15 hours ago, ProDee said:

I'm just not a fan of playing Preuss and Gawn.  I very much doubt it's sustainable.  I see it only happening on the odd occasion and it will largely depend on matchups.  If I'm wrong I'm wrong.  I won't be.

 

You will be wrong, Preuss came across because Melbourne said that they will play him and Gawn. Typical set-up will be Tom McD at CHF leading way up. Weids at FF leading to the ball carrier and resting ruckman in the forward pocket or on the bench. You will also see Weids and Tom McD play very little ruck; this hurt Melbourne when they did that last year as they started losing most of the centre breaks.

They will try and use Gawn's and Preuss' height to stretch defence match-ups, might even force some teams to play their second ruckman in defence.

 

 

5 minutes ago, ickey_11 said:

You will be wrong, Preuss came across because Melbourne said that they will play him and Gawn. Typical set-up will be Tom McD at CHF leading way up. Weids at FF leading to the ball carrier and resting ruckman in the forward pocket or on the bench. You will also see Weids and Tom McD play very little ruck; this hurt Melbourne when they did that last year as they started losing most of the centre breaks.

They will try and use Gawn's and Preuss' height to stretch defence match-ups, might even force some teams to play their second ruckman in defence.

 

 

Of course they'll try it.

Not often though.

14 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Of course they'll try it.

Not often though.

 @ProDee- elaborate why 'they' wont try it often. What's the logic behind that from your persepctive? 

On this - my thoughts are - that surely Preuss wouldn't have come if he was continuing to be a bit part player and surely the FD didn't offer him something that they're not going to commit to? (form warranted).

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Engorged Onion

40 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

 @ProDee- elaborate why 'they' wont try it often. What's the logic behind that from your persepctive? 

Use your common sense.

TBH I am struggling to justify a spot for Lewis - but can you drop a guy with his status, is he untouchable?

I feel like last year he played the backline sweeper, stepping in for Lever, but I'm not sure of his role given he's not the quickest mover.  

4 hours ago, rjay said:

No Bradtke or Chandler?

Looks pretty solid though...

I didn't put any player that was in the development phase so I left out Bradtke, Chandler, Bedford, Neitschke and Jordon. The other 17 listed Melbourne players are ready to go including Sparrow.

FB: - N.JETTA(180cm) - S.MAY(193cm) - M.HIBBERD(186cm)

HB:  - J.LEVER(195cm) - S.FROST(194cm) -  C.SALEM(183cm)

? - J.HARMES(185cm) - C.OLIVER(187cm) - K.KOLODJASHNIJ(190cm)

HF: - C.PETRACCA(186cm) - S.WEIDEMAN(195cm) - J.MELKSHAM(186cm)

FF: - A.VANDENBERG(188cm) - T.McDONALD(194cm) - A.NEAL-BULLEN(182cm)

RR: - M.GAWN(208cm) - A.BRAYSHAW(187cm) - J.VINEY(178cm)

INT: - N.JONES(180cm), B.FRITSCH (188cm), J.SMITH(191cm), B.PRUESS(206cm) 

EMG: O.McDONALD(196cm), M.HANNAN(189cm), C.SPARGO(173cm), J.LEWIS(186cm)

If Lever doesn't get up then replace with Lewis. O.mac doesn't get into the 22 just yet as he's spent the majority of preseason in rehab while Frost has been tracking nicely.

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Use your common sense.

i don't have any - walk me through it.

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

Of course they'll try it.

Not often though.

I disagree PD, I think both Tommy and Weid benefit and do well from time up the ground. I reckon Goodwin has a plan to evolve this part of our setup and further improve our midfield/clearance dominance by addressing the only area of weakness, those times when Maxy is resting or being double teamed. 

It may be at the expense of OMac if Maxy continues to roll or play back, or require tall forwards play stints on the wing providing hit up targets, etc... 

BTW I know your view, and am actually more interest in exploring how it might or could work than playing “I’m right ... you’re wrong” (yawn) chest thumping game...  

Edited January 25, 20196 yr by PaulRB

Looking at the sides, about 30 players could make legitimate claims to getting a game in round 1.

I would like to see us trial Joel Smith on a wing in the preseason given his mix of speed and endurance.

I prefer Fritsch in defence given his intercept marking and distribution. He could be an elite defender.

And I would like to see Hunt tried as a forward. He is not as skillful as Spargo or Garlett but I think he could be a better pressure player and stronger overhead. 

It will be also interesting if Kolodjashnij can get a spot on the wing or in defence.

29 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Looking at the sides, about 30 players could make legitimate claims to getting a game in round 1.

I would like to see us trial Joel Smith on a wing in the preseason given his mix of speed and endurance.

I prefer Fritsch in defence given his intercept marking and distribution. He could be an elite defender.

And I would like to see Hunt tried as a forward. He is not as skillful as Spargo or Garlett but I think he could be a better pressure player and stronger overhead. 

It will be also interesting if Kolodjashnij can get a spot on the wing or in defence.

I don't think he uses the ball well enough 'Fat'...

We now have a mix of players who can play this position & are good users/decision makers.

I would rather them play into form/team in preseason.

I think we are past trialling players in positions as far as best 22 go.

Casey will be used to further develop depth.

18 minutes ago, rjay said:

I don't think he uses the ball well enough 'Fat'...

We now have a mix of players who can play this position & are good users/decision makers.

I would rather them play into form/team in preseason.

I think we are past trialling players in positions as far as best 22 go.

Casey will be used to further develop depth.

I think we have very few natural wingmen on our list and none that have proven to be A-grade AFL players. Stretch and Baker are really the only two on our list that I can think of. Players like Salem, Vandenberg, Fritsch, KK, Jones and Hunt can all play the wing role, but I think they are better suited to other positions.

Smith's kicking is a weakness, but otherwise he has the athletic traits needed for the role IMO (i.e. speed, endurance, size). In this respect he is a bit similar to Vandenberg.

 Need to get through preseason with a fit squad. A few injuries could prove costly. 

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

i don't have any - walk me through it.

Most people don't, which is why it should be called 'rare sense'.  Although I appreciate a self-effacing comment when I see one.

Melbourne, like Richmond (and unlike West Coast), play a high pressure and chaotic territory game.  But even then, the better teams, despite their differing styles, are in the positive when it comes to 'metres gained differential'. 

Fast ball movement, high pressure, out-number at every contest possible, play on quickly, and get the ball into the F50 is our 'one wood'.  We had the most inside 50s in 2018 and the best inside 50 differential, as well as being no.1 in countless other stats.  And if we can't mark in the F50 we at least want to bring it to ground.  It's no accident we're the highest scoring team in the AFL by 25 goals.

Here is a stat I found very interesting and it confirms that our manic game-style has its advantages:

Being no.1 in 'metres gained differential' obviously was a large reason we were no.2 in 'points gained differential', as you can see above.

To retain the ball in the F50 and to out-number at every contest isn't helped by having a second lumbering ruckman.  West Coast play a different game-style (precise kicking / retain control of the footy) to us that is more conducive to a second ruck.  And it's also worth noting that Vardy is a very mobile and athletic big man with decent pace.  He's as much a forward ruck as a ruckman, so a different type of ruck to Preuss.

It's also worth noting that turnovers are the no.1 scoring source for scoring shots in the AFL.  Generally speaking, mid-size players force more turnovers that 206cm giants.

Gawn, Tom McDonald, and Weideman for me is enough talls to provide an aerial forward threat.  Gawn won't be needed to fill the hole down back this year, so when he does need a rest Weideman can pinch hit in the ruck and Gawn can prowl the F50.  And occasionally McDonald might get a 5 minute ruck burst. 

They'll most definitely try the Gawn/Preuss combo and if it works great.  But for our game-style and strengths (outlined above) I'm not keen on it.  We need to build on what works, not strip it back.  There's plenty of room for improvement, which will come from hopefully Viney playing more than 7 games in the H&A, Weideman progressing, May/Lever controlling D50, Kolodjashnij and Fritsch up around the wings, for once a fit vandenBerg, and the natural improvement from over half the best 22 due to their age. 

I know we'll tweak our game-style.  It doesn't need reinventing, just some improvement.  The foundations are very strong.  But I'm not convinced a second 206cm ruck helps our game-plan.  For me it hinders it.  You occasionally have to give something up to take a step forward, but playing Preuss gives up too much in my mind and I don't see the benefits of him playing with Gawn as any great panacea to where we're deficient. 

11 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I think we have very few natural wingmen on our list and none that have proven to be A-grade AFL players. Stretch and Baker are really the only two on our list that I can think of. Players like Salem, Vandenberg, Fritsch, KK, Jones and Hunt can all play the wing role, but I think they are better suited to other positions.

Smith's kicking is a weakness, but otherwise he has the athletic traits needed for the role IMO (i.e. speed, endurance, size). In this respect he is a bit similar to Vandenberg.

A wingmen has to be able to deliver inside F50 with precision.  Smith on a wing is a diabolical suggestion.  If you read training reports you'll see that Kolodjashnij has been playing this role well.  He's the prototype wingmen and I suspect it's why we got him to the club.

9 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I think we have very few natural wingmen on our list and none that have proven to be A-grade AFL players. Stretch and Baker are really the only two on our list that I can think of. Players like Salem, Vandenberg, Fritsch, KK, Jones and Hunt can all play the wing role, but I think they are better suited to other positions.

Smith's kicking is a weakness, but otherwise he has the athletic traits needed for the role IMO (i.e. speed, endurance, size). In this respect he is a bit similar to Vandenberg.

I think we will find KK & Fritsch taking up the wing positions with Salem and even Hibberd rotating with them.

Billie would be next in line.

I would rather they get as much development time in preseason than wasting it on an outside chance like Smith.

Every year this same thread and I never know if its predictions, desires, a horses-for-courses best 22 as to round one, or just a list of each poster's favourite players squeezed into a team

Here’s my hoped-for round one team, based on the sole criteria of being the players I most want to watch play and succeed put together into a single list.

Hibberd           May                 Jetta

Salem               Lever               Frost

Kolodjash        Viney               Hunt

Oliver              Gawn               Brayshaw

Petracca           TMac               Fritsch

Garlett              Weid                Melksham

Harmes        ANB        Jones       Pruess

Emerg (others I’m looking forward to seeing play this year) Bedford, Baker, Stretch, Sparrow

Some of the players not in this team who played finals or more than 10 games last year and can provide back-up:

Lewis   AVB    Omac   Spargo   Hannan   J. Smith 

Notes: the above interchange is a pretty serious midfield rotational back-up. Also, I said it last year and I'll say it again, Goody will again double-down on our game-plan. That means even more of: a lot of frustrating quick forward thrusts, manic midfield ball-movement, and an exposed, leaky defence. The team above has the capacity to reduce leakage by two-to-three goals per game (which is top spot/premiership significant) while the half-backs and mids are all tough and instinctive with a a heap of dynamic weapons. This will be the most exciting team the MFC ever assembled.

 

Find it difficult to fathom why some have Charlie Spargo out of the side altogether. Emergency? Hardly. If he maintains his pre-season training form and based on what he showed in his debut season last year I'd say he's a certainty for Round 1. He may be overtaken by one of the newbies down the track but not as it stands right now. He'll be fitter, stronger and hungrier with just the right dose of mongrel at the fall of the ball.

4 minutes ago, maximum bob said:

Find it difficult to fathom why some have Charlie Spargo out of the side altogether. Emergency? Hardly. If he maintains his pre-season training form and based on what he showed in his debut season last year I'd say he's a certainty for Round 1. He may be overtaken by one of the newbies down the track but not as it stands right now. He'll be fitter, stronger and hungrier with just the right dose of mongrel at the fall of the ball.

I think he will be in the 22 by rnd 1 and Hannan will be the unlucky one to miss out due to lack of conditioning.

54 minutes ago, maximum bob said:

Find it difficult to fathom why some have Charlie Spargo out of the side altogether. Emergency? Hardly. If he maintains his pre-season training form and based on what he showed in his debut season last year I'd say he's a certainty for Round 1. He may be overtaken by one of the newbies down the track but not as it stands right now. He'll be fitter, stronger and hungrier with just the right dose of mongrel at the fall of the ball.

Because he’s the less exciting option than others.

I’d personally rather Garlett for his potential 3-4 goal haul on any given week over Spargo’s manic defensive pressure. However I acknowledge that Spargo is probably ahead in the pecking order.

It must be said that Spargo was outstanding in a final vs Hawthorn which is outstanding for an 18 year old kid.

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

To retain the ball in the F50 and to out-number at every contest isn't helped by having a second lumbering ruckman.  West Coast play a different game-style (precise kicking / retain control of the footy) to us that is more conducive to a second ruck.  And it's also worth noting that Vardy is a very mobile and athletic big man with decent pace.  He's as much a forward ruck as a ruckman, so a different type of ruck to Preuss.

It's also worth noting that turnovers are the no.1 scoring source for scoring shots in the AFL.  Generally speaking, mid-size players force more turnovers that 206cm giants.

Gawn, Tom McDonald, and Weideman for me is enough talls to provide an aerial forward threat.  Gawn won't be needed to fill the hole down back this year, so when he does need a rest Weideman can pinch hit in the ruck and Gawn can prowl the F50.  And occasionally McDonald might get a 5 minute ruck burst.

Everything you say is logical and couldn't agree more re forward 50 pressure and turnovers being key.  But playing 2 rucks does not necessarily mean you have 3 big guys in the forward 50, so it will be about rotations.  Last year, rotations saw Tmac off for 14% of game time, Gawn for 15%, Weids for 20% (Hogan was off only 11%).  They vary game to game but up to 40-50% of game time we had a big guy on the bench.  We can't afford Max to ruck for 85% game time again as he was cooked in September.  That 40-50% of game time last year where we were down one big man, we would have Preuss on.  Maybe add another 10-20% of game time for Preuss and that is when we have 3 big guys in the forward 50 and we use that to create a match up headache.  If we get a really good mismatch, the coaches leave it longer to really take advantage.    If it is done right I expect Max to impact a few games in the forward 50 ala Cox on Queens Birthday against us and in the prelim.

The thing you lose by this is an average of 1-2% of extra time on ground for the other 18 players, and maybe Max spending less time on the ball.  So it will only work if Preuss is really good when on the ground.  I suspect we will be able to review this after round 1 because Preuss will play that game.  If Preuss is really good in the ruck he'll play most games, and Ryder and Lycett is a good first up test.

1 hour ago, maximum bob said:

Find it difficult to fathom why some have Charlie Spargo out of the side altogether. Emergency? Hardly. If he maintains his pre-season training form and based on what he showed in his debut season last year I'd say he's a certainty for Round 1. He may be overtaken by one of the newbies down the track but not as it stands right now. He'll be fitter, stronger and hungrier with just the right dose of mongrel at the fall of the ball.

My opinion only, but I don't have him in our top 25. I don't see his weapons. Not fast, not strong, small and not a great kick. Tries super hard, can get a goal or two,  but I think will struggle.

My team from who will currently most likely be available

Vs Port Adelaide at the G on a satdy afternoon

 

Jetta (gray) May (Dixon) Hibberd

Fritsch   OMac   salem

KK   Viney   Brayshaw

Petracca  TMac  Melksham 

Garlett  Weed  AVB

Gawn  Harmes  Oliver

 

Jones Preuss ANB Lewis

Emerg- Hunt Lever Frost Hannan Spargo Stretch Hannan Smith 

On 1/24/2019 at 5:24 PM, binman said:

Happy to take bets on omac playing ahead of frost. 

For fun sat down to watch replay of the hawks v dees semi.

I urge anyone who seriously thinks Frost might be picked ahead of Omac to watch the first 60 seconds of this game.

Frost makes two bad errors where he miss reads the flight of the ball and gets (in spite of his strength)  pushed under the ball. The second of these errors cost us a goal.  

In that same period Omac has three involvements: a straight line bump, a clean take and kick under pressure and a receive and effective kick. 

Yes it is an isolated example but none the less it reflects the gap between the players. 

Edited January 25, 20196 yr by binman

1 hour ago, binman said:

For fun sat down to watch replay of the hawks v dees semi.

I urge anyone who seriously thinks Frost might be picked ahead of Omac to watch the first 60 seconds of this game.

Frost makes two bad errors where he miss reads the flight of the ball and gets (in spite of his strength)  pushed under the ball. The second of these errors cost us a goal.  

In that same period Omac has three involvements: a straight line bump, a clean take and kick under pressure and a receive and effective kick. 

Yes it is an isolated example but none the less it reflects the gap between the players. 

The Hawks game wasn't one of his better games but I think he had a better second half of the year than O.Mac. He kept Hawkins in check while O.Mac couldn't

1 hour ago, binman said:

For fun sat down to watch replay of the hawks v dees semi.

I urge anyone who seriously thinks Frost might be picked ahead of Omac to watch the first 60 seconds of this game.

Frost makes two bad errors where he miss reads the flight of the ball and gets (in spite of his strength)  pushed under the ball. The second of these errors cost us a goal.  

In that same period Omac has three involvements: a straight line bump, a clean take and kick under pressure and a receive and effective kick. 

Yes it is an isolated example but none the less it reflects the gap between the players. 

OMac if fit will be picked ahead of Frost every time. He is a better player and I find it strange that many on here prefer Frost