, we play better because we improved our team overall over the period. The deals are not isolated, they are part of a bigger picture. 

For instance, everyone was filthy that we paid 25 for Melksham early, and the quickly got 29, 50 and Kennedy for Howe and Toumpas. This place was an absolute nightmare during that time because we were always pushovers etc.

Then we used that pick 29 to help us go from pick 6 into pick 3 and 10, before using one of the picks we got back to turn pick 10 into pick 7. And then everyone thought we were geniuses. But we needed the extra second round pick to make those other deals happen, plus time to do the deals, so we took the hit on that trade to do it quickly and cam out as big winners overall.

The point is, the trades don’t exist in a vacuum, so it’s short sighted to look at the in isolation.

 

That year was the one time we did actually have important future trades to do, most years we have nothing more to come and seem to do deals early for a bit of good publicity.

The bigger picture = draft picks. Even if it's a late pick or getting shuffled up the order by 2 or 3 picks that can make all the difference.

Last year Adelaide and West Coast got 2nd round picks for moving back only 4 spots at the start of the second round. The Giants picked the slider of the draft in Bobby Hill. Then we picked Tom Sparrow. If we were to pick Sparrow I would've loved an extra 2nd round pick as well! 

If you start with the presumption that we will eventually get the trades done for the players we've targeted - Lever, Melksham, Langdon etc. then the purpose of all the haggling is to give Jason Taylor as strong a hand at the draft as we can. Especially now that teams will live trade up and down the draft there's a great opportunity to get extra value.

I just take the view that the trade period isn’t a competition. You go there with your objectives, find clubs that have the opposite objective, shake hands and get it done. No winning or losing, just those who got it done and those who didn’t.

I think if every list manager took the view that his or her job was to squeeze every tiny drop out of value out of each individual trade and be as big a tightarse at possible, there would be a lot more “get stuffed ya bastards” type rug pulling like we saw with St Kilda and old mate Bellend. Nothing would get done. The whole thing works on mutual goodwill. 

  On 11/10/2019 at 04:59, Sir Why You Little said:

Hope we find 2018 form in 2020

Wow that fills me with enormous confidence 

 

Hope doesn't win big games of footy SW.  How many times have i seen or heard this "she'll be right" mantra from the FD / club.  Danners  another after our 2000 thumping against the Drugsters and look how that turned out.  Haven't been back to the big dance in 19 attempts.

Thumped by approx the same amount 18 years later in a prelim and although severely impacted in off season and opps we appeared to be a bit too happy with our lot (attitude wise) according to Lewis.

I truly hope i am proven wrong and have no doubts we will see a bounce back from a very low base next year but i'm over this sort of thinking.

  On 11/10/2019 at 05:04, Demons11 said:

Serong

If we split the pick i doubt we get Serong D11.  Probably goes at 4 or 5.

  On 11/10/2019 at 07:31, DeeSpencer said:

That year was the one time we did actually have important future trades to do, most years we have nothing more to come and seem to do deals early for a bit of good publicity.

The bigger picture = draft picks. Even if it's a late pick or getting shuffled up the order by 2 or 3 picks that can make all the difference.

Last year Adelaide and West Coast got 2nd round picks for moving back only 4 spots at the start of the second round. The Giants picked the slider of the draft in Bobby Hill. Then we picked Tom Sparrow. If we were to pick Sparrow I would've loved an extra 2nd round pick as well! 

If you start with the presumption that we will eventually get the trades done for the players we've targeted - Lever, Melksham, Langdon etc. then the purpose of all the haggling is to give Jason Taylor as strong a hand at the draft as we can. Especially now that teams will live trade up and down the draft there's a great opportunity to get extra value.

Maybe the Saints, Blues, Swans, Bombers and Dogs are starting with the assumption that they get their trades done - we'll see if it's a good assumption.

The Frost trade facilitated the Langdon trade and as Mahoney said enabled us to still be in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds in 2019 and 2020 - Taylor should be happy with that.

Edited October 11, 20195 yr by Fifty-5

  On 11/10/2019 at 05:05, Wiseblood said:

To be fair, Hogan didn't play at all in the final few games and then in any of our finals.  We showed that we could function quite well without him.

To a point Wise.  I think we were pretty cooked in general after the Hawks match.  I doubt Hogan would have dented a 10 goal thumping much but might have been a better foil up forward and pushing high for general marking and ball control, helping settle things down a bit earlier than half time!

Hulk's better work earlier on in the season certainly helped us secure a final's berth though.  Taking the No.1 defender away from T-mac and the No.2 off Weid was also handy and the fact these two copped the better defenders of Meth coke probably also impacted on the poor result in the wash up.

  On 11/10/2019 at 08:06, Rusty Nails said:

If we split the pick i doubt we get Serong D11.  Probably goes at 4 or 5.

Yeah I agree there is no chance we get him if they split the pick 

  On 11/10/2019 at 07:30, Dees247 said:

What is your opinion of him strictly as a small forward (as he is also a mid) vs Weightman playing forward (not really much of a mid)?

Size wise I think he will play forward initially and then move into the middle.  A better prospect than Weightman.

i actually hope we take Young at 3, I think he will be the best of the bunch.

  On 11/10/2019 at 08:00, Rusty Nails said:

Hope doesn't win big games of footy SW.  How many times have i seen or heard this "she'll be right" mantra from the FD / club.  Danners  another after our 2000 thumping against the Drugsters and look how that turned out.  Haven't been back to the big dance in 19 attempts.

Thumped by approx the same amount 18 years later in a prelim and although severely impacted in off season and opps we appeared to be a bit too happy with our lot (attitude wise) according to Lewis.

I truly hope i am proven wrong and have no doubts we will see a bounce back from a very low base next year but i'm over this sort of thinking.

Yes. I agree, the Clubs attitude seems a little strange to me. I am happy enough we have found Wingman, as that position was an absolute liability in 2019

But the Backline and Forward line look way off the top sides at this point

 

  On 11/10/2019 at 05:43, DeeSpencer said:

Hogan kick 3 or more goals in 9 games in 2018.

7 of those we won comfortably against Suns, Bulldogs, Bulldogs, Crows, Suns, Saints, Lions. The average winning margin in those games was over 40 points and only the Lions game where we had a huge lead, hit a wall then pulled away was remotely close.

The only times  he kicked 3 or more in close games or losses were against the Cats in round 1 where he kicked 3 straight and had 3 marks and against the Saints in that awful loss.

There's not a single game in 2018 that we won that we would've lost if he was missing - apart from if it meant Tom McDonald and one of Smith/Weideman were also missing.

Our biggest issue with key forwards for 2020 is getting Tom McDonald right and making sure we have the depth to cover the 2nd tall forward spot. If Tom McDonald gets back to 2018 form/fitness and we have 22 solid 'do your job' games from Weideman/Petty/other competent key forward then we'll be fine. 

DS i think you are missing a few aspects here in terms of what a player contributes to the team overall from things other than the scoreboard.  Regardless i would have killed for the sort of numbers Hogan produced in 2018 during this season gone.

Second in goal kicking averages (2.35) only behind T-Mac (2.82).  He was also 'involved' in general play quite a bit, much of it up the ground, ranked third in average score involvements (7.55) with T-Mac No.1 again (7.71) & Clarry second (7.59).

He was also holding the ball inside 50 for us for longer periods.  Third on marks inside 50 averages (2.10) behind ANB (4.82) and T-Mac (2.88).  Contested marking also to a degree.... fifth (1.20) behind Gawn (2.27),  T-Mac (1.65), Weid (1.57) and Pedders (1.25).

I have to agree with OD here, there's a helluva lot of "hope" riding on Weid as back up to T-Mac in 2020.  Fingers crossed our trade period isn't quite done and we are still in the hunt for someone like a Gunston, Bruce or, if those two fail, Jenkins as a last gasp stop gap / insurance buy (on the cheap).  Weids may well step up but it's too big a gamble without a 3rd genuine option (assuming we are not drafting in any experienced small/s as Mahoney suggested).

Edited October 11, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

Tomlinson and Langdon? Winger, winger chicken dinner. 

  On 11/10/2019 at 04:57, Dr. Gonzo said:

Garlett too

I guess they're banking on full seasons from Melksham and Hannan but I don't think we have that natural small forward. None of our forwards really have "goal sense" ie the ability to find the goals when snapping out of a pack or from a pocket. That's something we desperately lack.

i can't believe they think our small forwards are up to scratch.  who the hell are our gun small forwards??? compared to most finals sides this year we are crap.

  On 11/10/2019 at 05:27, old dee said:

You have forgotten all the games that he made a major contrabition us wining with multiple goals during the season.

Without him in 2018 there would have been no finals appearance. 

We have not replace the best KPF we had, kicking a winning score was a major problem in 2019 and will again be a problem in 2020.

Hogan was good in 2018, but the way we entered 50 this year even J Cameron would struggle, we had a weak draw in 2018 grew in confidence towards the end, then with a harder draw and injuries the wheels fell off this year, I think 2020 will be the real Melbourne I'm tipping us to be competitive every week and finish 6 -8th, 

  On 11/10/2019 at 08:58, demonzz said:

i can't believe they think our small forwards are up to scratch.  who the hell are our gun small forwards??? compared to most finals sides this year we are crap.

This tends to fit with the Goody mantra/method/belief of "weight of numbers at/around the contest" (yes even inside 50) and weight of numbers coming inside 50 will win out more often than not.  I guess he is gambling that we will get enough numbers at the drop often enough in 2020 with a massive pre-season in and a mostly fit top 25 to 28 available.

If this works out we see a solid bounce back in 2020.  If it doesn't then still a bounce/improvement but nothing to write home about.

Might take a second round of 'trading in the right mix' and filling some gaps, plus maturing of the younger brigade in 2020, before we see anything that resembles anything like a 2018.  2021 might be the year we truly blossom.

Edited October 11, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

  On 11/10/2019 at 09:11, Rusty Nails said:

This tends to fit with the Goody mantra/method/belief of "weight of numbers at/around the contest" (yes even inside 50) and weight of numbers coming inside 50 will win out more often than not.  I guess he is gambling that we will get enough numbers at the drop often enough in 2020 with a massive pre-season in and a mostly fit top 25 to 28 available.

If this works out we see a solid bounce back in 2020.  If it doesn't then still a bounce/improvement but nothing to write home about.

Might take a second round of trading in the right mix and filling the gaps plus maturing in 2020 before we see anything that resembles anything like a 2018.  2021 might be the year we truly blossom.

O no.... please tell me we are getting a decent gameplan and not the failed crash and bang of the last few years

  On 11/10/2019 at 09:11, Rusty Nails said:

This tends to fit with the Goody mantra/method/belief of "weight of numbers at/around the contest" (yes even inside 50) and weight of numbers coming inside 50 will win out more often than not.  I guess he is gambling that we will get enough numbers at the drop often enough in 2020 with a massive pre-season in and a mostly fit top 25 to 28 available.

If this works out we see a solid bounce back in 2020.  If it doesn't then still a bounce/improvement but nothing to write home about.

Might take a second round of 'trading in the right mix' and filling some gaps, plus maturing of the younger brigade in 2020, before we see anything that resembles anything like a 2018.  2021 might be the year we truly blossom.

yeah, but this weight of numbers thing can often end up with just scrambled mayhem resulting in a rushed behind or a ball up 15m out.

i think you need at least one small gun forward that can turn nothing into something.  like jeffy in his prime.

  On 11/10/2019 at 09:12, Diamond_Jim said:

O no.... please tell me we are getting a decent gameplan and not the failed crash and bang of the last few years

I'm not saying he totally ignores the outside at midfield (bounce / 666) & stoppage side DJ.  A more balanced mix inside / outside and improvement in structures and set ups around the stoppages will no doubt help.

Reckon he would have learned that he can't ignore this aspect after such poor results at the G and most teams finding us out in this regard this season.

The players also need to play their part in the fitness and learnings to ensure they are setting up and structuring up around the contest more quickly, more effectively and more often than this season.

An improvement has to come.  I just can't see another year like this for some time provided we don't relax and get happy.

As to how big an improvement who's to say.  Get the tea cup out maybe! 

Edited October 11, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

Looking forward to the gameplan discussion on the main board over the quiet of the summer months.

  On 11/10/2019 at 09:32, demonzz said:

yeah, but this weight of numbers thing can often end up with just scrambled mayhem resulting in a rushed behind or a ball up 15m out.

i think you need at least one small gun forward that can turn nothing into something.  like jeffy in his prime.

I agree demonzz.  I think Goody & the FD did also but didn't get over the line with Elliot.

If wishes were horses i still would've liked to see a back up trade play for someone though.  Maybe a Butler.  Just someone with experience coming out of a solid club (culture/system).  Puopolo?  Maybe even a Gunston for the around the goal mobility and smarts.  The Frosty trade should have included something along these lines even if it meant giving another lower pick and/or a player in the vein of what they are looking for (ruckman...was Pruess an option?).

Part of the solution in this also lies in forward craft and players learning their role / craft effectively to drag opponents away from hot zones and leading lanes of KFs etc.  Making a crowded forward line that we are so used to seeing....less crowded, thereby opening up opportunities for speedsters to crumb like Hannan & Hunt as well as other opportunist crumbers (Melk, Lockhart, Chandler?).

Edited October 11, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails