5 hours ago, picket fence said:

Bottom line, is he in our best 22??

That's not the bottom line. It's a recipe for mediocrity, and as I posted earlier, it's a miserably low bar to set for a 9-year player.

2 hours ago, Akum said:

We apparently have standards of intensity or whatever that doesn't tolerate anything but the highest levels.

Yes, crazy idea. It'll never get us anywhere.

19 hours ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Not sure how you have come to the conclusion that Watts kicking is overrated. Not only is our best user of the football by foot he'd be one of the best in the league. Not many players can slot goals from the pockets like he does. The problem in his early years was that Watts would kick the ball to space where his teammate should be but we had players who didn't know where to run. Watts has faults in his game but kicking isn't one of them.

 

Jack is an indisputably lovely kick for goals, and so I was referring more to his field-kicking. And in absolute fairness to Jack, and on further reflection, I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt re. your raising of the early years - which, admittedly, are where my thoughts originated rather than being so much of a recent thing. He was lauded early on for his kicking, which I felt was overrated for being mostly dinky insiders through the midfield (ironically what much of the team are being encouraged to do now), but really there probably wasn't much else on offer at the time. Fair play to Jack. 

Look at Q4 of the Carlton game, ie the first one, round 2. Watts's role was crucial in us winning that game.  Wihtout him we would have lost. Or take another one: that breakthrough win against Hawthorn in 2016.  That little toe poke kick to Tyson which got us a crucial goal, then (later) that razor sharp 50m kick to Tyson for the gaol that killed them off.   He's not an accumulator (I may have misspelt that..) , racking up 30 touches week after week, like Oliver.   Nor is he a physical player who busts packs, like Viney.  But those guys haven't got the skills that Watts has to split open a defence by a penetrating kick, or to kick a crucial goal from an angle. His disposal are fewer but in many ways dealier.   A team is just that, a team, it takes a combination of severals kinds of player, working as one,  to be successfu.  And a guy like Watts is just as much an essential part of that as say an inside player like Jones. For God's sake keep him.  

16 minutes ago, London Demon said:

Look at Q4 of the Carlton game, ie the first one, round 2. Watts's role was crucial in us winning that game.  Wihtout him we would have lost. Or take another one: that breakthrough win against Hawthorn in 2016.  That little toe poke kick to Tyson which got us a crucial goal, then (later) that razor sharp 50m kick to Tyson for the gaol that killed them off.   He's not an accumulator (I may have misspelt that..) , racking up 30 touches week after week, like Oliver.   Nor is he a physical player who busts packs, like Viney.  But those guys haven't got the skills that Watts has to split open a defence by a penetrating kick, or to kick a crucial goal from an angle. His disposal are fewer but in many ways dealier.   A team is just that, a team, it takes a combination of severals kinds of player, working as one,  to be successfu.  And a guy like Watts is just as much an essential part of that as say an inside player like Jones. For God's sake keep him.  

And the QB goal. Best football moment of 2017.

I completely agree with you. But he's gone. Sydney premieres 2018. Watts sealer.

5 hours ago, No10 said:

It's not really my point to say Gawn or Hunt were not good this year, it's that Roos COULD claim to have taken talented players to the top level.

Unlike Oliver, Trac or ANB, those guys above and Watts all broke out after years of not quite fulfilling potential.

Roos certainly challenged Gawn pre-season. He protected Watts when the media questioned him.

If you listened to Roos being interviewed about Watts being up for trade, he said it clearly, it would be a mistake.

Watch Watts at Sydney next year.

Personally I would definitely keep Watts, and would have liked Roos to stay. Goodwin is a first year coach, see how he goes next year.

Even this year just a better run with injuries and we definitely would have made the 8. Injuries aside we still should have made it, an opportunity missed.

 

The idea that the club owes anything to Jack because he was "Loyal" is moronic to say the least.
I have been a supporter for 26 years now and have felt the same anxt and hardship that we all have but year after year I wear red and blue, get into arguements with other footy teams fans defending us, pay my membership and go to/watch every game I can. I live in sydney and I fly interstate often just to see our boys play.
By the logic that we should keep the players due to loyalty then I would say 99% of us Demonland members would deserve a game in red and blue.

Jack is an interesting case. and although I have a completley different career path to him I think him and I have some similarities.
I joined my job in 2008 at the age of 17, showed a lot of promise early and had regularly under performed do to general lack of interest. very good at my core job, one of the brighter kids in my working environment and had heaps of good friends, and if I put in more effort I could have probably been along further in my career, but instead I relied upon my natural ability to my arrogance and coasted along. It wasn't until I was sat down by my bosses and had my resignation signed for me and I saw people that I considered below me in terms of job ability started surpassing me due to attitude and professionalism that the penny dropped and I started being accellerated through my career.

Not trying to make it about me because it's not but heres my lesson learned.?
Did my employer owe me anything? NO
Was my career path solely decided by myself? YES
Did I deserve chance after chance to improve my attitude and general mood towards the organisation? NO
Thankfully I pulled my head in and im into my 10th year in the Navy with a lot ahead of me.

Also, I am not sure who here plays local footy but the same goes there. At my local club if you don't train and prepare the way the staff want you to and what is expected of you then you don't play, simple as that.We don't get paid, or anything like that, but you owe it to the people taking their time out to coach you, and play along side you to tow the line and give them the effort they deserve.
Whether you're premier division or division 5, the same standard is set across the board, no matter how good you are or how much the team needs you, we have had our captain dropped after he missed a team session on a Thursday night because he chose to get on the [censored].

Jack and I are similar ages (26/25) so I would like to think I have a geenral idea on how his mind works. He, just like me (Any my missus will agree to this) have a [censored] load of growing up to do and still consider ourself one of the boys and still a bit immature, and just like him, I have junior people in my organisation look up to me whether they like it or not. The standard that you hold is the standard that is set.
So for me to say "Yep, trade him, [censored] him" would be rich however when I was staring down the barrell of a resignation I wasn't surprised and didnt expect my bosses to show me any leniency any more (Thank god they did).

Jack, don't be surprised at the situation that you have created for yourself, would we all love to see you in red and blue next year? sure, but do we expect a hell of a lot more from you? Yes. Get to the early training days that the first years have to attend, train harder than anyone on the track and hold yourself to a standard.
But if you even for one second think that the club, playing group, coaching staff, members and fans are even going to let you put a toe out of line then youll be playing for Casey and removed from the club so quickly then youll want to look for a new job.

People who quote the poor decisions and turnovers of other players have little clue.  This is about preparation and effort. 

It was incredibly disrespectful to Goodwin, who he knew was trying to set standards in his first year as coach, to prepare poorly during the off-season.  Word of his activities would have been getting back to the club.  There aren't many secrets in a club environment.  He knew it was a big year for Goodwin, he knew we were a realistic chance for finals, but it didn't matter enough to him.

You nearly always get what you deserve in footy (and life), which is why he's in the position he's in.

5 hours ago, No10 said:

If you listened to Roos being interviewed about Watts being up for trade, he said it clearly, it would be a mistake.

Listen to the whole 1 hour interview, some very interesting comments in the second half.

45 minutes ago, The Sailing Demon said:

The idea that the club owes anything to Jack because he was "Loyal" is moronic to say the least.
I have been a supporter for 26 years now and have felt the same anxt and hardship that we all have but year after year I wear red and blue, get into arguements with other footy teams fans defending us, pay my membership and go to/watch every game I can. I live in sydney and I fly interstate often just to see our boys play.
By the logic that we should keep the players due to loyalty then I would say 99% of us Demonland members would deserve a game in red and blue.

Jack is an interesting case. and although I have a completley different career path to him I think him and I have some similarities.
I joined my job in 2008 at the age of 17, showed a lot of promise early and had regularly under performed do to general lack of interest. very good at my core job, one of the brighter kids in my working environment and had heaps of good friends, and if I put in more effort I could have probably been along further in my career, but instead I relied upon my natural ability to my arrogance and coasted along. It wasn't until I was sat down by my bosses and had my resignation signed for me and I saw people that I considered below me in terms of job ability started surpassing me due to attitude and professionalism that the penny dropped and I started being accellerated through my career.

Not trying to make it about me because it's not but heres my lesson learned.?
Did my employer owe me anything? NO
Was my career path solely decided by myself? YES
Did I deserve chance after chance to improve my attitude and general mood towards the organisation? NO
Thankfully I pulled my head in and im into my 10th year in the Navy with a lot ahead of me.

Also, I am not sure who here plays local footy but the same goes there. At my local club if you don't train and prepare the way the staff want you to and what is expected of you then you don't play, simple as that.We don't get paid, or anything like that, but you owe it to the people taking their time out to coach you, and play along side you to tow the line and give them the effort they deserve.
Whether you're premier division or division 5, the same standard is set across the board, no matter how good you are or how much the team needs you, we have had our captain dropped after he missed a team session on a Thursday night because he chose to get on the [censored].

Jack and I are similar ages (26/25) so I would like to think I have a geenral idea on how his mind works. He, just like me (Any my missus will agree to this) have a [censored] load of growing up to do and still consider ourself one of the boys and still a bit immature, and just like him, I have junior people in my organisation look up to me whether they like it or not. The standard that you hold is the standard that is set.
So for me to say "Yep, trade him, [censored] him" would be rich however when I was staring down the barrell of a resignation I wasn't surprised and didnt expect my bosses to show me any leniency any more (Thank god they did).

Jack, don't be surprised at the situation that you have created for yourself, would we all love to see you in red and blue next year? sure, but do we expect a hell of a lot more from you? Yes. Get to the early training days that the first years have to attend, train harder than anyone on the track and hold yourself to a standard.
But if you even for one second think that the club, playing group, coaching staff, members and fans are even going to let you put a toe out of line then youll be playing for Casey and removed from the club so quickly then youll want to look for a new job.

Angst

Argument

Toe the line

Go back to school 

16 minutes ago, Skin Deeamond said:

Angst

Argument

Toe the line

Go back to school 

Okay mate sorry. 2 spelling mistakes and use of an incorrect term.
I will go back and enroll in another year of education just for that.

If that's what you took from my post then I feel sorry for you.

8 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

It was a rut then inconsistent. I can quite Goodwin if you like. So things won’t change. Then ... 

Vince has had two poor years of turnovers and poor discipline. Going backwards. He cost us badly. Is he to be dumped. Experienced player with zero trade value.  Has finished ahead of Watts in 2 of the last 3 B&F's and will do so again this year.

Tommy Mac makes poor decisions and clangers. No improvement there. His kick out to Cox in the final game was a joke. It happens far to often.  Is he to be dumped  Will be a perm forward from next year onwards where his clangers wont be as big an issue.

Tyson is always making poor decisions, turnover king and not turning into the a-grader we were hoping. Poor start and took time to get into ‘17. Is he to be dumped. There's a two week trade period to come, and it wouldn't shock me if his name is thrown up.

Col Garland was poor in 2016 and injured all 2017. Not part of any premiership 22. 12-month contract to save him ?? Or Is he to be dumped. Zero trade value.

No dump the guy with a further 2 years to run, 9 years of loyalty, class, skill and goal kicking. 

 

14 minutes ago, The Sailing Demon said:

Okay mate sorry. 2 spelling mistakes and use of an incorrect term.
I will go back and enroll in another year of education just for that.

If that's what you took from my post then I feel sorry for you.

Spelling isn't the only thing Skin Diamond Deeamond learnt at school. (Do a google search to see!)

 

Although I can't work what kind of school it must have been. Finishing school, maybe.

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Listen to the whole 1 hour interview, some very interesting comments in the second half.

Is that the podcast?

Is there a link?

Thanks

1 hour ago, The Sailing Demon said:

The idea that the club owes anything to Jack because he was "Loyal" is moronic to say the least.
I have been a supporter for 26 years now and have felt the same anxt and hardship that we all have but year after year I wear red and blue, get into arguements with other footy teams fans defending us, pay my membership and go to/watch every game I can. I live in sydney and I fly interstate often just to see our boys play.
By the logic that we should keep the players due to loyalty then I would say 99% of us Demonland members would deserve a game in red and blue.

Jack is an interesting case. and although I have a completley different career path to him I think him and I have some similarities.
I joined my job in 2008 at the age of 17, showed a lot of promise early and had regularly under performed do to general lack of interest. very good at my core job, one of the brighter kids in my working environment and had heaps of good friends, and if I put in more effort I could have probably been along further in my career, but instead I relied upon my natural ability to my arrogance and coasted along. It wasn't until I was sat down by my bosses and had my resignation signed for me and I saw people that I considered below me in terms of job ability started surpassing me due to attitude and professionalism that the penny dropped and I started being accellerated through my career.

Not trying to make it about me because it's not but heres my lesson learned.?
Did my employer owe me anything? NO
Was my career path solely decided by myself? YES
Did I deserve chance after chance to improve my attitude and general mood towards the organisation? NO
Thankfully I pulled my head in and im into my 10th year in the Navy with a lot ahead of me.

Also, I am not sure who here plays local footy but the same goes there. At my local club if you don't train and prepare the way the staff want you to and what is expected of you then you don't play, simple as that.We don't get paid, or anything like that, but you owe it to the people taking their time out to coach you, and play along side you to tow the line and give them the effort they deserve.
Whether you're premier division or division 5, the same standard is set across the board, no matter how good you are or how much the team needs you, we have had our captain dropped after he missed a team session on a Thursday night because he chose to get on the [censored].

Jack and I are similar ages (26/25) so I would like to think I have a geenral idea on how his mind works. He, just like me (Any my missus will agree to this) have a [censored] load of growing up to do and still consider ourself one of the boys and still a bit immature, and just like him, I have junior people in my organisation look up to me whether they like it or not. The standard that you hold is the standard that is set.
So for me to say "Yep, trade him, [censored] him" would be rich however when I was staring down the barrell of a resignation I wasn't surprised and didnt expect my bosses to show me any leniency any more (Thank god they did).

Jack, don't be surprised at the situation that you have created for yourself, would we all love to see you in red and blue next year? sure, but do we expect a hell of a lot more from you? Yes. Get to the early training days that the first years have to attend, train harder than anyone on the track and hold yourself to a standard.
But if you even for one second think that the club, playing group, coaching staff, members and fans are even going to let you put a toe out of line then youll be playing for Casey and removed from the club so quickly then youll want to look for a new job.

Well said pusser, love it

Your name must be Alex?

8 hours ago, Dr.D said:

ok admittedly im not a jack watts fan. he has infuriated me from the start with his soft football and to be honest I'm a bit surprised that people aren't glad for the trade.

I acknowledge that it maybe couldve been handled a bit better but at the end of the day goodwin doesnt want watts in the team and blind freddy can see its because he plays weak footy.  Its not jacks fault, he just doesnt have that killer instinct to tackle or chase with ferocity. you can't teach that and why does everyone go mute when we talk about this issue. 

if we make finals next year i'd trust watts to kick straight but i would never trust him to put his head over the footy or back into packs etc. his efforts in the phyical department are up there with cale morton

Not disageeing with you, but i still believe Jack can become a player IF he realizes that this is it. 

He now has to prove himself. 

From school days Jack was always the best. He never had to learn to push himself. He just played Jack Football, which got him results

For that reason i would give him next preseason (If he doesn’t want to go) to prove his worth to the team ethos

i value his kicking, and because of that i would say to him

”This is it”

My 2 cents:

For those saying this is all "Goodwin", and Roos got the most out of Watts etc.  Sure, that may be true, but so what?  It's Goodwin's team now.  He can shape the list how he sees fit.  We don't talk negatively about Roos bringing on board Michie, Riley, Kennedy et al.  We just go with it.  Roos has been great with culture absolutely.  He has only won 1 premiership as a coach.  

With Goodwin, he's a premiership player x 2, a captain of a footy club and a natural leader.  I back him in knowing what it takes to build a premiership list.  

To Watts.  Yes he's loyal, and a great club man.  Yes he has skill.  These types of individuals definitely have their place in any club and have great benefit.  What he simply lacks is his drive or ambition to do what it takes to be the best.  In the past, this may have been enough, but with the professionalism of AFL now, it simply is not.  I use Trent Cotchin as an example this year.  Previously I would have put Cotchin in Watts category.  Nice, polite, and skillful.  This year he pushed himself to the next level.  His desire to get "dirty" and put his body on the line really showed.  I'm yet to see this in Watts.  

There was a post comparing stats earlier about Watts and Lynch.  That is quite damning.  Something that we don't have stats for, which would essentially find Watts out in my opinion is the number of times his marking contests brought the ball to ground when he didn't mark it.  Our game plan is if we can't mark it in the fwd 50, to bring it to ground and trap it in our forward 50.  When Watts didn't do this during the year on several occasions, it led to a transition and goal or score down the other end quite often.  It releases the pressure both implied and scoreboard and kills momentum.  

Long story short, it's clear that when we make finals next year, Goodwin simply doesn't feel confident in picking Watts as he's not sure which Watts he would be getting.  Thus...he's a liability. 

15 hours ago, ChewyOnMyBoot said:

Was interested in the comment above (that I have bolded) that inferred that the comparisons between Lynch (Adelaide) and Watts based on the 2 year 'performance' data that I provided earlier (and which showed that there isn't really a significant difference in their stats) would be quite different if I extended the period to 5 seasons instead of 2.

So I thought yeah, lets look at the last 5 years. I admit that I too thought that this would show a very different picture to the 2 year comparison.

But it doesn't (as far as I can see).
Averages for the last 5 seasons (2013-2017) 

Adding my comments from my previous post on this so that they can be read in context of the above 5 year data:

Interestingly, in the areas where it seems people (and the general football public) seem to have a real concern with Jack (the contest e.g. Tackles, Contested possessions, Contested marks and One percenters), Jack is certainly 'up' with Lynch.

I'm not convinced that Jack is used/sought out as the 'link player' at Melbourne in quite the same way as Lynch. Adelaide looks with much more intention/purpose for Lynch than we do for Jack (who I think quite often makes fantastic position on the ground but is overlooked).  I'm not certain, but I'm thinking this could explain the reason that Jack is below in total disposals.

I find the stats really interesting given the level of praise that generally gets heaped on Lynch as a player and as a link man by the media compared to what Jack cops. Just sayin'! It kind of adds to my confusion and inability to come to a definite pro or nay Jack position in my own mind.

 

This all goes to show why statements (of opinion) on player performance like the ones often made about MFC players (and seemingly  in particular Watts), that aren't based facts, can be quite misleading. Some would say irresponsible.

For me it shows how biases (which I'm sure are the result of the expectations created by the preaching directed at us 9 years ago that the messiah had arrived and would lead us out of the wilderness) can result in distorted 'impressions' and opinions - ones that aren't supported by the facts anyway.

Following are links to my source for the above data in case anyone wants to check up on me:

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Lynch0.html

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jack_Watts.html

Disclaimer: If any of the data is incorrect (I have triple checked it because i was surprised by the results) it is quite unintentional. I am neither pro or nay Watts. Just like to take the emotions and bias out of performance assessment.

Finally some facts. Dont forget Jack averaged 15 disposals over his whole career. This of course included his first year as a 17 year old when he averaged 9. It is also fact that he played in a crappy team that did not very often honour his leads due to poor skills and other reasons. A lot on here are clouded by their own il informed dislike of Jacks footy. Have a read of jack Watts on Wikipedia to see the real facts.

1 hour ago, The Sailing Demon said:

The idea that the club owes anything to Jack because he was "Loyal" is moronic to say the least.
I have been a supporter for 26 years now and have felt the same anxt and hardship that we all have but year after year I wear red and blue, get into arguements with other footy teams fans defending us, pay my membership and go to/watch every game I can. I live in sydney and I fly interstate often just to see our boys play.
By the logic that we should keep the players due to loyalty then I would say 99% of us Demonland members would deserve a game in red and blue.
 

Great post TSD. I can think of heaps of people I've worked with over the many years who fit the same category, whether it be in a big company or a small business. Genuinely nice people and popular with fellow staff, but just don't get it when it comes to work standards. As a friend, you try to talk to them about it, but they are always in denial, and will blame everybody else. Finally they are put on Performance Management, and either the penny drops, or they are pushed out the door. 

People on here would have no idea of discussions between the FD and Watts throughout the year. We know that Watts was disciplined during the preseason, and when know the club wasn't happy with how he came back from his rehab with a hammy. And yet Watts still seems to be in denial. And we're still talking in terms of his potential after 9 seasons.

9 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

That quote just sums up 85 pages in one hit

superb work Vibes

Blue Poles??

Collingwood Circling, will probably offer a straight swap for Chris Mayne LOL = we would probably look at it!! 

DOH!

5 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Collingwood Circling, will probably offer a straight swap for Chris Mayne LOL = we would probably look at it!! 

DOH!

Great another Collingwood spud, no thank you prefer to keep Watts.

20 minutes ago, demon-4-life said:

My 2 cents:

For those saying this is all "Goodwin", and Roos got the most out of Watts etc.  Sure, that may be true, but so what?  It's Goodwin's team now.  He can shape the list how he sees fit.  We don't talk negatively about Roos bringing on board Michie, Riley, Kennedy et al.  We just go with it.  Roos has been great with culture absolutely.  He has only won 1 premiership as a coach.  

With Goodwin, he's a premiership player x 2, a captain of a footy club and a natural leader.  I back him in knowing what it takes to build a premiership list.  

To Watts.  Yes he's loyal, and a great club man.  Yes he has skill.  These types of individuals definitely have their place in any club and have great benefit.  What he simply lacks is his drive or ambition to do what it takes to be the best.  In the past, this may have been enough, but with the professionalism of AFL now, it simply is not.  I use Trent Cotchin as an example this year.  Previously I would have put Cotchin in Watts category.  Nice, polite, and skillful.  This year he pushed himself to the next level.  His desire to get "dirty" and put his body on the line really showed.  I'm yet to see this in Watts.  

There was a post comparing stats earlier about Watts and Lynch.  That is quite damning.  Something that we don't have stats for, which would essentially find Watts out in my opinion is the number of times his marking contests brought the ball to ground when he didn't mark it.  Our game plan is if we can't mark it in the fwd 50, to bring it to ground and trap it in our forward 50.  When Watts didn't do this during the year on several occasions, it led to a transition and goal or score down the other end quite often.  It releases the pressure both implied and scoreboard and kills momentum.  

Long story short, it's clear that when we make finals next year, Goodwin simply doesn't feel confident in picking Watts as he's not sure which Watts he would be getting.  Thus...he's a liability. 

Watts is not a Travis Cloke who will always bring it to ground. He's a Jack Gunston type, leads up at the ball, uses his pace and superior kicking to open up the field of play. He's better as a high forward or wingman.

Goodwin trying to get Watts to fly at the ball and become a contested marking beast from round 1 was the disconnect which has led to this. Instead of focusing on Watts' strengths, he tried to change Watts' weaknesses which has achieved nothing. If the terms of Jack's role next year is to do the same, then for his sake he should leave as Goodwin doesn't know how to call a spade a spade. 

34 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Not disageeing with you, but i still believe Jack can become a player IF he realizes that this is it. 

He now has to prove himself. 

From school days Jack was always the best. He never had to learn to push himself. He just played Jack Football, which got him results

For that reason i would give him next preseason (If he doesn’t want to go) to prove his worth to the team ethos

i value his kicking, and because of that i would say to him

”This is it”

Any other player sure, but not JW, he doesn't have it in him consistently try, it's not in his nature.

1 hour ago, demon-4-life said:

With Goodwin, he's a premiership player x 2, a captain of a footy club and a natural leader. 

His premierships were in his first 2 years at the crows and his captaincy started 10 years later.  So it could not be said that he was a leader of a successful team.  Also, many excellent and decorated players are appointed to leadership positions eg captains that aren't good leaders; look no further than our beloved Demons.

Individual success + Captaincy do not = Good Leadership

When given the opportunity to show leadership he didn't:

1. At the age of 30 and about to be appointed Captain at the Crows he was taken to task by the AFL for gambling on an AFL game.  After being appointed captain he had treatment for a long standing gambling addiction.  

Set good standards - I think not!

Did not show leadership, especially of a young team that looked up to him.

2.  At the age of 32 he was Ass Coach of a club that implemented an unprecedented doping regime over an extended period of time.  He was not cited, probably because WADA rules didn't extend to support staff. 

Set good standards - I think not!

Did not show leadership, especially of a young team that looked up to him and relied on him amongst others to look after their well being.

He was a very successful player, average as captain, failed as an asst coach, average as first year senior coach and I can find no evidence that he is a good leader of any sort let alone a natural leader or a successful leader.

So hopefully people will stop talking about his leadership skills.