Lack of marking.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

We have been beaten in this field in every game.

Gawn, Tmac, Weid and other talls have not taken their usual tally. Even against the Swans we were about 20 down. Hogan was prolific  but so were the others last year. Is it just               confidence? 

Need to turn it around. 

 

[DV8 2,271]

11 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

We have been beaten in this field in every game.

Gawn, Tmac, Weid and other talls have not taken their usual tally. Even against the Swans we were about 20 down. Hogan was prolific  but so were the others last year. Is it just               confidence? 

Need to turn it around. 

 

It's a a Melbourne trait of recent decades,  since the late 90's imo. We have never been a power marking club like the Hawks and Bombers. 

Probably closer to the Blues,  in the way we traditionally play.

 

Another thing I believe we lack,  which I think goes hand in hand with the marking issue you've raised... is Body on Body. In my time,  we've never been good at this either... And I believe both aspects are of the physical strength/aggression side of the game.    Something we have never dominated in.

Edited April 12, 2019 by DV8

[tiers 2,843]

Let's separate the issue into pack/contested high marks and leading marks.

We have not been as dominant in pack marks as we would expect with Gawn, TMac, Preuss, Weideman running around from kick ins and long transfers down the ground. Can't explain why but they just don't stick even when we get first hands to the ball and we seem to be easily outmarked.

Better at one on one contested marks but not by enough.

Then we are behind other teams in our ability to deliver direct passes to leading targets (not targets wide on a wing). Again either the ball doesn't stick or the passes do not advantage team mates by kicking to the open side rather than dropping the ball into a contest.

Our ability at chaos ground balls is not enough to overcome these deficiencies and the coaching team should be working hard at a fix.

 

[leave it to deever 17,511]

22 minutes ago, DV8 said:

good at this either... And I believe both aspects are of the physical strength/aggression side

I thought that last year this was an area we really improved in. perhaps when Vanders and May return it will be rectified to your standard. 

[58er 6,464]

23 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

We have been beaten in this field in every game.

Gawn, Tmac, Weid and other talls have not taken their usual tally. Even against the Swans we were about 20 down. Hogan was prolific  but so were the others last year. Is it just               confidence? 

Need to turn it around. 

 

Part of th reason is that our defence is taught to punch not mark plus Oscar never goes for or takes  any marks.

Marty Hore was a revelation last night even though a great proportion were chest ones.

We don't seem to recruit great high marks for defence since Tommy Mac and of course we have lost Jeremy Howe.

If you matk you retain  possession and can control the ball instead of a 50% chance from a punch ball up or throw in.

Maybe when our defence is back to full strength Lever as interceptor and May ads one on one or pack  will alter this.

We await with hope and interest.

[DV8 2,271]

12 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

I thought that last year this was an area we really improved in. perhaps when Vanders and May return it will be rectified to your standard. 

I hope so.   I'd love to see Melbournefc,  be more powerful marking around the ground...  and being smart and strong,  using the body. 

It would be a nice change for US older RednBlue fans,  who are traditionally only used to players running around the boundary line carrying the ball,  to just turn it over in our forwardline. Then it would come back down the corridor, for a goal.

[DV8 2,271]

11 minutes ago, 58er said:

Part of th reason is that our defence is taught to punch not mark plus Oscar never goes for or takes  any marks.

Marty Hore was a revelation last night even though a great proportion were chest ones.

We don't seem to recruit great high marks for defence since Tommy Mac and of course we have lost Jeremy Howe.

If you matk you retain  possession and can control the ball instead of a 50% chance from a punch ball up or throw in.

Maybe when our defence is back to full strength Lever as interceptor and May ads one on one or pack  will alter this.

We await with hope and interest.

We need a lot more midfield Marks in transition... and our forwards to mark more often.  Our talls,  and our Melkshm sized forwards.

[DeeZee 7,429]

With some like Pruess up forward, you’ll find that TMac will take more marks , and when Lever and May get back even more strong mark takers.

Dare I also add Vanders and Joel Smith both strong in the air.

[Undeeterred 3,124]

32 minutes ago, tiers said:

Let's separate the issue into pack/contested high marks and leading marks.

We have not been as dominant in pack marks as we would expect with Gawn, TMac, Preuss, Weideman running around from kick ins and long transfers down the ground. Can't explain why but they just don't stick even when we get first hands to the ball and we seem to be easily outmarked.

Better at one on one contested marks but not by enough.

Then we are behind other teams in our ability to deliver direct passes to leading targets (not targets wide on a wing). Again either the ball doesn't stick or the passes do not advantage team mates by kicking to the open side rather than dropping the ball into a contest.

Our ability at chaos ground balls is not enough to overcome these deficiencies and the coaching team should be working hard at a fix.

 

Not sure about this.

Gawn is a sensational pack mark and pulled in a few last night which reminded me of last year. He's taken a number of huge contested marks down back in particular to save goals, but up forward as well.

Weeds is getting up there, and Tom McDonald is probably the only player we've had in years who takes one grab marks at his highest point.

Brayshaw and Oliver have very strong hands for young mids

And Melksham is a great mark for his size.

Concern is overblown. We're fine

[Moonshadow 17,676]

30 minutes ago, 58er said:

Part of th reason is that our defence is taught to punch not mark plus Oscar never goes for or takes  any marks.

Marty Hore was a revelation last night even though a great proportion were chest ones.

We don't seem to recruit great high marks for defence since Tommy Mac and of course we have lost Jeremy Howe.

If you matk you retain  possession and can control the ball instead of a 50% chance from a punch ball up or throw in.

Maybe when our defence is back to full strength Lever as interceptor and May ads one on one or pack  will alter this.

We await with hope and interest.

He used to initially, and was/is quite a good mark. I think he's either been told to punch or does it habitually due to lack of confidence.

I get frustrated watching every Melbourne player near a backline (and forward line) contest either flying for the mark or spoiling our players going for the mark. And no one staying down to mop up. All up, no one down. Jetta is a classic at this. He is a good mark and intercept for his size, but not as the 4th man up!

[58er 6,464]

4 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

He used to initially, and was/is quite a good mark. I think he's either been told to punch or does it habitually due to lack of confidence.

I get frustrated watching every Melbourne player near a backline (and forward line) contest either flying for the mark or spoiling our players going for the mark. And no one staying down to mop up. All up, no one down. Jetta is a classic at this. He is a good mark and intercept for his size, but not as the 4th man up!

Agree MS about Jetta too fond of flying for impossible fourth in line marks

Can't understand thebbackline (or any other coach) Coach hasn't noticed and  got him  out of this very bad habit.

[Supermercado 2,797]

Felt like we're never a good contested mark team, so I went back and looked at the stats and we were second last year behind West Coast. Was a bit of an anomaly considering we've been 11th/3rd/11th/16th in the years before that.

3rd place in 2015 was propped up by Hogan's 47 (third most in the league), and last year Gawn had 55 for third best in the league.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

6 hours ago, Supermercado said:

Felt like we're never a good contested mark team, so I went back and looked at the stats and we were second last year behind West Coast. Was a bit of an anomaly considering we've been 11th/3rd/11th/16th in the years before that.

3rd place in 2015 was propped up by Hogan's 47 (third most in the league), and last year Gawn had 55 for third best in the league.

Spot on. Its why I posted. This years marking deficit has been a glaring problem especially with the players I mentioned.

Gawn took several massive grabs in the swans 2nd half and I hope it continues. Im sure Lever and May will make a difference but somthing up fwd needs to change asap.

Edited April 13, 2019 by leave it to deever

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

I would suggest it’s a matter of gameplan. Some teams seek to control the play and tempo with a lot of short passes.  As we’re (usually) so good with the contested ball, we seek to keep the ball moving forward as quickly as possible. 

[DV8 2,271]

33 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

I would suggest it’s a matter of gameplan. Some teams seek to control the play and tempo with a lot of short passes.  As we’re (usually) so good with the contested ball, we seek to keep the ball moving forward as quickly as possible. 

We still Need the ability to take those contested marks across the midfield...  for when things are hot and not as desired.

 

This is where Maxy and Preuss should focus on...  because when we're under the pump,  the marks in this part of the ground can ensure our forwards are still supplied...  and we can slow the tempo down, if required.

Even wasting the clock in a tight finish when our opponents are forging.

[Ugottobekidding 1,191]

Marking is very much a must for a forward

[Deemania since 56 6,669]

On 4/12/2019 at 10:49 PM, DeeZee said:

With some like Pruess up forward, you’ll find that TMac will take more marks , and when Lever and May get back even more strong mark takers.

Dare I also add Vanders and Joel Smith both strong in the air.

Preuss is a must up forward against the Saints to enable the forward movement for marking cleanly by himself, for TMac and for the Weed. It will also assist crumbing goal opportunists, and Petracca and Melksham. We miss Joel Smith and AVB down there, as well. Our small brigade must be on its game big-time, ready for anything.

[58er 6,464]

Dee I am not sure we can miss a forward that's played about 1and a half games albeit injured fir half of that period!!

And AVB we have had fir say 6 games yes we miss him.

Smaller types must be proactive and energetic on Sat to ensure we kick a winning score!

[Deemania since 56 6,669]

On 4/12/2019 at 11:04 PM, Moonshadow said:

Jetta is a classic at this. He is a good mark and intercept for his size, but not as the 4th man up!

This is what actually happens, so often. Analysis of the numbers that go up for a mark indicates confusion and appears to be uncontrolled. Jetta, whilst a good mark and effective at one-on-one contests would be better utilised down back as a crumber that stays on the ground, so to speak for rather obvious reasons. I so often conclude that in 'winning contests' from which we fare so badly to make it a 'losing contest' is because the players know that the primary big man won't win the ball - OMac, let alone go for the mark in a pack or clear the ball with directed punches to teammates on the ground. He just must be supported by a jumbled backline as he makes token gestures of the defence functions. After observations of deep backline playmaking that spans (for me) around 58 years, I cannot recall another KPD so inept who requires the entire backline to assist his singular team function, and this leaves the count of the backline marks category at very low levels and creates obvious panic amongst the players that is relatively easy for opponents to exploit and to fabricate scores from nothing.  

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,842]

Pedersen was a pretty decent pack and high mark at times.

I think we are also missing Hannan's marking ability.  Although I feel he doesn't pull down nearly enough of the high marks he jumps for, he has a good knack of either getting on a lead and racking them up that way, or reading the flight of the ball well, positioning himself well and taking those sneaky marks that elude the main pack.

The other aspect to all this is how well the ball is kicked in to the forwardline, either as bombs, poorly executed passes or alternately as well weighted kicks to the advantage of our player - Melksham and probably a few others are exelent proponents of the latter.  Makes such a difference.  I think this is one area that we improved at times last year and have somewhat fallen away at this year so far.  We could have got so much more milage out of big Preuss on Thursday night if we had have kicked it to him better.  Even kicking to a man mountain like Preuss, we can (and mostly were) kicking it to a position and in a way that it was too easy to spoil.

[loges 6,767]

To me Weideman has gone back to how he was playing before his "breakout" game against Geelong. You get a couple of good plays out of him a game but that"s it. I know he's young but we need more out of him.

[SPC 3,551]

We played our best footy last year, when we went smaller in the forward line and just got the ball to ground. As stated already, contested marking is not our go- we should always look at hitting up a forwarded with a 20-30 meter kick in space. 

[rjay 25,012]

At the moment Tommy Mac couldn't catch a cold & Maxy is not much better.

Those 2 get their mojo back & our contested figures come up dramatically.

...but as 'team' says a lot of general around the ground marking is about game plan.

We're not a tempo team, we're more ballistic...

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,842]

1 hour ago, loges said:

To me Weideman has gone back to how he was playing before his "breakout" game against Geelong. You get a couple of good plays out of him a game but that"s it. I know he's young but we need more out of him.

The whole team has gone back to what it was before Weid had his breakout game, but I know where you are comming from.  It's so much easier to be a good player in a dominant side.

It's probably because we don't have much else to replace him with now, but I've still seen some good signs from Weid that he is making a valuable contribution and I'm backing him to keep improving.

 

Highlights from him for me from Thursday night were:

*  That vision and switch into the centre in the second(third?) quarter which cleared the way for us to use the corridor and resulted in a goal;

*  Classy 50 goal under pressure at the start of the last quarter which really steadied us;

*  Thought he generally got more involved in the last quarter, perhaps taking a few solid grabs for us comming out of defense, a few deft knocks to the advantacge of our players and thought he tackled/harassed and showed good desperateration to win.

[Deemania since 56 6,669]

6 hours ago, SPC said:

We played our best footy last year, when we went smaller in the forward line and just got the ball to ground. As stated already, contested marking is not our go- we should always look at hitting up a forwarded with a 20-30 meter kick in space. 

The tandem effect of Melk and Hannan is vital; these two look for opportunities and space, and Hannan usually lands on two feet ready to go and/or tap on to advantage. Other forwards need to realise this advantage.