Training - Wednesday 16th January, 2019

[Gator 17,377]

8 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Not sure about a lot of that.

The Pies don't have 2 key forwards and a resting ruck. De Goey is a very undersized full forward, a throw back to when full forwards were a thing. Mihocek is a hard working competitor who's just key position sized. Cox is really a forward in a ruckmans body. He leaps at the ball and can lead like a forward. The 3 options work well together - a super tall, a medium and a small marking option. Plus Stephenson as a zippy leading player.

The Eagles forward line works for a lot of reasons, a large part of which is that they left Vardy and Lycett on the bench for a lot of the grand final! That puts a toll on their mids and flankers to cover rotations but they can do that because they have a lot of experienced players. We're slowly getting older but we'd be mad to waste rotations when our midfield was mainly kids. The other big reason it works is because Josh Kennedy is a tackling/pressure machine as is Darling who is very mobile and short for a 2nd key forward. They also have great pressure medium/small players.

The gains of covering Max with a proper ruck for 20-25% of the game (or 5-7 minutes in the middle of each quarter) have to weighed against the losses in our forward line. I don't think a forward line with 2 genuine tall marking options in  T Mc and  Weid as well as  a number of medium sized players - Melksham, Petracca and Hannan/Vanders/Harmes/Oliver/Fritsch is going to work with a 200cm+ lump in the way. The final thing to consider is that Weid in the ruck seemed to rejuvenate him as a player. He might not win a lot of taps but he follows up and tackles well, links up in general play somewhat like a midfielder and gets involved in the game.

A-grade summation.

[Gator 17,377]

1 minute ago, stevethemanjordan said:

A common misunderstanding. 

One's work ethic has a direct correlation to their aerobic capacity (or any fitness component for that matter). 

Guys like Viney and Jones have become some of our strongest runners. Players that weren't considered elite runners before they came to the club, but are now through sheer determination and will. So it's actually completely between the ears. 

You're right that Trac may never become an aerobic beast. But not for the reasons you think. 

Trac could become anything if he adopted the same mindset as someone like Viney. 

I'm sure everyone has heard about the story of Ablett before he reached greatness..

I fully agree except I believe Jones was a very good junior triathlete before he came to the club, so I think he was always pretty strong in his running.

Petracca's weight is his strength.  It's his size that can potentially make him a competition powerhouse.  He does need to improve his running and if he's a couple of kilos overweight then sure he needs to lose it, but I doubt his weight is an issue.  

I reckon Petracca is 25-30% below his optimum and much of that will come with finding easier ball.  He averages 20 disposals per game and 48% of his possessions are contested, which is very high and more in tune with an inside mid.  He needs to find easier footy on the outside through smarts and work ethic and lift those uncontested possessions.  If he can do that he'll make great advances.

[Demonland 72,217]

Can someone from the "Petracca is overweight" camp please show your workings as to how you've come to that conclusion?

[hemingway 7,627]

It is obvious that footballers need to train hard, gaining and maintaining supreme fitness.

However, there are always going to be differences between players aerobic fitness based on age, height, weight and running economy.

In distance running, the better performing athletes run more than 100k per week. Training over longer distances for events such as the 5000m, 10000m or marathon require superior aerobic capacity. You cannot build strength and aerobic fitness unless you run the kilometres. Rob DeCastella was successful because he ran 100-150k per week continuously uninterrupted from injury over 10-15 years. He ran every day and had a physiology and sensible training regime that prevented him from incurring injuries that plagued most of his peers. For shorter distances such as 800 or 1500m, you need a combination of aerobic and anaerobic fitness.  The latter is true of footballers. 

Given that a team of footballers are all different in age, height, weight, and, importantly, running economy, means that some will be better runners than others. Not all footballers can have the same level of aerobic fitness and never should. Trac is never going to have the same aerobic capacity as ANB. Players like Viney and Jones may have heavier body builds and have superior aerobic fitness but I would argue that they have better running economy. At the same time, Viney and Jones are probably susceptible to injury given the amount of running they do.  

 

[daisycutter 29,616]

8 minutes ago, Demonland said:

Can someone from the "Petracca is overweight" camp please show your workings as to how you've come to that conclusion?

 

 

 

(i'm not in any camp) the big problem is we don't know his current weight, and you can't measure it just be looking at photos

the 96kg quoted seems to be a figure that is 12 to 18 months old so we just don't know his current weight which could be much less

i would think (intuitively) that 96kg for his height and playing afl as it is played now, seems on the high side

and, importantly, weight is not a measure of strength. de goey for example is very strong and is taller but lighter than tracc.....just saying

[ManDee 7,153]

7 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

(i'm not in any camp) the big problem is we don't know his current weight, and you can't measure it just be looking at photos

the 96kg quoted seems to be a figure that is 12 to 18 months old so we just don't know his current weight which could be much less

i would think (intuitively) that 96kg for his height and playing afl as it is played now, seems on the high side

and, importantly, weight is not a measure of strength. de goey for example is very strong and is taller but lighter than tracc.....just saying

DC, I have little faith in figures provided by footy clubs. I have found that heights listed are often way off, as for weight that is harder to determine. I am 184cm and tower over some players listed at 186cm 

[Vagg 2,439]

4 minutes ago, ManDee said:

 I am 184cm and tower over some players listed at 186cm 

Maybe you're just tall for your height...!

[Its Time for Another 4,225]

9 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Not sure about a lot of that.

The Pies don't have 2 key forwards and a resting ruck. De Goey is a very undersized full forward, a throw back to when full forwards were a thing. Mihocek is a hard working competitor who's just key position sized. Cox is really a forward in a ruckmans body. He leaps at the ball and can lead like a forward. The 3 options work well together - a super tall, a medium and a small marking option. Plus Stephenson as a zippy leading player.

The Eagles forward line works for a lot of reasons, a large part of which is that they left Vardy and Lycett on the bench for a lot of the grand final! That puts a toll on their mids and flankers to cover rotations but they can do that because they have a lot of experienced players. We're slowly getting older but we'd be mad to waste rotations when our midfield was mainly kids. The other big reason it works is because Josh Kennedy is a tackling/pressure machine as is Darling who is very mobile and short for a 2nd key forward. They also have great pressure medium/small players.

The gains of covering Max with a proper ruck for 20-25% of the game (or 5-7 minutes in the middle of each quarter) have to weighed against the losses in our forward line. I don't think a forward line with 2 genuine tall marking options in  T Mc and  Weid as well as  a number of medium sized players - Melksham, Petracca and Hannan/Vanders/Harmes/Oliver/Fritsch is going to work with a 200cm+ lump in the way. The final thing to consider is that Weid in the ruck seemed to rejuvenate him as a player. He might not win a lot of taps but he follows up and tackles well, links up in general play somewhat like a midfielder and gets involved in the game.

Pies also had Sier in the forward line. He and Mihocek are the same height as Darling. Pies have just recruited Roughead. They look like they have the same view of the need for a genuine second ruckman and 3rd tall in the forward line.

I could see Maxy causing a major headache in our forward line which may well justify him playing less time in the ruck. It will also likely preserve his career. 

We were getting plenty of i50's last season we couldn't convert them. This may be an answer. We'll know soon enough.  

 

[rjay 24,935]

1 minute ago, It's Time said:

Pies also had Sier in the forward line. He and Mihocek are the same height as Darling. Pies have just recruited Roughead. They look like they have the same view of the need for a genuine second ruckman and 3rd tall in the forward line.

I could see Maxy causing a major headache in our forward line which may well justify him playing less time in the ruck. It will also likely preserve his career. 

We were getting plenty of i50's last season we couldn't convert them. This may be an answer. We'll know soon enough.  

 

More likely to be used as a KPD where the Pies are a bit light on...

[chook fowler 19,459]

50 minutes ago, Demonland said:

Can someone from the "Petracca is overweight" camp please show your workings as to how you've come to that conclusion?

i wouldn't mind that rig.

[Its Time for Another 4,225]

5 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

i wouldn't mind that rig.

That's what my body looks like. It's just buried very deep somewhere. Probably the same place as my footy skills. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by It's Time

[hemingway 7,627]

33 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

(i'm not in any camp) the big problem is we don't know his current weight, and you can't measure it just be looking at photos

the 96kg quoted seems to be a figure that is 12 to 18 months old so we just don't know his current weight which could be much less

i would think (intuitively) that 96kg for his height and playing afl as it is played now, seems on the high side

and, importantly, weight is not a measure of strength. de goey for example is very strong and is taller but lighter than tracc.....just saying

It may be that Petracca can lose a few kilos but I suspect that it would only be 2 kilos based on his body type.

My worry with Trac has always been his knees rather than his aerobic fitness. His bulk/weight  suggests that there is a lot of force going through his knees. It seems that his legs and hips are too big for his knees. He does seem a bit stiff in his lower back making him more susceptible to hamstring injury.

However, this may also mean that his quads and his hamstrings are very strong which provides some protection from knee injury. Its why footballers do a lot of weight and strength training on quads and hammys.  At the same time, one would hope that as well as strength conditioning, Trac works daily on his flexibility. The reason why all professional sportspeople incorporate yoga, pilates and just plain stretching into their programs.

Its all a question of balance that no doubt club medicos and fitness staff are all over. 

[Its Time for Another 4,225]

36 minutes ago, rjay said:

More likely to be used as a KPD where the Pies are a bit light on...

Pies are a bit light on everywhere. Had no right to be in a GF with the positional deficiencies they have everywhere except the midfield. Forward line is a lumbering 211 American who is so so as a forward and less than so so as a ruckman given he is the equal tallest player to ever play the game. Other than him they only have two 191cm key forwards. Not really the height of a key forward anymore. We all no the deficiencies they have in the backline. Amazing what they achieved.   Mihocek isn't even on their main list he's still on the rookie list for 2019 according to their website 

[Watson11 2,240]

9 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Not sure about a lot of that.

The Pies don't have 2 key forwards and a resting ruck. De Goey is a very undersized full forward, a throw back to when full forwards were a thing. Mihocek is a hard working competitor who's just key position sized. Cox is really a forward in a ruckmans body. He leaps at the ball and can lead like a forward. The 3 options work well together - a super tall, a medium and a small marking option. Plus Stephenson as a zippy leading player.

The Eagles forward line works for a lot of reasons, a large part of which is that they left Vardy and Lycett on the bench for a lot of the grand final! That puts a toll on their mids and flankers to cover rotations but they can do that because they have a lot of experienced players. We're slowly getting older but we'd be mad to waste rotations when our midfield was mainly kids. The other big reason it works is because Josh Kennedy is a tackling/pressure machine as is Darling who is very mobile and short for a 2nd key forward. They also have great pressure medium/small players.

The gains of covering Max with a proper ruck for 20-25% of the game (or 5-7 minutes in the middle of each quarter) have to weighed against the losses in our forward line. I don't think a forward line with 2 genuine tall marking options in  T Mc and  Weid as well as  a number of medium sized players - Melksham, Petracca and Hannan/Vanders/Harmes/Oliver/Fritsch is going to work with a 200cm+ lump in the way. The final thing to consider is that Weid in the ruck seemed to rejuvenate him as a player. He might not win a lot of taps but he follows up and tackles well, links up in general play somewhat like a midfielder and gets involved in the game.

 You make good points re young mids but the dual eagles rucks helped them win a flag.  In the last 2 finals they came up against the 2 dominant ruckman in the game and completely did them over.  In the GF, both WC rucks were on the ground for over 20% of the time, and in that time Vardy kicked a crucial goal and had a hand in a couple of others.  And if we think we can play Max for as many minutes in 2019 as he did in 2018 then he’ll be cooked by September again.

We would have to use the rotations in a similar way to WC, and not just park Preuss forward.   And it is a rotation that is super hard to match up on.  Petracca rotating to the middle, Preuss to the ruck, Gawn forward creates an imbalance.  One of our big issues in big games was lots of inside 50s resulting in no goals.  Part of the issue was not lowering our eyes, but a bigger issue was not providing genuine marking contests with long bombs.  When games unfold with lots of pressure and forward space is closed down, there will be lots of long balls and being able to isolate the third defender creates opportunity.

I’m also hoping Wied becomes our tackling machine.  He has the right attitude.

[Slartibartfast 17,307]

I just don't get what the issue is with Trac.  I reckon he had a really good season last year playing a difficult position and contributing consistently.  I watched a few games since season end and this week watched the game against Freo in Darwin specifically to watch Billy Stretch.  Petracca was very good that game and close to best on.  If you watch the two finals games he was influential and his touches are quality and his vision elite.  He uses the ball exceptionally well and just needs to overcome the yips in goal kicking to be even better.

I doubt the footy department have any of the concerns that are often expressed here about Petracca.  He's just finished his third year of playing at this level and doing very well.  People's negative comments are based more on their heightened expectations than any failing in Petracca's performance.

The kid is a gun.

[DV8 2,271]

4 hours ago, Demonland said:

Can someone from the "Petracca is overweight" camp please show your workings as to how you've come to that conclusion?

 

.... Hopefully this is the start ???   of a drop in weight,  and better fitness condition,  this 2019 preseason ???

 

Now Mfc website 2019 info.

 

Cristian Petracca.  Height 186 cms.   Weight 96 kgs.

 

 

 

 

Aaron vandenBerg Height 188 cms  Weight  90 Kgs

 

 

Vanders is a powerful player. is taller than Tracca, and has trimmed his frame to sustain his body and condition in the midfield...  and this info says he is 6 Kgs lighter than Tracca's numbers.

 

 

Now last seasons  "Bluey",  backs up where the coaches have our players pegged on last seasons output.

2018 Melbourne best and fairest votes

1/ Max Gawn 657

2/ Clayton Oliver 595

3/ James Harmes 468

4/ Nathan Jones 449

5/ Tom McDonald 433

6/ Angus Brayshaw 429

7/ Jake Melksham 428

8/ Christian Salem 403

9/ Neville Jetta 383

10/ Jordan Lewis 366

11/ Jesse Hogan 365

12/ Oscar McDonald 346

13/ Alex Neal-Bullen 322

14/ Michael Hibberd 317

15/ Christian Petracca 268

16/ Bayley Fritsch 261

17/ Jack Viney 244

18/ Charlie Spargo 209

19/ Mitch Hannan 182

20/ Sam Frost 174

-------------------------------------------

 

Petracca is so far content to follow other elite sportspeople.

When will he show he wants to become a true elite himself,  instead of admiring his  "elite friends"  fromn afar...  as they star for their clubs, and chosen sports ?

 

The time IS Now, for young Christian to step up...  get fitter,  fully commit to his chosen sport,  and mature into a fine elite player that he is fully capable of being.

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by DV8

[daisycutter 29,616]

23 minutes ago, DV8 said:

 

.... Hopefully this is the start ???   of a drop in weight,  and better fitness condition,  this 2019 preseason ???

 

Now Mfc website 2019 info.

 

Cristian Petracca.  Height 186 cms.   Weight 96 kgs.

 

how do you know this info is updated for 2019?  a year ago it was the same, as it was in last year's club Heartbeat magazine

until you know his current weight it is just guess work

[binman 43,016]

3 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I just don't get what the issue is with Trac.  I reckon he had a really good season last year playing a difficult position and contributing consistently.  I watched a few games since season end and this week watched the game against Freo in Darwin specifically to watch Billy Stretch.  Petracca was very good that game and close to best on.  If you watch the two finals games he was influential and his touches are quality and his vision elite.  He uses the ball exceptionally well and just needs to overcome the yips in goal kicking to be even better.

I doubt the footy department have any of the concerns that are often expressed here about Petracca.  He's just finished his third year of playing at this level and doing very well.  People's negative comments are based more on their heightened expectations than any failing in Petracca's performance.

The kid is a gun.

Agree, on all points.

I think it is really good point that a semi permanent mid size forward position is a really hard one to play. And i reckon that fact gets overlooked a bit when people assess trac's performance. Mids can pad their possession numbers but forwards have little chance to do so and most possessions are in the critical part of the ground

His possession numbers are strong given his role. I think it was Prodee that noted half his possessions are are contested, which is remarkable as forward. terrific forward pressure. Jeffy can only dream of that sort of percentage.

I said it a couple of times last year bit i would really like trac to be a bit more selfish and take some more shots. He so often looks to set other players up, which is admirable and i guess team rules but in some ways it feels as rather being the over confident player he is often portrayed as he works hard to contain the star quality. I don't want him to be like Stringer was at the dogs, but have some freedom to really attack a game. Release the beast - a bit more often.

If he can average 2 goals a game we will have a lethal forward line, even without hogan

[Gator 17,377]

5 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I just don't get what the issue is with Trac.  I reckon he had a really good season last year playing a difficult position and contributing consistently.  I watched a few games since season end and this week watched the game against Freo in Darwin specifically to watch Billy Stretch.  Petracca was very good that game and close to best on.  If you watch the two finals games he was influential and his touches are quality and his vision elite.  He uses the ball exceptionally well and just needs to overcome the yips in goal kicking to be even better.

I doubt the footy department have any of the concerns that are often expressed here about Petracca.  He's just finished his third year of playing at this level and doing very well.  People's negative comments are based more on their heightened expectations than any failing in Petracca's performance.

The kid is a gun.

I sort of agree, because I really value when he touches the footy and I don't agree.

As I stated earlier, 48% of his possessions are contested possessions, which more mirrors an inside mid than an occasional midfielder and flanker.  I'd like to see his disposal rate go from an average of 20 to 25, which will happen if he's able to increase his uncontested possessions.

Paradoxically, I think he's becoming underrated due to the criticism he receives, while at the same time I think he can become a much better player.  I expect a significantly better 2019. 

And he's the sort of player that if he takes that next step he takes us a step closer to a flag.

Edited January 17, 2019 by ProDee

[tiers 2,840]

Tracca has been at the club for several years now. In his dedication to the recovery from the ACL he showed that he was determined to get the best out of his body.

We have a highly qualified and professional conditioning team looking after his development. If any one has any serious and objective evidence that either Tracca or the team around him are slacking, then please provide it. And not just idle speculation or bemoaning the fact that Tracca is not trying hard enough or has not reached the standards that you, not the club, believe he should have.

I would much rather place my trust in the conditioning team and accept that Tracca is Tracca, not some fanciful or fictitious version that others expect him to be, and is being conditioned to prepare him for the role that the coaches want him to fill.

[DV8 2,271]

2 hours ago, daisycutter said:

how do you know this info is updated for 2019?  a year ago it was the same, as it was in last year's club Heartbeat magazine

until you know his current weight it is just guess work

I don't, but it is all we have, to go on.

So based on Ptracca's last season, he is improving, buy at a slow rate...  and doesn't get involved enough times and win enough possession for mine, and I'd like to see his 1%'s  higher. tackles, etc. 

 

In short, I want to see him get busier as a player...    call it being more consistent, if that's what you like? 

Staying more involved in the play for longer periods.

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

I don't understand the offence that so many are taking to the comments of Petracca's physique.  I haven't seen posters saying that he is fat, undisciplined or lazy; it's not a skin-folds issue with him.  I am however of the belief that he would have a much more consistent impact on matches if he was lugging around 90kg frame as apposed to a 96kg one.

He's the 7th heaviest player on our list and the 22nd tallest...

[daisycutter 29,616]

25 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

I don't understand the offence that so many are taking to the comments of Petracca's physique.  I haven't seen posters saying that he is fat, undisciplined or lazy; it's not a skin-folds issue with him.  I am however of the belief that he would have a much more consistent impact on matches if he was lugging around 90kg frame as apposed to a 96kg one.

He's the 7th heaviest player on our list and the 22nd tallest...

well we are "arguing" about his weight based on figures that are a year old for all we know

until we get some current verifiable data it is somewhat meaningless

i tend to agree that if he was in fact 96kg then at least on the surface this would seem sub-optimal (imho)

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

Put a shirt on ya fatty. 

[Gator 17,377]

1 hour ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

I don't understand the offence that so many are taking to the comments of Petracca's physique.  I haven't seen posters saying that he is fat, undisciplined or lazy; it's not a skin-folds issue with him.  I am however of the belief that he would have a much more consistent impact on matches if he was lugging around 90kg frame as apposed to a 96kg one.

He's the 7th heaviest player on our list and the 22nd tallest...

Have you seen his frame ?

90kg for Petracca would not only be counterproductive it would be ridiculous.

You think he should weigh 3kg more than Viney ?  96kg is fine for Petracca's physique.