3 hours ago, nosoupforme said:

Hore or Frost ?   IMO both have had a good season so far and can  hold their heads up high. There is   room for the two.  Marty can play deep and  Hback  and has the smarts  can hold his own on smalls and talls. Frosty is an underrated player with speed and  his skills are good at times. However sometimes he over uses the ball.

With many of our better players coming back from injury soon enough  there is room for Marty and Frosty. They have worked hard for their spots.

Frosty seems to get better each game,  thru continuity.

I reckon Frost is ahead of OMc for most games now,  and once May comes in,  I anticipate OMc goes out.

 

OMc might replace Frost for teams with bigger key talls.?

Frost is such a polarising player. He has moments where I sit back in amazement with his chasing, tackling and courage in the air only to see him completely shank something so simple later on.

I think Hore is just a solid role player and chipping away nicely.

I saw this thread whilst playing golf with a fello dees supporter yesterday who summed it up asking would you rather play an even round with 18 pars (Hore) or an even round with 9 birdies and 9 bogeys (Frost)

I’d still lean towards Frost as we need all the speed we can get but christ he stresses me out with the pill in his hands 

1 hour ago, Deeko2 said:

...would you rather play an even round with 18 pars (Hore) or an even round with 9 birdies and 9 bogeys (Frost)

 

Sums up both players perfectly

21 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

I'll preface this by saying i would not be looking to release either right now but given the OP's question...

Hore by a fair way at this point.

This is not a blight on Frosty either who is having a reasonably good year so far, albeit still the occasional brain fade.  Frosty with 78 games no longer a rookie.  To be playing at the level Hore is already playing at, as a rookie with only 7 matches behind him, is potential / budding champion material and puts Hore a notch or two above Frosty for mine.

FWIW this also shows out statistically.  In the weighted comparative averages i keep, Hore is presently ranked 5th overall and Frosty 17th.  Defenders might make the top 5 once every three to four weeks or a well rounded veteran might make the top 5 or 10 over an entire season.  But for a rookie defender to be sitting that high is astonishing.

Frosty's weighted score of 2.172 so far this season is also 5% higher than his 2018 average of 2.078 so not too shabby.  Hore currently sitting on 2.982  To put that in some perspective the highest ranked defender for the entire 2018 season was Lewis at 3.626 who is presently sitting on 2.225

Prey Rusty can you tell us all what Oscar's 2018 and 2019 rankings are?

Also our Defensive Coach how's he been going the last 2 years!!!

.

Edited May 26, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

7 hours ago, Deeko2 said:

Frost is such a polarising player. He has moments where I sit back in amazement with his chasing, tackling and courage in the air only to see him completely shank something so simple later on.

I think Hore is just a solid role player and chipping away nicely.

I saw this thread whilst playing golf with a fello dees supporter yesterday who summed it up asking would you rather play an even round with 18 pars (Hore) or an even round with 9 birdies and 9 bogeys (Frost)

I’d still lean towards Frost as we need all the speed we can get but christ he stresses me out with the pill in his hands 

 

It comes back to that perceived Effort thing... Frosty inspires,  much more often than deflates.  imv.

 

It seems OMc has a habit of making nervous nellies, mental wrecks  watching him play.

Its back to the VFL in my book, within a few of weeks.

7 hours ago, Deeko2 said:

Frost is such a polarising player. He has moments where I sit back in amazement with his chasing, tackling and courage in the air only to see him completely shank something so simple later on.

I think Hore is just a solid role player and chipping away nicely.

I saw this thread whilst playing golf with a fello dees supporter yesterday who summed it up asking would you rather play an even round with 18 pars (Hore) or an even round with 9 birdies and 9 bogeys (Frost)

 

I’d still lean towards Frost as we need all the speed we can get but christ he stresses me out with the pill in his hands 

And he stresses out the opposition,  our team,  and all supporters who don't know what he will bring...  but He brings excitement....    and he livens up the side, lifting team intensity.  Instead of putting them into a slumber.  with a tranquilising effect.

.

8 hours ago, 58er said:

Prey Rusty can you tell us all what Oscar's 2018 and 2019 rankings are?

Also our Defensive Coach how's he been going the last 2 years!!!

Out of 34 players who played two or more matches in 2018, Oscar finished the season ranked 27th statistically 58er.

He wasn't the lowest ranked defender though.  Frosty finished 30th and Hunt the lowest (and lowest ranked of all players) at 34th.  Keep in mind Oscar was often taking the Opp's best forward though.

Up to and including round 9 this season (from 32 players who have played two or more matches)...

Oscar is ranked 20th.  Up 7 places on last year, although many are well off their best or haven't been out there as we know.   The only defender ranked lower after last week was Hibb, sitting at 26th.  Looking at Hibb's last 3 rounds though (including West Coast), he improved out of sight and was ranked 10th overall in that three week block.  Oscar's form also shot through the roof, finishing just behind Hibb ranked 11th.

Defensive coach....are you referring to McCartney or the line Coach (Chaplin) 58er?

Defensively i am not as concerned as i am with many other aspects of what we are / aren't seemingly doing.  Too many to list.

Edited May 26, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

Hore looks like an AFL player. Needs to keep working on his disposal and lack of size/pace means he's not the ideal match up for a lot of opponents but he judges the ball in the air, gets to the right spots and his decision making with the ball is solid.

The only concern that could see Hore not playing a lot of games is if Lever takes his role and 2 intercept marking defenders can't play in the same side but I doubt that's the case. 

At this stage I want to see a backline of May, Lever, Hore, Jetta, Salem, Hibberd. Until we get that group on the field together it's hard to know exactly who the best 7th player is to go with them.

Frost is still Frost but I think he's also looking like an AFL player right now with a decent amount of spoils, running out of trouble more than in to it and kicking better than he has before. The question is more does he look good because we've got some pretty slow and average defenders next to him or is he really turning a corner.

7 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Out of 34 players who played two or more matches in 2018, Oscar finished the season ranked 27th statistically 58er.

He wasn't the lowest ranked defender though.  Frosty finished 30th and Hunt the lowest (and lowest ranked of all players) at 34th.  Keep in mind Oscar was often taking the Opp's best forward though.

Up to and including round 9 this season (from 32 players who have played two or more matches)...

Oscar is ranked 20th.  Up 7 places on last year, although many are well off their best or haven't been out there as we know.   The only defender ranked lower after last week was Hibb, sitting at 26th.  Looking at Hibb's last 3 rounds though (including West Coast), he improved out of sight and was ranked 10th overall in that three week block.  Oscar's form also shot through the roof, finishing just behind Hibb ranked 11th.

Defensive coach....are you referring to McCartney or the line Coach (Chaplin) 58er?

Defensively i am not as concerned as i am with many other aspects of what we are / aren't seemingly doing.  Too many to list.

Thanks a lot Rusty seems a fair sort of ranking with the results you gave pretty realistic.

My question re the Defensive Coach was tongue and cheek but the last 5 games since Richmond the defence has been pretty good considering injuries with today 5 first choice not available.

Agree that other parts of our game ( and the game plan also) are well below par.

Mids and forwards have no connection and most players are well behind 2018in form due to pre season ops fitness or feeling the pressure of expectation maybe.

Hopefully the injured will mostly return so the last 10 games should be much improved.

Much appreciated your kind response Rusty and Go Dees.

3 hours ago, 58er said:

Thanks a lot Rusty seems a fair sort of ranking with the results you gave pretty realistic.

My question re the Defensive Coach was tongue and cheek but the last 5 games since Richmond the defence has been pretty good considering injuries with today 5 first choice not available.

Agree that other parts of our game ( and the game plan also) are well below par.

Mids and forwards have no connection and most players are well behind 2018in form due to pre season ops fitness or feeling the pressure of expectation maybe.

Hopefully the injured will mostly return so the last 10 games should be much improved.

Much appreciated your kind response Rusty and Go Dees.

I'm sure things will improve a little with those returning 58 but unfortunately too little too late.

I'm not sure those returning will have that big of an impact as what some here are hoping/suggesting as you tend to find players coming off big interupted pre-seasons / injuries rarely find their way back to their best form consistently, other than the odd decent performance here and there.

I suspect the W/L results will be up and down regardless, just like the rest of the season, with the occasional pleasant surprise win.

Cheers 58 & hope the second half brings some joy.  Couldn't be much worse really and should (in theory) only get better as you suggest. ✌?

I really like Hore. Our new Brett Lovett!?

Frost is a better bet than May at this point in time, so I can't see Frost going anywhere any time soon. That said, I'm sure May will be back in the side as soon as he is fit as Goodwin will need to justify his recruitment.

I feel as though Hore & Lever are ultimately fighting for one position as neither is a great one on one defender. I wouldn't mind seeing Hore play a couple of games on the wing later in the season. Hibberd must be close to the end based on his first ten  weeks, and perhaps Hore will take the role after next year.

58 minutes ago, poita said:

Frost is a better bet than May at this point in time, so I can't see Frost going anywhere any time soon. That said, I'm sure May will be back in the side as soon as he is fit as Goodwin will need to justify his recruitment.

I feel as though Hore & Lever are ultimately fighting for one position as neither is a great one on one defender. I wouldn't mind seeing Hore play a couple of games on the wing later in the season. Hibberd must be close to the end based on his first ten  weeks, and perhaps Hore will take the role after next year.

Strange post. May is injured, and when fully fit is a significantly better player than Frost. He's proven that over a number of seasons. He'll come back in not because of Goody's bias but because he should. I don't know if he'll replace Frost.

Lever is one of the better defenders in the comp, and could be in discussions around the top 2 or 3 if he didn't injure his knee. Hore has done well, and could also co-exist in the same backline, but I'd be picking Lever and May over Hore and Frost if that was the only choice, to be honest there's every chance all 4 will play together. 

I do worry about Frost and his footy nous, too often he gets caught in-between, either running at the player with the ball with no hope of getting there or stopping and running back to his man who he can't get too. He's not necessarily covering other guys, just makes a dumb nothing decision. 

6 hours ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I do worry about Frost and his footy nous, too often he gets caught in-between, either running at the player with the ball with no hope of getting there or stopping and running back to his man who he can't get too. He's not necessarily covering other guys, just makes a dumb nothing decision

I think Frost will benefit from May and Lever in the back line.

Are you in the above quote referring to the play in the last 5 minutes against GWS? I remember looking at it thinking Frost had no faith in Oscar catching his opponent, so he rushed to intercept but then changed his mind. The problem was, even if Frost stayed with his own man, Oscar was useless because he's too slow to catch... well most AFL players. So I feel for Frosty there, he takes the fall.

7 hours ago, poita said:

Frost is a better bet than May at this point in time, so I can't see Frost going anywhere any time soon. That said, I'm sure May will be back in the side as soon as he is fit as Goodwin will need to justify his recruitment.

I feel as though Hore & Lever are ultimately fighting for one position as neither is a great one on one defender. I wouldn't mind seeing Hore play a couple of games on the wing later in the season. Hibberd must be close to the end based on his first ten  weeks, and perhaps Hore will take the role after next year.

More unnecessary pessimism.

"Frost is a better bet than May" is not a sentence that is backed up by any evidence. It's just your way of whinging about May's start to his time here.

Saying that Goodwin is only going play May over Frost to "justify his recruitment" is more whinging. We will play May when he is fit and ready and he will be an improvement on Frost or Oscar or Petty.

12 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

More unnecessary pessimism.

"Frost is a better bet than May" is not a sentence that is backed up by any evidence. It's just your way of whinging about May's start to his time here.

Saying that Goodwin is only going play May over Frost to "justify his recruitment" is more whinging. We will play May when he is fit and ready and he will be an improvement on Frost or Oscar or Petty.

Sorry, I agree with @poita on this one.  Steve May has been very ordanary in ever appearance he has made for us so far.  Understand that he was comming off some injuries, but he still didn't put in the sort of classy, confident performances that many champion players often do off the back of an injury.  So in that respects I think he has to stand up to the plate, show some form and start performing to his past record and capabilities before I'd say he's actually a better bet than Frost 'right now'.

Totally reconise May has the proven past record and capability to be considered better than Frost, but right now, I don't think he is a walk up starter against Frost on current form.  Of course that assessment could change very quickly if May steps right in and blitzes and I'm happy to be proven wrong.

On 5/25/2019 at 5:20 PM, one_demon said:

You're welcome to start your own thread about OMac

You might have started this thread, but you don't own it and other posters can take it in whatever direction they choose. 

Frost and Hore should both remain in our side. 

IMO Salem and Frost have been our best defenders this year and Hore is coming along very, very nicely. 

I sure hope this thread title wasn’t to infer that one of THEM should make way for a returning injured player?

IMO they’re currently above Wagner, Oscar, Lockhart, Petty, Keilty, Lewis, Stretch, even Fritsch lately and perhaps some I’d rather not mention.   

Lets hope the FD decides wisely!?!

 

 

11 hours ago, red&blue1982 said:

I think Frost will benefit from May and Lever in the back line.

Are you in the above quote referring to the play in the last 5 minutes against GWS? I remember looking at it thinking Frost had no faith in Oscar catching his opponent, so he rushed to intercept but then changed his mind. The problem was, even if Frost stayed with his own man, Oscar was useless because he's too slow to catch... well most AFL players. So I feel for Frosty there, he takes the fall.

No not talking about the last 5 minutes of the GWS game at all. He does it at least 3 or 4 times a game, even the commentators mentioned it during the 2nd quarter from memory, for all the improvement this year with tackling, attack on the ball etc. he still gets caught in no-mans land a few times a game.

Blaming Oscar is a cop out, there's been plenty of times on here Oscar has been blamed for not spoiling strong enough or putting body on an opponent when in fact he's been coming across to cover for when Frost has gotten lost again, but I was just pointing out, Frost has a major flaw with his footy IQ which means when May and Lever come back he's not the walk up start most people on here think. I can see a process where it might be May/Lever/Jetta/Salem/relieving mid (Lewis/Jones/KK etc.) plus 2 of Hore/Frost/OMac/Petty depending on match ups, but none of those are certainties once we have our best team on the park, at this stage I'd have Hore in most weeks but that last position could depend on match ups.  

On 5/25/2019 at 8:30 PM, DV8 said:

OMc might replace Frost for teams with bigger key talls.?

Not much point in this DV8, as in using his height, OMac has to be up against his opponent to clear with a punch at  the ball or surprisingly mark the thing. He is always many paces behind, never catching his opponent - this gives the opponent a free reign at the ball and OMac finds himself as the man on the mark.  He is also knocked out of the way and the play, very easily, very often by his opponent, sometimes with the very gentle bumps and his recovery from that is always slow - providing enough time for the opponent to reset and take the ball. OMac gets up very slowly, as well. His pace to compete is absolutely minimal, even though he does have the height to intercede.

Frosty, on the other hand, is nearly always with his opponent so the frequency of his punching clearances is higher in number. Moreso, recently as familiarity with that backline role continues. His athleticism and breakaway speeds (should possession of the ball take place) are tremendous assets to his game and the reset of our whole Team up and down the ground. Frosty's strengths against the talls is far greater, as well. 

1 hour ago, Red and Blue realist said:

No not talking about the last 5 minutes of the GWS game at all. He does it at least 3 or 4 times a game, even the commentators mentioned it during the 2nd quarter from memory, for all the improvement this year with tackling, attack on the ball etc. he still gets caught in no-mans land a few times a game.

Blaming Oscar is a cop out, there's been plenty of times on here Oscar has been blamed for not spoiling strong enough or putting body on an opponent when in fact he's been coming across to cover for when Frost has gotten lost again, but I was just pointing out, Frost has a major flaw with his footy IQ which means when May and Lever come back he's not the walk up start most people on here think. I can see a process where it might be May/Lever/Jetta/Salem/relieving mid (Lewis/Jones/KK etc.) plus 2 of Hore/Frost/OMac/Petty depending on match ups, but none of those are certainties once we have our best team on the park, at this stage I'd have Hore in most weeks but that last position could depend on match ups.  

I see it the other way around. Frosty in a stronger backline will be a real advantage. OMac in a stronger backline will hide. 

3 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

I see it the other way around. Frosty in a stronger backline will be a real advantage. OMac in a stronger backline will hide. 

Possibly, I wasn't advocating 1 over the other, just pointing out that Frost has some major flaws that won't mean he's the automatic pick others think. Playing to the game-plan we have ran with over the last few years we'd normally have 1 tall defender as the deeper player with the others forming a zone. May said when he joined he played best when he knew he had Rory Thompson sitting back behind him. While Frost has improved dramatically in doing this, he still gets caught out knowing when to go to the ball and when to stay on his man, which has cost a lot of shots on goal this year.

9 hours ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I was just pointing out, Frost has a major flaw with his footy IQ

Does he really...  or is it more he has an issue with composure,  maybe more-so,  which can cause him to make mistakes,  and do the

occasional wrong thing, out of mild panic.  They both panic, imv...  but OMc's panic area is hidden undercover and he equally,  makes mistakes.

One is the Energizer battery man,    the other is an AFL Sloth, to this point.

 

Frost creates more on offense,  imo.

I think they will both improve in time,  with better players supporting.

.

Edited May 28, 20195 yr by DV8

On 5/27/2019 at 2:56 PM, poita said:

Frost is a better bet than May at this point in time, so I can't see Frost going anywhere any time soon. That said, I'm sure May will be back in the side as soon as he is fit as Goodwin will need to justify his recruitment.

I feel as though Hore & Lever are ultimately fighting for one position as neither is a great one on one defender. I wouldn't mind seeing Hore play a couple of games on the wing later in the season. Hibberd must be close to the end based on his first ten  weeks, and perhaps Hore will take the role after next year.

Any merit in putting Frost on to the wing - notwithstanding occasional the brain fade and shanks, his height, pace and confidence to take things on are some strong attributes.