Backline Setup and Structure

[Deemania since 56 6,718]

19 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

When we halve the centre and hold the ball forward, it looks OK.  When that failed on Sunday, the backline was exposed.  I imagine any Defensive setup would have been horribly exposed in these circumstances.  Biggest failure was tagging Mitchell with Nate.  He was busy, they were all over Clarry, and we had no one to give us drive from the middle.  Second biggest failure was continuing with the biggest failure after about 1/2 time...

Anyway, onto topic:

Oscar has been doing well in 1:1's and his field kicking is much improved.  He is a lock at FB now.

Jetta?  gone missing.  Very unusual, but he is along way from top form.  He also seems SLOW.

Lever - my god, did he stink up the place on Sunday.  He has been poor, but he was an absolute liability on the weekend.  Every kick pumped to the wing (straight to a hawks player), and terrible off the deck (cost us a goal directly by his fumbling).  Needs to go back.

Pig - has been good and OK, so gets some slack.

Lewis - when we are winning, he will look good.  Under pressure, he is a liability.  SLOW.  Old Grandpa needs to go sit on the Casey porch.

Frost - needs to settle, petal.  Needs some guidance on if he is a man on man defender or an attacking half back.  Boy cant be both.

So, the biggest issue with our game style is when it goes over the back.  We have no speed to go back with fast leading forwards or wingers.  This means any over-the back is a goal opportunity to the opposition.  Our game has to be built on 2 way running.  The high press is nice, provided we dont let them kick over it (Billy-Ray's torp to kneeboy).  Also, the hawks had #31 stationed in the centre circle for large period to run like a madman forward if they broke out of our HB line.  This and the Torp leave us vulnerable.

 My suggestion:

Oscar at FB, taking their FF.  Hunt and at least one other foot foot-speed (perhaps J Smith) to run both ways.  Angus to be groomed to replace Lewis.  Lever needs to go back to Casey to work out how he can play in the system, and not get games on his reputation.  His role in such a high press needs to be reviewed/redesigned/refined.

We could potentially try Bugg back to give Jetta a rest.  (casey for form)

Perhaps we could look at using the centre station idea to have a designated speedster to cover back and protect our ahrses if they get over the high press.

If Goodie is serious, he will send a strong message at the selection table.  If you play that Shyte, then you can do it at Casey.

Some good ideas in this modification and is a whole field recommendation. More talls in the fwd line might be an advantage yet at this point, I cannot see Weed doing anything creative if he is moved into this area - he may in time but not yet. That leaves Pedo to play his role as a support to the fwd line to help turn the tide when things get tough. Hunt must surely be required to run himself into the play, now. He is a good 2-way runner. Lever may just turn the corner but a week of reflection with Casey may do him some good to figure out his role in the back half. We have many midfielders that have had the ball kicked over them by the opposition/s that we have played - particularly in their attack - and unless we re-focus and achieve 2-way running, it will continue to occur. Just thoughts .

[Clintosaurus 7,867]

43 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

Only damning in context:

how many times have we had a run on of 4 or more goals?

how many times have other teams suffered such a run on.

how many games did we win or lose when it happened?

it is a worthless piece of cheap journalism without context.

Exactly. I reckon Essendon would have similar or worse stats, but they are media darlings, plus the media have to all pile in on a different team each week. Carlton seem to be escaping such scrutiny. Guess a few 'journos' might have parted with a few $$$ backing us on the weekend.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Clintosaurus

[monoccular 17,575]

21 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Lever benefitted from having a backline that played a less aggressive zone and a more one-on-one style setup which allowed him to play his natural role as an elite intercept player. He was number one in the comp. We're doing him no favours in the way we're playing as a defensive setup. No favours.

I'm similarly confused at why we'd go so hard after Lever and then play him in in a defensive structure that doesn't allow him to do what he does best. But this is nothing to do with him. It's to do with our style of defence.

It's the same with Oscar. After seeing him play so well yesterday, I can see him being a successful full back down the track once he builds his body a bit more. But again, playing him in a zone that needs players to guard space is not a strength of his. His strengths don't lie there. 

We need to rijig asap.

So, do we rejig our defence completely to fit in a new player, or do we rejig the player to fit our defence?

Agree that there appears to be very little cohesion within the unit.

Agree something needs to change - currently it is a sieve. 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I urge you (if you haven’t already) to watch ‘on the couch’ for an insight into what a rabble we are in our defensive setup.

Brown pointed out some really ordinary defensive efforts from both Lewis and Vince which also highlighted their lack of speed which again is problematic in the type of defensive structure Goodwin is trying to implement.

The lack of accountability is pretty disguising from two very senior players.

 

[Redleg 41,462]

19 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I urge you (if you haven’t already) to watch ‘on the couch’ for an insight into what a rabble we are in our defensive setup.

Brown pointed out some really ordinary defensive efforts from both Lewis and Vince which also highlighted their lack of speed which again is problematic in the type of defensive structure Goodwin is trying to implement.

The lack of accountability is pretty disguising from two very senior players.

 

I enjoyed in a perverse way watching On the Couch and Footy Classified as they highlighted things I have been banging on about all summer. 

We lack pace.

We needed another Garlett type of player who can create something from nothing and has pace. 

Our game plan exposed our back half and leads to us leaking like a sieve in games. We must at a minimum have the last player between the opposition and their goal.

We don't take full advantage of Max by playing to him. 

Our skills across the list are poor, especially under pressure. 

We are in trouble if Vince and Lewis are in the back half together as we become even slower. 

Clubs have worked us out and like master coach Clarko did they can then cut us to ribbons. 

When Jaeger with a stuffed knee can run past 4 of our backmen and goal, that highlights problems for the footy world to see. 

We also continue to play poorly skilled players because they can do something else, yet ultimately it  leads to failure in today's possession dominated footy, because in a crunch they let you down.

No name players with pace, skill and effort will continue to cut us apart unless we react quickly. 

As a side note, the Hawks  who are quicker than us get Impey, how did he go Sunday. Personally I am far less impressed with big name players being chased than I am with identifying prospects who have pace,  skill and give effort all game. Forget Lynch, find another 3-4 of those types and we will be a good side with our other talent. 

[beelzebub 23,383]

1 hour ago, monoccular said:

So, do we rejig our defence completely to fit in a new player, or do we rejig the player to fit our defence?

Agree that there appears to be very little cohesion within the unit.

Agree something needs to change - currently it is a sieve. 

Maybe we should have weighted any decisions about importing players upon that absolute. 

Are we building a house with no plans ?

[poita 3,902]

  -  Simon Goodwin - Senior Coach
  -  Brendan McCartney - Player/Coach Performance Manager
  -  Matthew Egan - Head of Player Development  
  -  Ben Mathews - Stoppage and Contest Coach
  -  Troy Chaplin - Backline Coach
  -  Craig Jennings - Game Analyst and Education Coordinator
  -  Jade Rawlings - Casey Demons VFL Coach

I assume all of the above names have something to do with the current state of our defence, but the buck surely stops with Goodwin & Chaplin. 

How hard is it for six defenders to each have an opponent and the spare, if we must have one, to provide cover against the most dangerous forward/s? It seems to me that we have a lot of coaches making things more difficult than necessary, just to justify their positions at the club.

Some of the goals we conceded on Sunday were unbelievable. Players not rushing the ball through the points from a metre out, spoils directed to the goal square, everybody up in contests leaving multiple Hawks on the ground, and so on. None of these are complicated. How can seven responsible coaches not ensure that we have the basics sorted, before they go about reinventing the wheel?
 

[puntkick 325]

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Maybe we should have weighted any decisions about importing players upon that absolute. 

Are we building a house with no plans ?

Most builders think architects are overated ! 

[Demon Spofforth 289]

On 4/16/2018 at 10:20 AM, stevethemanjordan said:

"Our two major problem areas are clearly our inability to convert inside 50's into genuine scoring opportunities and our inability to limit the opposition scoring when they enter their forward 50."

So what your saying is...we're no good at scoring, and we're no good at stopping the other team scoring.

Might be a long season...

[puntkick 325]

1 minute ago, poita said:

  -  Simon Goodwin - Senior Coach
  -  Brendan McCartney - Player/Coach Performance Manager
  -  Matthew Egan - Head of Player Development  
  -  Ben Mathews - Stoppage and Contest Coach
  -  Troy Chaplin - Backline Coach
  -  Craig Jennings - Game Analyst and Education Coordinator
  -  Jade Rawlings - Casey Demons VFL Coach

I assume all of the above names have something to do with the current state of our defence, but the buck surely stops with Goodwin & Chaplin. 

How hard is it for six defenders to each have an opponent and the spare, if we must have one, to provide cover against the most dangerous forward/s? It seems to me that we have a lot of coaches making things more difficult than necessary, just to justify their positions at the club.

Some of the goals we conceded on Sunday were unbelievable. Players not rushing the ball through the points from a metre out, spoils directed to the goal square, everybody up in contests leaving multiple Hawks on the ground, and so on. None of these are complicated. How can seven responsible coaches not ensure that we have the basics sorted, before they go about reinventing the wheel?
 

I'm not too sure the wheel is listening to the cogs !

[Fat Tony 5,270]

Brainstorm: what about trialling Mitch Hannan in defence?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

43 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Brainstorm: what about trialling Mitch Hannan in defence?

I don’t believe it’s a personnel problem.

Except maybe when we have both of of Lewis and Vince in the backline at the same time due to their inability to keep their feet and Keck of pace.

Most of our back six are fine and would benefit greatly from playing a less agressive and more defensive setup imo.

[Lord Travis 10,763]

9 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I urge you (if you haven’t already) to watch ‘on the couch’ for an insight into what a rabble we are in our defensive setup.

Brown pointed out some really ordinary defensive efforts from both Lewis and Vince which also highlighted their lack of speed which again is problematic in the type of defensive structure Goodwin is trying to implement.

The lack of accountability is pretty disguising from two very senior players.

 

I'm pretty sure I know exactly what they'll show (Lever and Vince over-running ground balls, Vince not kicking ball away a metre out from goal which cost a goal etc.), but where can I watch this online? I don't have Foxtel.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Lord Travis

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

14 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

I'm pretty sure I know exactly what they'll show (Lever and Vince over-running ground balls, Vince not kicking ball away a metre out from goal which cost a goal etc.), but where can I watch this online? I don't have Foxtel.

Usually there’s someone who posts it on YouTube a few days later? 

Should be up tomorrow, I’ll share the link if I find it.

[Lord Travis 10,763]

Yeah I did a youtube search but only found older episodes. I'll wait a few days and see if it pops up then. Thanks anyway!

It's a shame Hunt's been out of form. His pace and running power both ways is exactly what we're missing at the moment. Here's hoping he did enough a Casey on the weekend to earn a call up. 

[BAMF 4,386]

 

24 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

I'm pretty sure I know exactly what they'll show (Lever and Vince over-running ground balls, Vince not kicking ball away a metre out from goal which cost a goal etc.), but where can I watch this online? I don't have Foxtel.

Spot on LordTravis. But they show a lot more too. Lewis horribly out of position. Our press too high. Soft efforts.Too slow. It's really worth a watch if you can. They focus on us for the first 15 minutes.

A big point was that the big problems are structural.

[Adam The God 30,420]

5 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I don’t believe it’s a personnel problem.

Except maybe when we have both of of Lewis and Vince in the backline at the same time due to their inability to keep their feet and Keck of pace.

Most of our back six are fine and would benefit greatly from playing a less agressive and more defensive setup imo.

Agreed.

I still believe we have one of the strongest backlines in the league. That is individually. But as a unit, as players within our current defensive mechanism, we have one of the weakest.

Oscar is a promising up and coming KPB. Hibberd is a gun. Lever is a gun. Jetta is a gun. Hunt is a gun, but needs to improve his disposal (no more than Houli at Richmond though).

That's 5 really solid players. They are not a defence that should be leaking goals as we do. Our system is ridiculously flawed and I cannot understand why we've reverted to the aggressive press that killed us so much last year.

The first two rounds saw us test varying levels of the press, but against Hawthorn in the rain, the aggressive press was absurd. 

[Skuit 10,031]

19 hours ago, Clintosaurus said:

Exactly. I reckon Essendon would have similar or worse stats, but they are media darlings, plus the media have to all pile in on a different team each week. Carlton seem to be escaping such scrutiny. Guess a few 'journos' might have parted with a few $$$ backing us on the weekend.

This.

The 'brave' CFC over our same wretched period:

2018: 18th . . .

2017: 16th

2016: 14th

2015: 18th

2014: 13th

2013: (9th)

2012: 10th

 

[praha 11,240]

20 hours ago, Clintosaurus said:

Exactly. I reckon Essendon would have similar or worse stats, but they are media darlings, plus the media have to all pile in on a different team each week. Carlton seem to be escaping such scrutiny. Guess a few 'journos' might have parted with a few $$$ backing us on the weekend.

 

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

This.

The 'brave' CFC over our same wretched period:

2018: 18th . . .

2017: 16th

2016: 14th

2015: 18th

2014: 13th

2013: (9th)

2012: 10th

 

Unlike what many here think, I believe the media is active in its positive support for us, as evident in its talking up of Melbourne throughout the pre-season.

When Melbourne goes bad it's a story because we've been so bad for so long, and I think people do genuinely want to see us do well.

The expectation now is that we should not be performing still as we did on the weekend. It's a story because even people that don't support Melbourne are sick and tired of the rubbish they give up. Media folk are just as quick to talk us up and praise us as the next best thing as they are to talk us down. IMO, the scrutiny we have faced this week is completely justified. It was as bad a performance by a team as we've seen this year.

Carlton hasn't had anywhere near as much AFL assistance as us, and didn't have a Paul Roos or Peter Jackson brought it to right the ship. It's a non-story when they don't perform.

Essendon is building back from 4 years of excessive media scrutiny that goes far beyond any on-field ineptness. I don't think Essendon performing badly is interesting. Like Carlton, it's a bit of a non-story. The public is just exhausted of anything Essendon.

For all the complaining Melbourne fans make of us not getting coverage in the media, we actually get a hell of a lot. St Kilda didn't get anywhere near as much coverage about its performance as we have after one bad performance.

I get that the media are merchants of negativity, but even as one of the league's so-called "smaller" clubs, we have always seemed to get coverage akin to that of the powerhouses. 

This may be due to the club's "friends" in high places, and the weird number of people in the media industry that are Melbourne supporters (we probably have more former Melbourne players, and supporters working in the media than any other club).

We're scrutinised because people expect (and want) so much from the club. That's not a bad thing.

Besides, none of the coverage this week has been unjustified. We deserved to be hounded. That wasn't just a 67-point loss. It was -- as they say -- a football lesson.

[Gawn's Beard 378]

I think for me the issues almost boil down to a change in roles across some of the defensive lines, particularly:

Hibberd & Hunt: gone from the alternating free half backs to tighter man markers. Hibberd has been required to play deeper than he was last year  

Lewis / Vince: now playing the free half backs

It’s meant we’ve played with less pace, are quicker to close down up the ground, and then get exposed out the back. 

Perhaps Lewis going out will be a good thing for our defensive structures, particularly to be replaced by someone with pace who can implement the aggressive press more effectively. 

I understand wanting to get the ball into Llewis / Vince’s hands at HB, but it appears to be causing too many structural issues for our defence to deal with 

 

[DeeSpencer 26,082]

There has to be a question about the value of zone defending but if you are to do it the major problem is midfield and forward pressure. 

Teams are getting quicker and moving the ball much faster, that's the Richmond effect. They're also conditioned to facing zone defending. They've come up against it since about 2014 if not before. The inexperienced teams that are learning the zone defence now - Brisbane and Carlton particularly - are getting destroyed.

What do we have to do to fix it:
1. Backline: Tighten the zone up and live with more one on ones if need be. If you're playing infront it's 3m infront not 10. Hunt for Frost is the obvious in for Richmond but that alone won't solve all our problems especially given Hunt is likely still a fair way from his best. Got to keep building the trust and communication between the defenders to get the balance right between who's up and who's down. And the backs have to stop feeling sorry for themselves once the ball is one the deck and work out how they'll support the guy who gets the ball. The ball carrier was a sitting duck against the Hawks, there was no one pushing as hard as they could to get a handball receive or spread for a switch.

2. Change the make up of the midfield and find players who will not let their men get between them and the goal. Speed and hard running are needed. As is more balance around stoppages.

3. The forwards have to be better organised and work harder with their pressure. It's why we went to 1 tall. I'd suggest we have to go back to 2 talls against the Tigers but there has to be that desperation to chase and tackle with force.

As for improving our overall standard of play - we have to find some cohesion with our handballs. We can't just be flicking it around one hot potato to another. All over the ground we've been dreadful at getting the ball out to a free runner. Hopefully a bit of pace on the wings helps but it might not happen overnight.

 

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

On 4/17/2018 at 7:55 AM, buck_nekkid said:

Only damning in context:

how many times have we had a run on of 4 or more goals?

how many times have other teams suffered such a run on.

how many games did we win or lose when it happened?

it is a worthless piece of cheap journalism without context.

Totally agree.

I saw the numbers from whately.

What a [censored], it means nothing unless he has all other clubs to compare with.