Simon Goodwin on SEN (26/6/19)

[Diamond_Jim 12,628]

2 minutes ago, Demonland said:

These stats on the face of it appear damning but it's hard to compare the two eras. There were some massive scorelines in the late 80s to 00s. Teams would regularly kick well over 120 points a game. I was watching a game from 93 yesterday where we scored 160 points. We scored 156 points in the 00 prelim. Players kicking large bags and in turn teams kicking massive scores just is not the norm today.

was there not  a year when 3 or 4 players kicked over 100 goals

[DeeSpencer 26,081]

Context is key:

1. The forward line has been a joke all season. On the weekend against a pretty decent Freo side they kicked 13 goals, scored 85 and won the game. The forward line function was certainly improved.

2. The forward line featured 3 talls who haven't had a heap of footy together to learn how to function as a unit. I won't look up the exact number but McDonald, Smith and Weideman can't have played more than 10 games together, most likely under 5.

Between the 3 tall forwards they had:
7 goals 5 behinds
44 disposals
15 marks

Goodwin was explaining very clearly that the forwards worked well for each other and McDonald and Smith got on the end of the goals whilst Weideman played a very good game for 6 disposals. 

I'm sure the aim will be for Weideman to hold a few more marks and play an even better game for 10, 15 or even 20 disposals, but the most important thing for the side right now is to have guys working for each other and doing the team things. 

Having watched the replay Sam dropped a mark going back with the flight early that he did all the hard work for and he would've loved to hold one or two more where he got hands on inside 50 but Hamling - one of the best closing speed full backs in the game - got a fist on.

But I severely doubt the coach was commenting as a way to pump Weids up. He was being honest and correct in saying it was a really good 6 disposal game as part of a discussion on what the players did well to turn around a bad forward set up.
 

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

7 minutes ago, Demonland said:

These stats on the face of it appear damning but it's hard to compare the two eras. There were some massive scorelines in the late 80s to 00s. Teams would regularly kick well over 120 points a game. I was watching a game from 93 yesterday where we scored 160 points. We scored 156 points in the 00 prelim. Players kicking large bags and in turn teams kicking massive scores just is not the norm today.

That's true. The different styles of footy is a mitigating factor.

But it only mitigates so far. Weid is not even in the top 100 goalkickers in the competition at present.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_goal_kickers

[ManDee 7,222]

59 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

You’re clutching a straws ManDee.

Ok you tell me in the year that Schwartz kicked 60 goals (1994) he played 25 games, how old was he when he kicked his 60th goal? Remembering he was born July 24th 1972.  

Now we are talking a once in a generation player in Schwartz before knee problems. I do not believe for a minute that Weideman is anywhere near the player that Schwartz was but at the same number of games 28 Weideman 0.86 goals per game, Schwartz first 28 games .96 goal per game in an era when more goals were scored generally. It is not a huge difference.

You were the one making the point about how good your list of past forwards were compared to Weideman, I am suggesting that we give the kid some time, he could well turn out to be a very good player for us and he is not far behind the stars that you listed. Not clutching straws but living in hope.

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

39 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Look mate, I don't have any personal problems with you, and I even agree with you on the odd occasion, but this tendency to repeat things over and over again is really wrecking your impact and cred here in my view. Take it on board or don't, entirely up to you, I'm just some guy on the internet so doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things, but leaving a little space for others to contribute will make this site more enjoyable for everyone, maybe even you.

Have a good one.

 

If another poster asks me a question, rebuts something I've said without a solid argument, twists what I've written etc, I will generally reply to that person. I am trying to ignore certain posters who seek to put me down as though it's some kind of sport, otherwise it's fair bump play on as far as I'm concerned.

I've got no interest in someone's personal take on my so-called 'cred' or 'impact', or likes and dislikes next to my posts. This means very little to me, although it's nice to see a good share of Demonlanders who don't always follow the herd. You can in turn take that on board or don't, likewise it's entirely up to you.

The ignore function is there if it all gets too much for you.

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

11 minutes ago, ManDee said:

I do not believe for a minute that Weideman is anywhere near the player that Schwartz was 

Excellent. Now we're getting somewhere MD.

[Foopy on the telly 529]

14 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Excellent. Now we're getting somewhere MD.

Geez, who’s clutching at straws now?

[Foopy on the telly 529]

Bottom line is, most if not all of our forwards have been poor this season, so it’s clearly more a cohesion and structural issue alongside personal form. The Weid will improve once the team improves, hopefully ASAP.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,966]

Far out, just don’t take the bait. 

[Slartibartfast 17,625]

23 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Excellent. Now we're getting somewhere MD.

I've avoided joining this debate but in response to Goodwin saying  “Sam Weideman’s game shouldn’t be underestimated. It’s probably one of the better six possession games I’ve seen from a key forward,”.

Your response was:

??? Lolz.

Nice one Goody. Realise you’ve got to go into bat for your boy but that’s pushing the barrow a bit far, innit! 

Now Goody is saying it's probably one of the better 6 possession games he's seen.  To justify your response you'd have to identify some better 6 possession games otherwise your response is just plain dumb.  So can you point me to some better 6 possession games?

 

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

7 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I've avoided joining this debate but in response to Goodwin saying  “Sam Weideman’s game shouldn’t be underestimated. It’s probably one of the better six possession games I’ve seen from a key forward,”.

Your response was:

??? Lolz.

Nice one Goody. Realise you’ve got to go into bat for your boy but that’s pushing the barrow a bit far, innit! 

Now Goody is saying it's probably one of the better 6 possession games he's seen.  To justify your response you'd have to identify some better 6 possession games otherwise your response is just plain dumb.  So can you point me to some better 6 possession games?

 

Sorry I don’t mean to dig but the more I hear the three words “6 possession game” followed by any kind of passionate defence of it the more I chuckle. It’s pretty funny.

That said I do recall Peter Daicos having a pretty good 6 or so touch game way back when.    Kicked 6 from six kicks at Vic Park. Or maybe that was just to half time I can’t recall it was that long ago.

[ManDee 7,222]

So you mis quote me with..

  53 minutes ago, ManDee said:

I do not believe for a minute that Weideman is anywhere near the player that Schwartz was 

42 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Excellent. Now we're getting somewhere MD.

Please use the whole sentence.

What I said was ....."I do not believe for a minute that Weideman is anywhere near the player that Schwartz was but at the same number of games 28 Weideman 0.86 goals per game, Schwartz first 28 games .96 goal per game in an era when more goals were scored generally. It is not a huge difference."....

Now who was that complaining about partial quotes?

[bing181 9,328]

13 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Sorry I don’t mean to dig but the more I hear the three words “6 possession game” followed by any kind of passionate defence of it the more I chuckle.

That's because your understanding of the game is so superficial and one-dimensional.

(Though there was no "passionate defence", just a statement, though this is typical of your straw man arguments.)

[binman 43,762]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

These stats on the face of it appear damning but it's hard to compare the two eras. There were some massive scorelines in the late 80s to 00s. Teams would regularly kick well over 120 points a game. I was watching a game from 93 yesterday where we scored 160 points. We scored 156 points in the 00 prelim. Players kicking large bags and in turn teams kicking massive scores just is not the norm today.

And a critical difference is key forwards now cover much more territory, so have to be much fitter. And unlike say the ox or jackovic have to contend with zones, third man in and 7-8 man defences so have much less opportunity for pure one on one marking contests that the great forwards historically thrived on.

[ManDee 7,222]

8 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Ox was deployed at both ends of the ground at the start of his career. In just his second season at just 20yo (1992) he came third in the Bluey. It was not until 1994 that Balme deployed him exclusively as a stay at home forward 50 KPP. He was compared in ability to Wayne Carey at the time. 

I don’t know how old you are but not a good idea to be comparing Weid and that guy. There’s no comparison. 

I think it is a very good idea to be comparing players, we can compare similarities and dissimilarities. One can compare apples and oranges. I do not remember Schwartz playing in defence, I remember Neitz playing in defence. Schwartz  did kick more that a goal a game in his first 2 seasons so very surprised that he spent much time in defence. Wikipedia says " He played centre half-forward or full-forward " and I can find no record of him playing in defence.

[Matsuo Basho 1,053]

2 minutes ago, ManDee said:

I think it is a very good idea to be comparing players, we can compare similarities and dissimilarities. One can compare apples and oranges. I do not remember Schwartz playing in defence, I remember Neitz playing in defence. Schwartz  did kick more that a goal a game in his first 2 seasons so very surprised that he spent much time in defence. Wikipedia says " He played centre half-forward or full-forward " and I can find no record of him playing in defence.

Ox came third in Bluey in 1992 at 20yo playing as a swingman at both ends. It was only after Neitz hit the scene in 1993/94 that he was moved forward permanently. 

[binman 43,762]

This a community announcement:

For the love of all things good and just can people please stop quoting MB.

If you feel you must quote him please delete  his text or simply refer to the relevant post number.

Continuing quoting of said poster renders the ignore function obsolete and studies have shown is bad for your health and cognitive function.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

1 hour ago, nacnud said:

Bottom line is, most if not all of our forwards have been poor this season, so it’s clearly more a cohesion and structural issue alongside personal form. The Weid will improve once the team improves, hopefully ASAP.

The forward structure has made it impossible to tell if they've been playing well or not. Tmac has been poor, Petracca has had the yips but other than that it's hard to say they've been that bad considering the structure and the nature of the forward 50 entries.

On the weekend we actually tried to switch play a couple of times wheb we had the ball on the forward flank which opened up space for our forwards and led to I50 marks. Usually we just bang it back down the line making it easy to defend.

 

[Salems Lot 2,634]

Well done everyone, this has become areally irritating thread....sigh....Demonland sucks sometimes

[FireInTheBennelly 4,099]

1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Far out, just don’t take the bait. 

I believe considering the vast amount of it, it's more like burley at this stage ET. It's like someone had a massive spew over the side of the boat.

[old55 23,687]

Weed not as good as Schwarz at the same age. Schwarz who at the time was compared favourably with Carey.  We are in the presence of football genius.

[Grapeviney 9,800]

1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

I don’t know how old you are but not a good idea to be comparing Weid and that guy. There’s no comparison. 

You were the first one to make the comparison! You compared him to a bunch of players in the AFL Hall of Fame and MFC Team of the Century - 'truly magical forwards' in your own words. You're chasing your own tail like a little puppy and you don't even know it. 

5 hours ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Guys ... Schwarz, Lyon, Neitz, Jakovich, Robbo, The Wiz, Jurrah!

It’s been so long between drinks ya’all have forgotten what it was like to have some truly magical forwards in an MFC 22. 

We cant be accepting this.

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Grapeviney

[binman 43,762]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The forward structure has made it impossible to tell if they've been playing well or not. Tmac has been poor, Petracca has had the yips but other than that it's hard to say they've been that bad considering the structure and the nature of the forward 50 entries.

On the weekend we actually tried to switch play a couple of times wheb we had the ball on the forward flank which opened up space for our forwards and led to I50 marks. Usually we just bang it back down the line making it easy to defend.

 

Agree.

One of the commentators noted some thing about how we enter forward 50 compared to other teams that I hadn't given much thought to.

 I know we like to go quickly into the hotspot 30 out, often to a contest and that we struggle to hit up targets.

But the comment was most teams kick it around the arc until an option opens up as opposed to our style of going directly in. Which is right. Going around the arc allows teams to flood back a but also means you risk a rushed kick that does not hit a target. 

[Watts the matter 1,235]

1 hour ago, binman said:

And a critical difference is key forwards now cover much more territory, so have to be much fitter. And unlike say the ox or jackovic have to contend with zones, third man in and 7-8 man defences so have much less opportunity for pure one on one marking contests that the great forwards historically thrived on.

So then compare him to his draft class of talls then. Curnow, McKay, Hipwood and Himmelberg were all taken after him and all have shown much better development in their 4th season of AFL. Schache was taken earlier and was traded as quickly as a pick 2 has ever been for very little. 

[Pates 9,660]

I think the point that Goodwin (and Roosy on the coverage) was making was that ok stats wise he was very low, but his workrate to get to the contests, bring it to ground, harass the ball carrier once it hit the ground, and create opportunities made his game better than what it looked on the stats sheet.

I don't think Simon was saying he played a great game, only pointing out that stats aren't everything. He impacted, therefor he contributed positively in the teams performance.