Farewell Jesse Hogan

[Jaded No More 67,923]

3 things:

1. You don't trade key position talent - who was the last club to voluntarily trade a proven key forward?

2.  No decent forward wants to go to Freo. Their game plan sucks. Not even Buddy would kick goals for them. 

3. Unless somebody has solid evidence that Hogan is not happy or wants to head back to WA, can we please stop discussing trading him, as this will not happen. 

[Engorged Onion 10,147]

16 minutes ago, Jaded said:

3 things:

1. You don't trade key position talent - who was the last club to voluntarily trade a proven key forward?

2.  No decent forward wants to go to Freo. Their game plan sucks. Not even Buddy would kick goals for them. 

3. Unless somebody has solid evidence that Hogan is not happy or wants to head back to WA, can we please stop discussing trading him, as this will not happen. 

Why @Jaded, it is a forum after all.

You don't have to open the thread.

[Jaded No More 67,923]

Just now, Danelska said:

Why @Jaded, it is a forum after all.

You don't have to open the thread.

Just seems like a total waste of energy to discuss something that isn't going to happen.

Please yourself I suppose.

[Axis of Bob 11,240]

3 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Nice over reaction. Suits your stance. Real ironic? Surely you actually mean 'really ironic'. You seem to infer an unreal ironic. Now that's ironic.  

I don't think you understand the meaning of irony. Neither did Alanis. 

'Ironic' was the name of the song. It was in the mid 90s, so possibly the reference was a bit too contemporary.

[Roost It 1,434]

2 hours ago, Dr.D said:

because everyone who loves hogan were the same people crying to the club when we shipped him out for pick 31. they have no idea about football.  The only reason i'd want to keep hogan is if they turned him into a defender because you can't sook and whinge in the d50

I’ve stayed away from this thread until just now. I’m not coming back after reading the above post. He was in AA form and now.........oh ckuf it, what’s the point 

[Engorged Onion 10,147]

Just now, Jaded said:

Just seems like a total waste of energy to discuss something that isn't going to happen.

Please yourself I suppose.

Totally pleased... I come here for the debate, and opinions, anything is fair go as long as it isn't bigoted.

Mind, it feels for the some that the emotional cost to not potentially have Hogan is too much, that they can't even hear a 'pub type conversation' that is happening on an internet forum.

 

I like you're first point though, perhaps you could post that...and then exit the thread? Because as you say, it's a total waste of energy discussing Hogan leaving/trading options etc, unlike the meta debate about whether Hogan role in the team is worthy of a trade is appropriate or not... as that is far more worthy of energy. 

[rjay 24,630]

5 hours ago, Dr.D said:

Kennedy doesn't stop chasing and harrasing and applies relentless pressure inside 50m. There's no stats for chasing, There's no stats for implied pressure.

I think there are actually, but I will defer to the ones on here that are into the champion data stuff.

2 hours ago, Dr.D said:

because everyone who loves hogan were the same people crying to the club when we shipped him out for pick 31.

You like making big statements old son, don't you?

2 hours ago, Dr.D said:

if they turned him into a defender because you can't sook and whinge in the d50

AA Rance comes to mind, seems to like to sook and whinge quite a bit.

[Moonshadow 17,560]

Jesse won't be pleased the hands in the back rule will be discontinued next year. He'll have little to hissy fit about.

 

 

... ducks head ?

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,861]

The question isn't whether Jesse is a good player. The question is do we play better without him and IF he wanted to go home whether we could maximise it to fulfill some of our key deficiencies in outside speed both this year via a high position in the draft as well next year loading up in a trade or FA with the cash saved. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by big_red_fire_engine

[Gator 17,261]

18 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

The question isn't whether Jesse is a good player. The question is do we play better without him and IF he wanted to go home whether we could maximise it to fulfill some of our key deficiencies in outside speed both this year via a high position in the draft as well next year loading up in a trade or FA with the cash saved. 

A quality coaching group can construct a plan to include a quality young key position player who's only going to get better.

The concept that he makes us worse is a nonsense.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,861]

5 minutes ago, ProDee said:

A quality coaching group can construct a plan to include a quality young key position player who's only going to get better.

The concept that he makes us worse is a nonsense.

Do you think we played better with or without him this year? What role would you train him for next year over preseason? Where you see his improvement coming from?

I would not be pushing him out but for the amount we have invested in him cap wise I would want a clear plan or be maximising any want he has to go home if it's there. 

[Gator 17,261]

19 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Do you think we played better with or without him this year? What role would you train him for next year over preseason? Where you see his improvement coming from?

I would not be pushing him out but for the amount we have invested in him cap wise I would want a clear plan or be maximising any want he has to go home if it's there. 

I'll let the coaches worry how to best structure up, but logically it makes no sense to me that a young key forward, who is about to come in to his peak playing years, doesn't make us better.

Zero sense at all.

[Axis of Bob 11,240]

He's better in our structure.

Weideman had a great final and several good games. But Hogan had several better games than even Weed's career best game. We kick higher scores with Hogan in the team. McDonald gets a lesser opponent when Hogan plays. 

I genuinely don't know what people don't see in him. He's one of the best key forwards in the league, he's a kid still and he's ours. Maybe he's just a bit too 'meat and potatoes' for some fans, rather than doing the spectacular. 

[KingDingAling 3,740]

2 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

The question isn't whether Jesse is a good player. The question is do we play better without him and IF he wanted to go home whether we could maximise it to fulfill some of our key deficiencies in outside speed both this year via a high position in the draft as well next year loading up in a trade or FA with the cash saved. 

I think that is a pretty reasonable post. If Hogan did want to leave its not a bad thing. I suspect he doesn't and then we look towards acquiring some outside speed by other means. The good part of that is that somewhere - either on an AFL list or state list - there is that player we need. It is just a matter of identifying them (and hopefully getting them on the cheap).

[corowa 216]

4 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

He's better in our structure.

Weideman had a great final and several good games. But Hogan had several better games than even Weed's career best game. We kick higher scores with Hogan in the team. McDonald gets a lesser opponent when Hogan plays. 

I genuinely don't know what people don't see in him. He's one of the best key forwards in the league, he's a kid still and he's ours. Maybe he's just a bit too 'meat and potatoes' for some fans, rather than doing the spectacular. 

I agree with you 100%. Why would you trade a 'good', young, big man? What for? Draft picks??

When you have a talent like Hogan you don't discard him for one or even two kids with 'high' potential. Do you remember Cale Morton and Jimmy Toumpas? Early picks, great potential, but failed to excite.

Perhaps we could throw in Max Gawn and get another two 'may bes' with potential. Better still, add Oliver and Viney. We could end up with 10 picks in the top 20. And how many would be any good? Going on our history, not many!

The grass might be greener, but I'd stick with what we've got - youth, skill, passion, great recent improvement and lots more to come next year.

 

[Axis of Bob 11,240]

Just now, big_red_fire_engine said:

Do you think we played better with or without him this year? What role would you train him for next year over preseason? Where you see his improvement coming from?

I would not be pushing him out but for the amount we have invested in him cap wise I would want a clear plan or be maximising any want he has to go home if it's there. 

We got on a role late, but that was not due to not having Hogan. I think we're looking at the wrong thing. We were already playing well.

Hogan held is together at the start of the year, then TMac came in and we dominated. It was only a poor 3 weeks (where Hogan was down on form) during the middle of the year (Coll, PA, StK) that caused damage. Then we'd won 4 of 5 (only Gee after the siren) when Hogan got injured early in the Sydney game.

I think the "the team is better without Hogan" line is rubbish. 

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,217]

On 9/23/2018 at 12:57 PM, Redleg said:

Jesse Hogan

Born:12-Feb-1995 (Debut:20y 51d Last:23y 181d)

Height:195 cm Weight:100 kg

 

Year	Team	#	GM	W-D-L	KI	MK	HB	DI	GL	BH	HO	TK	RB	IF	CL	CG	FF	FA	BR	CP	UP	CM	MI	1%	BO	GA
Totals			71	32-0-39	685	459	393	1078	152	81	13	110	17	174	20	132	81	37	14	458	629	124	183	87	5	44
Averages			17.75	45.07%	9.65	6.46	5.54	15.18	2.14	1.14	0.18	1.55	0.24	2.45	0.28	1.86	1.14	0.52	0.20	6.45	8.86	1.75	2.58	1.23	0.07	0.62
2015	Melbourne	1	20	6-0-14	178	134	83	261	44	19		25	1	45	5	20	17	6	5	118	139	47	52	22	1	12
2016	Melbourne	1	21	9-0-12	206	149	104	310	41	33	4	29	8	47	1	39	19	10	6	123	189	43	63	24	3	12
2017	Melbourne	1	10	5-0-5	91	51	51	142	20	6		15	2	26	3	19	9	5	3	55	87	10	21	9	1	6
2018	Melbourne	1	20	12-0-8	210	125	155	365	47	23	9	41	6	56	11	54	36	16		162	214	24	47	32		14

 

 

Josh Kennedy

Born:25-Aug-1987 (Debut:18y 255d Last:31y 28d)

Height:196 cm Weight:103 kg

 

• 
   

Year	Team	#	GM	W-D-L	KI	MK	HB	DI	GL	BH	HO	TK	RB	IF	CL	CG	FF	FA	BR	CP	UP	CM	MI	1%	BO	GA
Totals			220	112-2-106	1887	1296	651	2538	559	306	52	519	15	486	38	467	254	227	69	1190	1370	323	591	259	15	119
Averages			16.92	51.36%	8.58	5.89	2.96	11.54	2.54	1.39	0.24	2.36	0.07	2.21	0.17	2.12	1.15	1.03	0.33	5.41	6.23	1.47	2.69	1.18	0.07	0.54
2006	Carlton	5	9	1-1-7	36	32	16	52	5	4	1	11		15	1	17	7	8		25	30	5	8	3		1
2007	Carlton	5	13	2-0-11	57	50	40	97	6	5	40	27	4	16	6	19	10	9		40	55	7	6	15	1
2008	West Coast	17	7	1-0-6	55	46	34	89	7	4	1	7		19	2	12	9	5		34	55	9	6	7		4
2009	West Coast	17	16	6-0-10	150	110	52	202	31	17	2	28	2	40	4	35	16	13		76	128	23	32	23	1	9
2010	West Coast	17	22	4-0-18	199	130	61	260	41	19	1	60	1	69	3	58	25	27	3	108	149	28	34	30	3	15
2011	West Coast	17	23	16-0-7	208	144	62	270	59	38		70		69	4	55	25	32	4	150	125	51	65	42	3	15
2012	West Coast	17	9	7-0-2	58	43	16	74	18	14		13		13	1	16	7	11	3	39	35	14	24	7	1	1
2013	West Coast	17	21	8-0-13	210	143	63	273	60	23	1	69	2	60	1	44	26	21	6	137	137	34	62	16	1	17
2014	West Coast	17	20	10-0-10	175	114	51	226	61	33		62	1	33	6	46	23	26	11	90	131	17	56	19	1	10
2015	West Coast	17	25	18-1-6	241	168	92	333	80	55		52	1	60	5	44	28	20	12	154	184	39	101	28	3	18
2016	West Coast	17	23	16-0-7	229	148	71	300	82	37	1	69	3	45	4	52	34	26	17	151	157	42	87	30	1	15
2017	West Coast	17	19	11-0-8	166	111	59	225	69	39	5	27		27		32	24	18	13	112	111	34	72	28		10
2018	West Coast	17	13	12-0-1	103	57	34	137	40	18		24	1	20	1	37	20	11		74	73	20	38	11		4

 

Jesse Hogan 152 goals in his first 4 years in 71 games.

Josh Kennedy 90 goals in his first 5 years in the AFL in 67 games. 

Jesse averaged 50% more disposals in those games as well.

I think you are the one that needs to feel really embarrassed. Also I was rubbishing the get rid of Hogan thread. I never said he would have made a difference yesterday, so don't change the meaning of my post.

I said he could be our Josh Kennedy and people want to get rid of him. He is on better track than Josh was at the same stage.

For arguments sake let’s say we are only going to play two key forwards next year. TMac is clearly our no.1 fwd option so let’s compare Hogan to the Weed instead. It’s hard to compare numbers (ie goals scores) when Hogan has played 71 games to the Weed’s 20 so let’s look at key criteria for key forwards. 

- Contested marking in a 1 on 1 situation

- Contested pack marking

- Set shots on goal 

- Ability to perform in big games

- Aerobic capacity 

- Defesive pressure

I would have Hogan ahead of the the Weed in 2 of those categories, contested marking 1 on 1 and aerobic capacity. In another year or two the Weed will have developed his body more and be able to hold his own more. How goid will the Weed be with another 50 games behind him.

With regards to shots on goal I didn’t bother looking at goals - behinds ratio because unless Hogan is near directly in front he looks to pass it off. I understand we have a team rule that at times players always look to pass to someone in a better position. Key forwards at crucial times in games need to be able to go back and earn their money. His set shot routine needs work and he’s joined the list of players who snap the ball around their body when 15 metres out on a slight angle. This was started by Stevie J but continued by players who lack confidence. Rd 23 v GWS Weed slotted one straight through the middle from deep in the pocket. And as I and others have stated many times for all of the goals people keep telling us he’s kicked they fail to mention how he continues to go missing in big games, it’s no longer a one off but a trend. 

As for the recent Goodwin statement that Jesse loves Melbourne and is a required player, that comes with the “but we’re only going to offer him this much because”

- Rd 22 through to the semi we played better without him. Same as last year against Adelaide and the Eagles, there is definitely something to this. 

- He still has areas of his game he needs to work

- He no longer has us over a barrel with Weiderman coming along nicely.

- With a lot of our players finding form we have to fit them all in

Calls for him to play down back are a cop out, we still need quality mids, use the picks to booster that area.

Although we got shown up by West Coast, our 4 weeks prior to that was good enough to beat most other teams.

[Ted Lasso 18,801]

He’s apparently got a ridiculous offer from the dockers in front of him but seriously why would anyone go near that mob? 

If he did request a trade (which he won’t I don’t believe) id be asking for pick 6 and the pick they get For Neale likely 4

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,217]

8 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

We got on a role late, but that was not due to not having Hogan. I think we're looking at the wrong thing. We were already playing well.

Hogan held is together at the start of the year, then TMac came in and we dominated. It was only a poor 3 weeks (where Hogan was down on form) during the middle of the year (Coll, PA, StK) that caused damage. Then we'd won 4 of 5 (only Gee after the siren) when Hogan got injured early in the Sydney game.

I think the "the team is better without Hogan" line is rubbish. 

What’s this “down on form” garbage, why can’t people say he was beaten on the day by a better opponent or team structure”?

Its like “He was in AA form at the half way point of the year” or “he’s a gun” then a few games later “he’s still developing” or “he’s about to peak”, which one is it?

The in comment now is “Weed’s only really had the one big game”, we’ll at least he has stood up in big game for us.

 

[SFebes 4,860]

The other question also is, when Jesse's contract is up, what is he going to ask for? $1.2-$1.5m? That's another factor at play here that hasn't been mentioned much. It could be a value for money thing, risk v reward.

[Tony Tea 2,806]

The Australian.

"A bombshell is about to hit the lead-up to the AFL trade period with star Melbourne forward Jesse Hogan set to play with Fremantle next year if the Dockers are successful in their multimillion-dollar bid to lure the West Australian home."

[Engorged Onion 10,147]

Well @Tony Tea  it still sounds as though it’s about the potential for something to happen rather than it is happening.

fWIW - I’m almost happy for him to go to merely prove the point to some posters that it’s ok to discuss hypotheticals, as sometimes those hypotheticals occur.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

Greg Denham is reporting that he is freo bound and we get May as part of the deal. I would not be happy with simply receiving May. We need outside mids with speed and if we can’t fulfill that deficiency then we won’t go deeper next year. I realise we have problems down back too, but Hogan is worth more than that.

 

i don’t won’t him to leave tbh. Something is brewing tho. 

[Superunknown 4,089]

24 minutes ago, Tony Tea said:

The Australian.

"A bombshell is about to hit the lead-up to the AFL trade period with star Melbourne forward Jesse Hogan set to play with Fremantle next year if the Dockers are successful in their multimillion-dollar bid to lure the West Australian home."

Can you post the article-proper please? It's paywalled.

[whatwhat say what 22,247]

denham seems to report EVERY YEAR that hogan is leaving

you don't need to read it @Superunknown

it's just all speculation with lots of ifs, maybes, and perhaps

no actual quotes other than jesse saying 'i'm happy at the dees' from when he signed in october, 2016

Edited September 24, 2018 by whatwhatsaywhat