POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 21

[jackaub 1,402]

8 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Another disgraceful loss where we should have smashed the opposition. Clearly scoring shots are one major issue but the dumb football we continue to play under pressure is why we can't beat good strong sides.

The Swans are a very well drilled side but they were two rotations down and we let them control the uncontested possession count unbelievably. What TF were our coaching staff doing? Unfarking forgivable. We let them control the tempo of the game and they were very composed with the ball in hand. We were the opposite.

Memo to Goodwin: starting a loose player in the backline when we are the number 1 clearance side is dumb, dumb, dumb. How many times did we win a clearance and bomb it to Aliir?We continually bombed the ball into our outnumbered forward line and let Aliir Aliir contest the high ball and the Swans runners sweep the ball away. Our forward pressure was non-existent as was the pressure that our mids applied to theirs once they got the ball. In the last quarter when the game was on the line Heeney was largely unmanned and ran riot.

Our game plan all year has been simple. Get it quickly into the forward line and try to hold it in there. Well the Swans have a good defence and toyed with us. And when they swept the ball around the flanks where were our small forwards and mids? Nowhere. I am done with Garlett. Give me Bugg any day over him. At least he will run all day and put physical pressure on. His kicking for goal is virtually no different so why not? ANB had a shocker as did Hunt. Hogan played one of his worst games.

I am very critical of our defence but our talls actually worked reasonably well. OMac did some good things, Frosty did pretty well and Jetta was OK.

The apologists will say 'oh, but if we had have kicked straight we would have won.' Seriously. It's pathetic.

Its not like were don't know how the Swans play. Previous four games against them they have scored 86, 85, 80 and 69. Our top score was 50pts. 50 points!

Make no mistake this was a massive coaching failure. We needed to control the ball and make the Swans chase. We couldn't do it. They didn't even try to do it. Our leaders were hopeless. 7 goals in a row!! 6 each in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Shiite football.

I am a Jones fan but he played one of his worst possible games for the club. Lewis missed at least 4 balls coming in that he either misjudged or didn't want to contest.

Finally the umpiring was infuriating. You name it ,they stuffed up nearly every category. They didn't make Swans players move back off the mark, the Swans were allowed to dive in our backs, chopping the arms, holding the ball. And apparently they are allowed to kick the ball 8 metres and its a mark.

They [censored] up most of them. Wow. I am happy to contribute to a fund where Nicholls taken to court for cheating.

Make your September plans because we are going nowhere.

Some well thought out points Junior in particular the Memo to Goodwin

This guy doesnt seem to learn that you design your game plan around your players not the other way round. Also doesnt learn from  one game to the next. An  apparently stubborn  indivigual  who keeps repeating his mistakes.

[old55 23,699]

4 minutes ago, Jaded said:

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but they had 2 players down for basically the entire match, yet spread more effectively for the entire game. They did not seem slow, fatigued, lacking run. We looked lacklustre and scared, and it didn't help that we played an out of form Hunt and an old and slow Pederson. 

Selections and match ups continue to mind boggle. Vanders on Alir Alir? Nobody on Hennebry at any stoppage? Fritsch down back in the last, when we were trying to attack the contest, while Heeney beautifully mopped up every kick inside 50? 
 

As someone said above, we are wasting golden chances in seasons where there are no outstanding unbeatable contenders. A wide open season, where we could have finished 2nd on the ladder, looks to be another season where we may not make finals again. 

Sydney looked pretty cooked to me in the last - but we couldn't take our massive oppotunities.

Yes I think there has been selection and role errors but Goodwin is generally adventurous and there have been some massive pay-offs too in his tenure: TMac forward, recognising Melksham's talent and moving him forward, Brayshaw and Harmes midfield development, generally creative use of Fritsch.

I'm a big Goodwin fan and it seems I'm more patient than most.  He's 42 games in at 24-18.  

[layzie 34,011]

10 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Another disgraceful loss where we should have smashed the opposition. Clearly scoring shots are one major issue but the dumb football we continue to play under pressure is why we can't beat good strong sides.

The Swans are a very well drilled side but they were two rotations down and we let them control the uncontested possession count unbelievably. What TF were our coaching staff doing? Unfarking forgivable. We let them control the tempo of the game and they were very composed with the ball in hand. We were the opposite.

Memo to Goodwin: starting a loose player in the backline when we are the number 1 clearance side is dumb, dumb, dumb. How many times did we win a clearance and bomb it to Aliir?We continually bombed the ball into our outnumbered forward line and let Aliir Aliir contest the high ball and the Swans runners sweep the ball away. Our forward pressure was non-existent as was the pressure that our mids applied to theirs once they got the ball. In the last quarter when the game was on the line Heeney was largely unmanned and ran riot.

Our game plan all year has been simple. Get it quickly into the forward line and try to hold it in there. Well the Swans have a good defence and toyed with us. And when they swept the ball around the flanks where were our small forwards and mids? Nowhere. I am done with Garlett. Give me Bugg any day over him. At least he will run all day and put physical pressure on. His kicking for goal is virtually no different so why not? ANB had a shocker as did Hunt. Hogan played one of his worst games.

I am very critical of our defence but our talls actually worked reasonably well. OMac did some good things, Frosty did pretty well and Jetta was OK.

The apologists will say 'oh, but if we had have kicked straight we would have won.' Seriously. It's pathetic.

Its not like were don't know how the Swans play. Previous four games against them they have scored 86, 85, 80 and 69. Our top score was 50pts. 50 points!

Make no mistake this was a massive coaching failure. We needed to control the ball and make the Swans chase. We couldn't do it. They didn't even try to do it. Our leaders were hopeless. 7 goals in a row!! 6 each in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Shiite football.

I am a Jones fan but he played one of his worst possible games for the club. Lewis missed at least 4 balls coming in that he either misjudged or didn't want to contest.

Finally the umpiring was infuriating. You name it ,they stuffed up nearly every category. They didn't make Swans players move back off the mark, the Swans were allowed to dive in our backs, chopping the arms, holding the ball. And apparently they are allowed to kick the ball 8 metres and its a mark.

They [censored] up most of them. Wow. I am happy to contribute to a fund where Nicholls taken to court for cheating.

Make your September plans because we are going nowhere.

Spot on there. These are the cold hard facts and people can defend them all they want but this is the reality. We were schooled yesterday, downright schooled. Buddy knocking over Fritsch and no-one around him even flinching, horrible set shots in front of goal and a serious lack of leadership. The Swans looked like a final 8 team, we looked like a team trying to get into the 8. By the look of it we don't belong there.

[Jaded No More 68,974]

2 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

 

I'm a big Goodwin fan and it seems I'm more patient than most.  He's 42 games in at 24-18.  

It seems a lot of people are big fans of Goodwin. I'm on the fence. If we make finals this year I'll be more convinced. 

If given the choice between Goodwin next year or grabbing Clarkson, I know who I'd be throwing buckets of cash at.  There are coaches out there getting max output from inferior lists. Goodwin is not one of those coaches. In fact, I think we have under performed again this year. 

My biggest issue is the lack of learning from game to game. We've had a lot of close matches this year, yet we repeat pretty much the same mistakes in each one. We are bloody lucky Betts missed that easy shot two weeks ago, or we would have lost that game as well.

[Superunknown 4,223]

12 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Sydney looked pretty cooked to me in the last - but we couldn't take our massive oppotunities.

Yes I think there has been selection and role errors but Goodwin is generally adventurous and there have been some massive pay-offs too in his tenure: TMac forward, recognising Melksham's talent and moving him forward, Brayshaw and Harmes midfield development, generally creative use of Fritsch.

I'm a big Goodwin fan and it seems I'm more patient than most.  He's 42 games in at 24-18.  

To be clear - are you saying all those calls - Tmac etc - were Goodwin's? Someone else in the box didn't suggest?

[Superunknown 4,223]

6 minutes ago, Jaded said:

It seems a lot of people are big fans of Goodwin. I'm on the fence. If we make finals this year I'll be more convinced. 

If given the choice between Goodwin next year or grabbing Clarkson, I know who I'd be throwing buckets of cash at.  There are coaches out there getting max output from inferior lists. Goodwin is not one of those coaches. In fact, I think we have under performed again this year. 

My biggest issue is the lack of learning from game to game. We've had a lot of close matches this year, yet we repeat pretty much the same mistakes in each one. We are bloody lucky Betts missed that easy shot two weeks ago, or we would have lost that game as well.

I was thinking about this this morning.

What's your level of confidence for MFC to win a flag if

- Goodwin is coaching? (Mine is close to 0, and that's informed by the last two seasons, more than any feelings about yesterday's game, which I'm mostly circumspect about as I completely expected capitulation.)

- Clarkson is coaching? (Mine would be a lot higher, e.g. 100% in next 5 years).

- Choose your favourite coaching prospect or change to the coaching team (+ Caracella etc etc:

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 hour ago, -Ⓥ- said:

 

- Clarkson is coaching? (Mine would be a lot higher, e.g. 100% in next 5 years).

 

I don't think that's a fair analogy.  Of course we would be playing better with Clarkson in charge, but so would pretty much every side in the comp outside of Richmond.  It's like saying would we be better with a prime Norm Smith in charge.  Clarkson won't coach anyone but Hawthorn, so wondering if we would be playing better with him at the helm is pointless really.

Goodwin has done pretty well so far, even though we can see some clear deficiencies in his gameplan.  However, many current successful coaches (outside of Chris Scott who inherited one of the best lists ever assembled) have taken years to get themselves into premiership contention, Clarkson included.

[Philthy 284]

How Jeff Garlett still gets a game is beyond me. 176 games into his career, one of the most senior players on your list and offers NOTHING defensively. 0 tackles yesterday.

Spargo may not be able to kick over 40m, but at least he puts his head over the ball, tackles and NEVER pulls out of a contest. The exact opposite of Garlett.

If Kent isn't a replacement for Garlett against the Eagles, I'll spew up!

[SFebes 4,884]

10 minutes ago, Philthy said:

How Jeff Garlett still gets a game is beyond me. 176 games into his career, one of the most senior players on your list and offers NOTHING defensively. 0 tackles yesterday.

Spargo may not be able to kick over 40m, but at least he puts his head over the ball, tackles and NEVER pulls out of a contest. The exact opposite of Garlett.

If Kent isn't a replacement for Garlett against the Eagles, I'll spew up!

Interesting you mention Jeffy does nothing defensively, did he not have a game high 18 pressure acts yesterday? I'd have him every day of the week at the moment over Spargo, who cant hold down tackles anyway and gets pushed off the ball too easily. Jeff is a matchwinner, Spargo may be in time.

[Vagg 2,439]

Out of the mouth of babes...

My daughter just sent me a message, telling me of an encounter she had this morning with her 3 yr old daughter, Emmie (my Grand-daughter).  Apparently, in general conversation, my daughter said "I'm happy 'bout that".  To which 3 yr old Emmie promptly replied "But, we're not happy 'bout the football...!!"

[Philthy 284]

2 minutes ago, MSFebey said:

Interesting you mention Jeffy does nothing defensively, did he not have a game high 18 pressure acts yesterday? I'd have him every day of the week at the moment over Spargo, who cant hold down tackles anyway and gets pushed off the ball too easily. Jeff is a matchwinner, Spargo may be in time.

Do the 18 pressure acts include the multiple times he pulled out of contests and his zero tackles for the day? I'm not saying I prefer Spargo over Jeffy,  but at least he puts his body on the line.

After playing 176 games of league football I expect much more from Jeffy.

And it was 16 pressure acts ?

[DeeZee 7,445]

If Spargo and Hunt come out for Melksham and Hibberd then after learning that Jeffry didn’t lay one tackle, I would much prefer Kent.

[jnrmac 20,188]

50 minutes ago, MSFebey said:

Interesting you mention Jeffy does nothing defensively, did he not have a game high 18 pressure acts yesterday? I'd have him every day of the week at the moment over Spargo, who cant hold down tackles anyway and gets pushed off the ball too easily. Jeff is a matchwinner, Spargo may be in time.

Garlett didn't get a kick until half way through the last qtr. He isn't helped by our woeful delivery and outnumbering but it didn't look to me like he provided any pressure on the Swans defence at all.

[Deemania since 56 6,718]

23 hours ago, Maldonboy38 said:

Furious. All my family deserted me and left me stomping around the living room groaning and grimacing at:

Un-pressured turnovers (how many times in a single season am I going to type or say that word? Did some of the Sydney players have Melbourne jumpers on?)

Kicking. Goal kicking. Field kicking. 

2nd to the ball - almost all day. Beaten by unknown lumps in Sydney jumpers who simply got in first. 

Some very poor performances: Pederson, Jeffy, Spargo, Hunt, JKH,.

And if not for Harmes we would have been flogged. 

 

Not enough kicking expertise, thought, vision, creativity and leading to space. Whack it on the boot and get another statistic - that's all. Every player going into the 50m arc with the ball attempts to copy Melscham's low pass style without practice or identifiable targets, other than that, it will be a bomb onto Hogan's head whilst multi-tasked with 2-3 defenders to overcome. 

[Deemania since 56 6,718]

23 hours ago, chook fowler said:

Our forward entries were putrid - thanks Nibbler. Hand fed Alir Alir. Disgraceful considering they were with out Smith and Johnson. Poor decision making. Poor coaching. Mentally weak.

We know how to play, and kick accurately. The problems are the coaching and practices - clearing and running. 

[praha 11,240]

Anyone who thinks we lost because of our kicking for goal is clueless. 

watch the second quarter. watch our defensive awareness (or lack thereof). Watch the latest All Access video on the AFL website.

The club hasn't played finals in 11 years, we continue to buy memberships...watching that [censored] is infuriating. It was round 23 all over again. They were two down on the bench ffs. We are in year 5 of a rebuild. we mark the ball at half back with 90 seconds left, and look for a short pass. How dense can you be? How much of a loser can you be?

To make finals we have to -- in two weeks -- break every stereotype that has clouded the club for 50 years. We haven't done it in 5 decades. How are we going to do it in 2 weeks?

Edited August 13, 2018 by praha

[monoccular 17,574]

21 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Sydney scored 13.9.87. Their season average is 12.9. So they were right around their average, both as to number of scoring shots and total score.

We scored 10.18.78. Our season average is 15.13. So we were right around our average scoring shots, but nowhere near our average score.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that this inaccuracy is, largely, where the game was lost. 

And as I recall, several more of our close losses were associated with periods of dominance with ZERO scoreboard pressure.  Does Goodone acknowledge this?  Does he address this?

21 hours ago, Webber said:

Of course, this we know, but we don’t have the mentality to fix it. Look at our goal/behind ratio for our big games this year. Repeated misses from 20-30 metres with little angle is a product of a fragile competitive psyche. We are THE chokers of the AFL, pure and simple. We CAN’T kick straight because we don’t have what it takes. 

As above, it has cost us a guaranteed top 4 position, and quite possibly finals.

6 hours ago, Cards13 said:

It could be worse, we could have another foot issue with one of our key fwds to go along with the loss..

What good is a healthy foot if one can't use it to kick straight??

Edited August 13, 2018 by monoccular

[Wolfturdo 123]

3 hours ago, Philthy said:

Do the 18 pressure acts include the multiple times he pulled out of contests and his zero tackles for the day? I'm not saying I prefer Spargo over Jeffy,  but at least he puts his body on the line.

After playing 176 games of league football I expect much more from Jeffy.

And it was 16 pressure acts ?

Nah that’s a load of crap. Unless you know something we don’t I suggest you don’t give up your day job. 

[layzie 34,011]

1 hour ago, praha said:

Anyone who thinks we lost because of our kicking for goal is clueless. 

watch the second quarter. watch our defensive awareness (or lack thereof). Watch the latest All Access video on the AFL website.

The club hasn't played finals in 11 years, we continue to buy memberships...watching that [censored] is infuriating. It was round 23 all over again. They were two down on the bench ffs. We are in year 5 of a rebuild. we mark the ball at half back with 90 seconds left, and look for a short pass. How dense can you be? How much of a loser can you be?

To make finals we have to -- in two weeks -- break every stereotype that has clouded the club for 50 years. We haven't done it in 5 decades. How are we going to do it in 2 weeks?

This is one of the more well put statements I’ve seen today. From the outside looking in it doesn’t seem impossible, but from the inside we have a mountain to climb now. If anyone is feeling optimistic about the next few weeks full credit but at the same time may god have mercy on your soul. 

[monoccular 17,574]

2 minutes ago, layzie said:

This is one of the more well put statements I’ve seen today. From the outside looking in it doesn’t seem impossible, but from the inside we have a mountain to climb now. If anyone is feeling optimistic about the next few weeks full credit but at the same time may god have mercy on your soul. 

But Mr Coach said we would win a tough tight game against a  top side ..... sometime.

:-((((

[drysdale demon 4,837]

3 minutes ago, layzie said:

This is one of the more well put statements I’ve seen today. From the outside looking in it doesn’t seem impossible, but from the inside we have a mountain to climb now. If anyone is feeling optimistic about the next few weeks full credit but at the same time may god have mercy on your soul. 

I am optimistic that we can ad I don't need mercy from any god as I don't believe in that tripe.

[Chook 15,022]

6 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

I am optimistic that we can ad I don't need mercy from any god as I don't believe in that tripe.

And yet you believe in the Melbourne Football Club. I think that's irony.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

1 minute ago, Chook said:

And yet you believe in the Melbourne Football Club. I think that's irony.

The melbourne football club actually exists.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,302]

9 hours ago, A F said:

There are similarities between all our loses at the MCG against good opposition this year. They've actually been almost carbon copies.

1) we've dominated games early but have squandered our dominance in front of goal (Hawthorn, Richmond and now Sydney).

2) given up really easy stoppage goals and failed to arrest the momentum by creating or taking chances.

3) we've allowed the opposition (Geelong, Hawthorn, Richmond and Sydney) easy exits out of their back half. All of those teams have followed the same exit strategy. Short chip to an unmarked player in the pocket and then another chip to fifty and handballed out or kicked long to the boundary and reset. That we haven't been able to prevent this or put anything in place to stop this is staggering. You could see it was a problem with our forward zonal set up literally an hour into our Round 1 game. 

So whilst Goody and his coaching staff aren't responsible for our players choking in front of goal, they are culpable for failing to address issues in our system that have been present all year.

I'm not going to highlight any one players performance, but for me, we've not only thrown away a top 4 spot, but we've most likely thrown away our finals chance.

Our gameplan gave us the opportunity to kick a winning score in all games bar maybe the Hawks and Pies and even then you could argue we let our early dominance go wasted against the Hawks. I guess you could argue a better gameplan would see us with even more opportunities but I find it hard to blame the coach when players make skill/execution errors as they did yesterday setting up forward play and kicking set shots

[Chook 15,022]

9 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

The melbourne football club actually exists.

Doesn't mean you should believe in it. Plenty of football followers are smart enough not to.