Does the Tigers win give us hope?

[Robbie57 2,041]

If you look back it was not so long ago they were Ninthmond. The coach was under constant scrutiny, "can he coach?" was the media and supporter's refrain. As noted elsewhere it was only a few years ago that they cleaned out all assistant coaches and gave him one more chance. A solid list with a few stars but not stellar. Players like Grimes have improved with sheer hard work. Ninth at the bye they didn't drop their heads. 

I look at where they were and think we certainly can emulate that outcome. Houli in a post match interview stated how much the players love Hardwick and how he believes in them. Before last year I got that sense from our players. Last night their recruiting of two high profile players Lynch and Prestia really paid off. Perhaps we need to be bold again in that space. 

At this time of year we tend to focus on our woes and holes but are we that different to the old Ninthmond?  I have some real confidence we can do it if we hang in there. I look at what the Tigers have done and see no reason we can't do the same. 

 

 

[John Crow Batty 8,888]

Problem is no one at MFC understands this...

Edited September 21, 2019 by america de cali

[Demonsone 2,056]

Tigers got the right people in e.g. Balme as football manager

• There draft picks before the success are better A+ e.g. Cotchin, Revolt, Rance, Martin
• Their drafting/Free agency Lynch Prestia
• Stronger leadership/culture 

MFC have cleaned out their assistance inc new Fitness coach, so time will tell.

• How many A graders do we have
• Continuously poor drafting, we missed out on Josh Kelly for Tyson & Salem( salem is good nut no Kelly, Tyson can't get a game at Nth) Wines for Toumpas who got delisted. I know all clubs get this but FFS we always do!
• Drafted 2 key Backs Lever with another knee & May who come in unfit, we are paying big $$ for key backs how many other clubs have done that
• We lose a gun Hogan & expected Macca & Weids to fillthe void?????
• Leadership/culture  questionable as can't be seen e.g. Selwood/Danger always shine, Cotchin very strong, Jones/viney??
• Goodwin struggled by his own admission in dealing with the disastrous 2019, questionable game plan, getting smashed on the outside.
• Who will they draft now for outside run/speed & another fwd
• Will the mess up pick 2? history suggest so

Edited September 21, 2019 by Demonsone

[Bring-Back-Powell 15,429]

No.

[Diamond_Jim 12,736]

1 hour ago, Robbie57 said:

If you look back it was not so long ago they were Ninthmond

a lot higher than Seventeenthmond

[Laughing Goat 308]

1 hour ago, Demonsone said:

Tigers got the right people in e.g. Balme as football manager

• There draft picks before the success are better A+ e.g. Cotchin, Revolt, Rance, Martin
• Their drafting/Free agency Lynch Prestia
• Stronger leadership/culture 

MFC have cleaned out their assistance inc new Fitness coach, so time will tell.

• How many A graders do we have
• Continuously poor drafting, we missed out on Josh Kelly for Tyson & Salem( salem is good nut no Kelly, Tyson can't get a game at Nth) Wines for Toumpas who got delisted. I know all clubs get this but FFS we always do!
• Drafted 2 key Backs Lever with another knee & May who come in unfit, we are paying big $$ for key backs how many other clubs have done that
• We lose a gun Hogan & expected Macca & Weids to fillthe void?????
• Leadership/culture  questionable as can't be seen e.g. Selwood/Danger always shine, Cotchin very strong, Jones/viney??
• Goodwin struggled by his own admission in dealing with the disastrous 2019, questionable game plan, getting smashed on the outside.
• Who will they draft now for outside run/speed & another fwd
• Will the mess up pick 2? history suggest so

spot on....

[Sir Why You Little 37,391]

1 hour ago, Demonsone said:

Tigers got the right people in e.g. Balme as football manager

• There draft picks before the success are better A+ e.g. Cotchin, Revolt, Rance, Martin
• Their drafting/Free agency Lynch Prestia
• Stronger leadership/culture 

MFC have cleaned out their assistance inc new Fitness coach, so time will tell.

• How many A graders do we have
• Continuously poor drafting, we missed out on Josh Kelly for Tyson & Salem( salem is good nut no Kelly, Tyson can't get a game at Nth) Wines for Toumpas who got delisted. I know all clubs get this but FFS we always do!
• Drafted 2 key Backs Lever with another knee & May who come in unfit, we are paying big $$ for key backs how many other clubs have done that
• We lose a gun Hogan & expected Macca & Weids to fillthe void?????
• Leadership/culture  questionable as can't be seen e.g. Selwood/Danger always shine, Cotchin very strong, Jones/viney??
• Goodwin struggled by his own admission in dealing with the disastrous 2019, questionable game plan, getting smashed on the outside.
• Who will they draft now for outside run/speed & another fwd
• Will the mess up pick 2? history suggest so

That’s a good start...

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,333]

Richmond were able to top up with Lynch. A match winner.

No way a player of that quality/experience (but not old) would come to MFC.

So, it's a no from me.

[Sir Why You Little 37,391]

5 minutes ago, bingers said:

Richmond were able to top up with Lynch. A match winner.

No way a player of that quality/experience (but not old) would come to MFC.

So, it's a no from me.

The players won’t come yet. A lot of work still to be done

[faultydet 7,623]

Huh?

Our players would not have even watched the game. They are probably up to their eyeballs in speed in Bali, rooting everything not nailed down before the Indonesian fun ban comes in.

[Sir Why You Little 37,391]

16 minutes ago, faultydet said:

Huh?

Our players would not have even watched the game. They are probably up to their eyeballs in speed in Bali, rooting everything not nailed down before the Indonesian fun ban comes in.

But everything will be cool. 

[Demonsone 2,056]

1 hour ago, bingers said:

Richmond were able to top up with Lynch. A match winner.

No way a player of that quality/experience (but not old) would come to MFC.

So, it's a no from me.

Goes Deeper than top ups.....culture, development...

How did May turn up underdone? not sure what the process is but are new players not introduced into their leadership group/Fitness condition coaches to lay out what the expectations are? Or do they just turn up to pre season? 

[Demon Disciple 12,517]

When we have the likes of Rance (covered for him amazingly well this year), Grimes, Cotchin (a true captain), Martin, Edwards and Lynch in our team, then maybe.

[praha 11,266]

All starts at the top.

Peggie O'Neal and Brendan Gale are both smart, ruthless and agile leaders. 

Gale built a plan that started with being openly critical of the club's cultural imperfections. My concern with the current regime is that PJ and Co. were open about where the club was, but the current regime is driven by an expectation. 

Pert has been around for 2 seconds but Barlett and Co. won't have long unless things turn around.

Tigers also had a bonafide star in Martin, brought in Prestia and Caddy, and drafted like 10 small forwards between 2016 and 2017. 

We may have potential stars with the likes of Oliver and Petracca but not even Richmond of 2016 were as bad as we were this year.

Reasonable to expect a finals berth next year but we'd need more than Tomlinson and Elliot to turn things around. 

[Demonsone 2,056]

Successful clubs that win flags maintain period of success which sees them play in number of prelims...

Tigers 3 prelims in a row, Pies 2 prelims in a row & both sides possible will have played in the last 2 out of 3 GF.

MFC has a poor track record of this...

87-91= 2 prelims, 1 GF

94 prelim then no finals in 95

98-2006 = 2 prelims, 1 GF

2018 Prelim, 2019 disaster

[praha 11,266]

4 minutes ago, Demonsone said:

Successful clubs that win flags maintain period of success which sees them play in number of prelims...

Tigers 3 prelims in a row, Pies 2 prelims in a row & both sides possible will have played in the last 2 out of 3 GF.

MFC has a poor track record of this...

87-91= 2 prelims, 1 GF

94 prelim then no finals in 95

98-2006 = 2 prelims, 1 GF

2018 Prelim, 2019 disaster

Sustained success. Without it you feed a losing culture.

[Demon Disciple 12,517]

6 minutes ago, praha said:

Sustained success. Without it you feed a losing culture.

It seems that our boys for a number of years have been satisfied that putting in one decent season is good enough.

[Demonsone 2,056]

Maybe Goodwin should make the players watch Richmond how they won their prelim, since he didn’t review the one they lost vs WC in 2018!

[Sir Why You Little 37,391]

2 minutes ago, Demonsone said:

Maybe Goodwin should make the players watch Richmond how they won their prelim, since he didn’t review the one they lost vs WC in 2018!

Today’s game is another one. The pressure goes up at least 20%

Tackles are serious and usually stick. No time to think

[chookrat 4,268]

3 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

a lot higher than Seventeenthmond

I believe that should be seventheenthbourne

[Little Goffy 14,851]

Just have to take a moment to laugh at the people implying that Richmond's recovery from being ninthmond doesn't compare to us because of all our draft and recruiting misses.

For I believe a six year run Richmond's recruiting was so poor that only the same  fifteen or so players appeared in their top ten B&F.

Let's me see if I can find my old notes - - - there we go, six years, 2011 to 2015 inclusive.

Five players appeared in all six, and another two appeared in five of the six, missing the full set only because of injury.

It was a club held together by a core that mature together and were good enough to keep the team at least competitive most of the time.  But success came at a rush with just two, maybe three years of good recruiting that came just in time.  Dustin Martin is the youngest of that group at 28.

So, realistically, the Richmond experience might be comparable to ours if we keep a stable top-10 in place for another four years of averageness and then put on a surge. 

I don't feel like we are going to follow the same pattern.  Personally I'm looking for a kind of Geelong scenario, with our 2019 being their 2003.  That would be acceptable!

[DeeSpencer 26,612]

The Tigers weren't particularly good for most of 2017, they won their first 4 with a blessed draw, beat us when we lost 2 players early, then they lost 4 in a row followed by gradually building some momentum as a decent side before exploding in finals - in a year without a lot of good sides. They've built on that in 18 and 19 where they are much better now than they were in 2017.

So even in a year when they had a huge bounce back and won the flag they didn't become the dominant team they are now overnight.

The things to take away from them are:

1. Culture and leadership:
The calm from Balme as well as Gale has filtered through their club. All with less talk, more smart decisions, get in and fix what's needed. For the Tigers it was a change in assistant coaches, a few smart trades and then backing in their recruiting and development staff.

2. Coaching:
Hardwick fed off that calm environment and got back to basics. Run, tackle, uses attacking handball. Simple stuff.  The game plan was based on what Hardwick believes in and what the Tigers had been doing for years which is investing in speed. We've got a bunch of solid body mids and we beat up the Hawks and Cats last year in the finals. There's no reason why we can't still believe in that as the basis of our game plan obviously with some improvements. 

3. Belief:
They used mindfulness to get their brains in gear but after that it's the way everything feeds back - the coaching, the admin, the care for each other then comes together.

Step 1: No more robotic Simon Goodwin. He's one of the younger, fitter and more enthusiastic coaches. Come day 1 of preseason he needs to set the tone. If he trains this playing group with the right mix of high intensity, smarts and energy they'll win plenty of games.

[Adam The God 30,657]

54 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

The Tigers weren't particularly good for most of 2017, they won their first 4 with a blessed draw, beat us when we lost 2 players early, then they lost 4 in a row followed by gradually building some momentum as a decent side before exploding in finals - in a year without a lot of good sides. They've built on that in 18 and 19 where they are much better now than they were in 2017.

So even in a year when they had a huge bounce back and won the flag they didn't become the dominant team they are now overnight.

The things to take away from them are:

1. Culture and leadership:
The calm from Balme as well as Gale has filtered through their club. All with less talk, more smart decisions, get in and fix what's needed. For the Tigers it was a change in assistant coaches, a few smart trades and then backing in their recruiting and development staff.

2. Coaching:
Hardwick fed off that calm environment and got back to basics. Run, tackle, uses attacking handball. Simple stuff.  The game plan was based on what Hardwick believes in and what the Tigers had been doing for years which is investing in speed. We've got a bunch of solid body mids and we beat up the Hawks and Cats last year in the finals. There's no reason why we can't still believe in that as the basis of our game plan obviously with some improvements. 

3. Belief:
They used mindfulness to get their brains in gear but after that it's the way everything feeds back - the coaching, the admin, the care for each other then comes together.

Step 1: No more robotic Simon Goodwin. He's one of the younger, fitter and more enthusiastic coaches. Come day 1 of preseason he needs to set the tone. If he trains this playing group with the right mix of high intensity, smarts and energy they'll win plenty of games.

Good post, mate.

I'm keen to read your thinking on how you see our game plan progressing from here. 

We've tried to build from the contest out before and we often get killed on the outside. Interestingly, finals are never played with that same outside space and contested ball winning usually wins finals.

However, what are the improvements you would add to the game style to enable it to combat the quicker teams, but also what are the layers of improvement that will enable us to build on a game style that was good enough to get us to a PF?

[DeeSpencer 26,612]

19 hours ago, A F said:

Good post, mate.

I'm keen to read your thinking on how you see our game plan progressing from here. 

We've tried to build from the contest out before and we often get killed on the outside. Interestingly, finals are never played with that same outside space and contested ball winning usually wins finals.

However, what are the improvements you would add to the game style to enable it to combat the quicker teams, but also what are the layers of improvement that will enable us to build on a game style that was good enough to get us to a PF?

Defensively I think we need some speed in the front half - and coordinated, well coached, well drilled pressure - and then a fit midfield group which includes clearly an upgrade on the wings in terms of fitness and smart positioning and then a proper two way midfield effort. I look at the way the Giants are defending this finals campaign and think that's the blueprint for what we can do which. And the way we've defended last year even without the ideal defensive personnel has shown we were on the right path there. Lever in the Haynes role, May in the Phil Davis (or Lachie Keeffe) role and off we go.

In terms of the plan with the ball I think we need to train a style that allows us to do 3 things.

Plan B: Slow down the line plays that use Gawn and hopefully a pair of competent tall forwards.
Plan C: A fitter midfield group particularly on the wings that works hard for switches and uncontested steady build up play

Plan A: Maximise what I see as the strength of our team for ball movement which is that we've got Oliver, Harmes, Gus as mids, Petracca mid/fwd, Melksham and Fritsch forward. We've got a lot of 188cm guys who can either take a grab or win the ball if it spills. We don't need to out sprint teams if we can get the ball moving our way and spread through the corridor and to the fat side at half forward we've got a lot of guys who can get the ball on the lead. The Eagles are excellent at taking riskier kicks to Yeo in the middle or Ryan, Waterman, a 3rd tall etc at half forward. Then it's one on ones deep which is why the Eagles talls are so potent.

Pretty much I just want to see us add width and variety to the style we played in 2018. The play on and quick kicking game can be extremely damaging it just needs to be balanced with some safer play and a little more creative and less running in to a brick wall.

Then we also need a big improvement in the way we link with handballs from contested situations. The Tigers are the forward handball masters and that's where I'm not sure we could ever match them - no one can when the game opens up - but we have to at least become competent at stoppages and from long kicks down the line in getting runners free in to space. Again, fitter runners and more speed but apart from that just train the right set ups.

[Demonsone 2,056]

A continued glaring stat in all finals was the contested footy, which is what goody has been barking all along & difference is that the winning teams playing finals all very big but the ability to hit targets when the ball is won.