Thats what you get for leaving Michael Hibberd out of your Top 10 recruits of 2017.

26 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

An interesting take on journalism - I heard an industry expert say that journalism is one of the most practiced careers of teenagers.  They take a photo, post it on Instagram, write an "article" about what the story is.  A very simplistic way of looking at journalism, but the foundations are basically the same.

Not even remotely journalism. or at least, the journalism worth saving.

If this was journalism, just for example, the churches would still be successfully running child abuse rings from Dublin to Boston to Ballarat.

3 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

People taking "a communication/journalism degree" are working in marketing communications and PR for corporations and government - not in journalism.

Please list the media companies that have "adjust(ed) to modern times" and are employing more journalists.

Your first point is a blanket statement that is plain wrong.  Many graduates get jobs in journalism, many graduates do a journalism degree with no intention of doing it as a career.  The ones that do want to be journalists have to be creative in where they look for jobs.  The ratio of graduate programs at Fairfax, etc, compared to the amount of graduates isn't balanced.  That's why graduates wanting to be journalists are being encouraged to do freelancing work, working for non-profit organisations, universities themselves, and online-only producers.

I will answer your second point honestly.  Fairfax still employ graduates.

I'm really enjoying this conversation, 55, and would love to continue it - I don't work in media but do have my finger on the pulse on these sort of things.  But can I suggest we do so via DM, so that we don't clog up a thread about non-footy related stuff!

2 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Not even remotely journalism. or at least, the journalism worth saving.

If this was journalism, just for example, the churches would still be successfully running child abuse rings from Dublin to Boston to Ballarat.

What is "journalism" then, LG?

 

19 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

I'm really enjoying this conversation, 55, and would love to continue it - I don't work in media but do have my finger on the pulse on these sort of things.  But can I suggest we do so via DM, so that we don't clog up a thread about non-footy related stuff!

i say keep it in here.

i work in digital, used to work as a content person, i find it interesting too

21 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

What is "journalism" then, LG?

 

Throw in a few features like; seeking out multiple sources, finding 'silent' sources and convincing them to share, verifying with records, critically evaluating the credibility and motivates of other's communications, being aware of broader contexts and using them to shape what you produce, writing/producing effectively to make your audience aware of those contexts, identifying the most important information, blah blah blah., y'know.

"I put a band-aid on my own booboo mummy, I'm a surgeon!"

"I've got a potato, I'm a farmer!"

15 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

Throw in a few features like; seeking out multiple sources, finding 'silent' sources and convincing them to share, verifying with records, critically evaluating the credibility and motivates of other's communications, being aware of broader contexts and using them to shape what you produce, writing/producing effectively to make your audience aware of those contexts, identifying the most important information, blah blah blah., y'know...

You have totally overreacted.  In my comment (which wasn't actually my comment), the point was made that it was a very simplistic way of looking at journalism.  For fun, I have googled "what is journalism", the simplistic definition of it is "the activity of preparing news to be broadcast".  When you post something on Instagram (as an example social media platform that was used in this presentation), it's generally taking a photo of "news" (it's newsworthy for the user), then preparing an article (i.e. "post"), that is then broadcasted to the poster's followers.

The other similarity about it is the speed in which the news item is being broadcast.  It (Instagram, etc) is instantaneous.  Online news reports now are instantaneous.  It's part of the reason (note, part of, not THE) that print media is struggling.  Why would we wait to read something on paper tomorrow, when we can generally read about it online minutes after it happened?

I'm sure you can now see why the comparison was made.  It made sense to me, but perhaps it was simplistic enough for me to understand.

Your comparisons with churches, potatoes and bandaids is childish, and this will be the last time I acknowledge them in our discussion.

 

1 hour ago, The Chazz said:

Your first point is a blanket statement that is plain wrong.  Many graduates get jobs in journalism,

Don't know where to source figures that disprove this but I don't agree.

I did a journalism degree about 20 years ago, at a time when only one institution - RMIT - offered it. There were 50 graduates a year, and another 12 or so doing it post-grad and that was it. The ABC had about 10 national cadetships a year, and Fairfax / NewsCorp about half of that in each of their metropolitan markets i.e. 5 at The Age, 5 at the SMH etc. Beyond that, you had to go bush to get a gig. 

Nowadays, every uni and TAFE offers a number of journalism and communications degrees, so you have hundreds, if not thousands, of students graduating every year, and only a handful of cadetships / traineeships. Of course not every graduate wants to be a journalist, but many do, and the jobs just don't exist. As Fifty-5 said, most end up working in PR, comms, spin doctoring etc. There's a plethora of those jobs, but if you want to be the next Richard Baker (Kate McClymont is better), it's nigh on impossible to get a gig in a metropolitan newsroom these days.  

2 hours ago, The Chazz said:

Your first point is a blanket statement that is plain wrong.  Many graduates get jobs in journalism, many graduates do a journalism degree with no intention of doing it as a career.  The ones that do want to be journalists have to be creative in where they look for jobs.  The ratio of graduate programs at Fairfax, etc, compared to the amount of graduates isn't balanced.  That's why graduates wanting to be journalists are being encouraged to do freelancing work, working for non-profit organisations, universities themselves, and online-only producers.

I will answer your second point honestly.  Fairfax still employ graduates.

I'm really enjoying this conversation, 55, and would love to continue it - I don't work in media but do have my finger on the pulse on these sort of things.  But can I suggest we do so via DM, so that we don't clog up a thread about non-footy related stuff!

https://thewest.com.au/business/media/2500-plus-journo-jobs-lost-since-2011-ng-s-1725094

"A public inquiry has heard more than 2500 journalist jobs have been lost in Australia since 2011."

2 hours ago, The Chazz said:

You have totally overreacted.  In my comment (which wasn't actually my comment), the point was made that it was a very simplistic way of looking at journalism.  For fun, I have googled "what is journalism", the simplistic definition of it is "the activity of preparing news to be broadcast".  When you post something on Instagram (as an example social media platform that was used in this presentation), it's generally taking a photo of "news" (it's newsworthy for the user), then preparing an article (i.e. "post"), that is then broadcasted to the poster's followers.

The other similarity about it is the speed in which the news item is being broadcast.  It (Instagram, etc) is instantaneous.  Online news reports now are instantaneous.  It's part of the reason (note, part of, not THE) that print media is struggling.  Why would we wait to read something on paper tomorrow, when we can generally read about it online minutes after it happened?

I'm sure you can now see why the comparison was made.  It made sense to me, but perhaps it was simplistic enough for me to understand.

Your comparisons with churches, potatoes and bandaids is childish, and this will be the last time I acknowledge them in our discussion.

 

I am well aware why the comparison was made. The 'industry expert' wanted to sound cool and get along with the kids these days.

Presenting journalism as nothing more than 'preparing things to be broadcast' is at the heart of why newsmedia has gone to crap over the last 30 years or so.

As I said, as an example, under these standards of 'journalism', there would still be a successfully concealed global network of child abusers within multiple churches. It's not a small issue and that is no 'childish' bit of overreaction to you putting me on the spot to declare what journalism is.

On ‎6‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 9:08 PM, praha said:

The Age has been garbage for years. It's bad in a way different to how the Hun is bad, which is tabloid garbage. The Age has been a holier than thou, "do as I say not as I do" rag for a number of years. Appealing to inner city elites tends to alienate your previously working class audience.

I didn't mind Rohan but politicizing entertainment and sport stands to be a career killer. Sports coverage in this country is quite bizarre when you compare to the US and even the UK.

Age journos appear to blame everyone but themselves. Fairfax management had been fighting an uphill battle for years. It's the only media organisation that hasn't really changed its reporting strategy for the digital age. It's not feasible to pay one journo $60k a year for one article a week. The work output vs value has been killing that company slowly for years. Rohan is probably a symptom of that. His "voluntary" redundancy suggests either they wanted him to take a pay cut or boost his output, neither of which he wanted to do.

To be fair, if I want to know Gwyneth Paltrow's latest avocado smoothie recipes, or as Biffen articulated, be reminded of my inadequacies as a white, middle aged priviledged oppressor, it's always been my starting point.

2 hours ago, Grapeviney said:

Don't know where to source figures that disprove this but I don't agree.

I did a journalism degree about 20 years ago, at a time when only one institution - RMIT - offered it. There were 50 graduates a year, and another 12 or so doing it post-grad and that was it. The ABC had about 10 national cadetships a year, and Fairfax / NewsCorp about half of that in each of their metropolitan markets i.e. 5 at The Age, 5 at the SMH etc. Beyond that, you had to go bush to get a gig. 

Nowadays, every uni and TAFE offers a number of journalism and communications degrees, so you have hundreds, if not thousands, of students graduating every year, and only a handful of cadetships / traineeships. Of course not every graduate wants to be a journalist, but many do, and the jobs just don't exist. As Fifty-5 said, most end up working in PR, comms, spin doctoring etc. There's a plethora of those jobs, but if you want to be the next Richard Baker (Kate McClymont is better), it's nigh on impossible to get a gig in a metropolitan newsroom these days.  

Suprisingly GV, the amount of grad jobs remains very similar. Part of the issue of grads without jobs boils down to a key point you made. There are also jobs in the bush where grads can cut their teeth, the problem is a lot of them don't want to move there.

Many industries areally the same. Primary teaching is another that generally requires country time before landing that gig in a nice school in a nice location.

In Victoria there are something like 50 Midwifery grad jobs each year. One uni in Melbourne has some 70 grads themselves.

The point is, if you are good at what you do, you will likely pick up the job you want. If you are willing to work in the bush, your odds increase. If you are willing to do other things to build up your experience and reputation, then you will make it at some stage.

34 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

To be fair, if I want to know Gwyneth Paltrow's latest avocado smoothie recipes, or as Biffen articulated, be reminded of my inadequacies as a white, middle aged priviledged oppressor, it's always been my starting point.

I don't need to read The Age to hate myself. I work in creative industries. I'm reminded every day about how I've ruined civilisation. Being a man is one thing. But white? Game over, man. 

2 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

https://thewest.com.au/business/media/2500-plus-journo-jobs-lost-since-2011-ng-s-1725094

"A public inquiry has heard more than 2500 journalist jobs have been lost in Australia since 2011."

I've read Dept of Employment data that tells a different story, as well as job forecast data that shows job prospects for journalists isn't all doom and gloom, especially for those that aren't so precious about where they start their careers.

Edited June 8, 20178 yr by The Chazz

12 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Has been the way since the industrial revolution. Buggy whip makers wanted to pursue their craft as well.

All those in private enterprise are exposed to the changing technological landscape. Journos think they are somehow beyond that. IMO they have exacerbated their demise by becoming partisan cheerleaders and non-essential to most people under 30 who get their news from Buzzfeed, FB, Google and Twitter. God knows how that will turn out.

Everyone needs to learn new skills to remain relevant to employers. Not everyone can work for government.

Difference is the buggy whip makers aren't an essential part of a functioning democracy. Without an informed populace, democracy does not work. 

Agree with your second point, partisan cheerleading and being bought off has helped kill quality journalism. 

Whilst I'm not a fan of all of Andrew Bolts Opinions.

My respect for him grew enormously after he fought off those cowards in Lygon St.

Antifa (anti-fascist) are actually the ones using violence these days.

The lefties are the masked gangs crushing dissent.

it's all part and parcel of the demise of the Age.

There are swathes of people tired of their liberalised,stand for nothing,"isn't melbourne great",knit an orgasm ,latte sipping lushness.

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

Whilst I'm not a fan of all of Andrew Bolts Opinions.

My respect for him grew enormously after he fought off those cowards in Lygon St.

Antifa (anti-fascist) are actually the ones using violence these days.

The lefties are the masked gangs crushing dissent.

it's all part and parcel of the demise of the Age.

There are swathes of people tired of their liberalised,stand for nothing,"isn't melbourne great",knit an orgasm ,latte sipping lushness.

I really should have concentrated more in the Home Economics classes when I was at school.

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Difference is the buggy whip makers aren't an essential part of a functioning democracy. Without an informed populace, democracy does not work. 

Agree with your second point, partisan cheerleading and being bought off has helped kill quality journalism. 

We are really stuffed on that point. I have 3 kids who have never bought a newspaper and get all of their information from Google, FB and Buzzfeed. Now that those outlets are 'filtering' news content that they think you want to see or deleting information that they deem is 'hateful' or 'fake' etc we are entering a world where Orwell's novel 1984 will seem like a walk in the park.

As far as 'informed populace' is concerned look no further than the UK elections where Corbyn has promised 'free' uni education. Voter registrations are up massively from younger people. Seems bribery always works. Not sure how 'informed' the people are....

51 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

We are really stuffed on that point. I have 3 kids who have never bought a newspaper and get all of their information from Google, FB and Buzzfeed. Now that those outlets are 'filtering' news content that they think you want to see or deleting information that they deem is 'hateful' or 'fake' etc we are entering a world where Orwell's novel 1984 will seem like a walk in the park.

As far as 'informed populace' is concerned look no further than the UK elections where Corbyn has promised 'free' uni education. Voter registrations are up massively from younger people. Seems bribery always works. Not sure how 'informed' the people are....

Winston (Churchill, not from 1984) said, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." I think he was on to something. The idea that an uninformed, or even worse, ill-informed individual can have the same value at the polling booth as a fully informed individual is almost, but not quite as troubling as the idea that only certain individuals should be allowed to vote.

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

We are really stuffed on that point. I have 3 kids who have never bought a newspaper and get all of their information from Google, FB and Buzzfeed. Now that those outlets are 'filtering' news content that they think you want to see or deleting information that they deem is 'hateful' or 'fake' etc we are entering a world where Orwell's novel 1984 will seem like a walk in the park.

As far as 'informed populace' is concerned look no further than the UK elections where Corbyn has promised 'free' uni education. Voter registrations are up massively from younger people. Seems bribery always works. Not sure how 'informed' the people are....

People are often as foolish if not more than you'll ever afford them.

Scarey really !!

6 hours ago, Biffen said:

Whilst I'm not a fan of all of Andrew Bolts Opinions.

My respect for him grew enormously after he fought off those cowards in Lygon St.

Antifa (anti-fascist) are actually the ones using violence these days.

The lefties are the masked gangs crushing dissent.

it's all part and parcel of the demise of the Age.

There are swathes of people tired of their liberalised,stand for nothing,"isn't melbourne great",knit an orgasm ,latte sipping lushness.

Biff - I doubt whether the fall of the Age has got much to do with its political stance - it's more the transfer of the advertising dollar to unregulated on-line sites. The ultimate effect (as with Uber, Airbnb, etc) is further inequality, decline of wages, etc.

flanagan has penned his last article for the age

3 minutes ago, DemonAndrew said:

flanagan has penned his last article for the age

Wow. That is really sad. He was a true painter with a pen, that become a keyboard....

it's a ripper: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-power-of-the-game-and-its-people-make-me-forget-about-everything-else-in-the-world-20170609-gwnxdt.html

How sad he is going.