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Welcome to Demonland: Jake Lever

stevethemanjordan
stevethemanjordan
in Melbourne Demons

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2 hours ago, A F said:

So how much do we think Adelaide would offer him? And therefore, how high would we go?

Incidentally, given we're generally unleakable as a club, I'd say the rumours of us chasing Lever have almost certainly been leaked from Lever's management to up their client's asking figure. 

I'm not sure, if he averages 20 disposals a match id say 400k for 2 years is acceptable from Adelaide (but as there is interest 500k to keep him more like it). E.g. Daniher is only on 750k. But if hes as good as we think, then i'd offer our first round pick (8-14) and above what Adelaide offers (500-700k).

But there are other things at play:

  • Gibbs to Adelaide - yes/no
  • McGovern to WestCoast yes/no
  • What he actually wants to do (we have no idea - atm his manager is being smart and saying await finalisation of CBA).

Any of these will influence their salary cap and ability to keep him. Happy with whatever outcome occurs.

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    • Like 2
     

    I've seen Jetta spoil the big forwards by using a well timed leap.

    I agree that height can be misleading.

    Scarlett was one of the best full backs I've ever seen and only stood 192cm tall.

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    • Like 3

    Lever's strength for mine is his intercept marking and ability to read the play, which allows him to leave his man (ala Rance) and create a spoil/2v1 scenario in favour of his team.

    I wonder how he'd go in our high defensive press. Our defenders are often separated quite a bit, so it may take a tweak to our defensive press to best utilise Lever's strengths.

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    2 hours ago, A F said:

    Lever's strength for mine is his intercept marking and ability to read the play, which allows him to leave his man (ala Rance) and create a spoil/2v1 scenario in favour of his team.

    I wonder how he'd go in our high defensive press. Our defenders are often separated quite a bit, so it may take a tweak to our defensive press to best utilise Lever's strengths.

    That's a good point. We could clone SOS and Matty Scarlett and it still wouldn't make a difference to the way we set up defend sometimes. 

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    • Like 1

    I have often thought a kpd doesn't have to be particularly tall, but be able to read the ball coming in and have both a good leap and the body strength to not be pushed around in the contest. Good disposal is also important. Our kpds have some of these traits but fail in others.

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    11 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

    Get Lever and our spine is absolutely elite. And it will be for a very long time.

    Roos loved this guy - despite being a great head coach, I've always thought he would've been a great recruiter. Getting this bloke is a no brainer - it's a pity we couldn't get the pick from Richmond that would've landed Lever at the club in his draft year.

    That the Crows apparently want to sign him for another 5 years says it all really.

     

     

    For what it's worth Glenn Luff (champion data) and David King gave Lever a huge rap on SEN this afternoon.  Mentioned that his numbers as a defender were already elite and that he was tracking along a similar path as Rance in his youth.  

    Love to see him in the red and blue.

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    • Like 6
    2 hours ago, hells bells said:

    For what it's worth Glenn Luff (champion data) and David King gave Lever a huge rap on SEN this afternoon.  Mentioned that his numbers as a defender were already elite and that he was tracking along a similar path as Rance in his youth.  

    Love to see him in the red and blue.

    Pretty sure they said similar things about Tommy Mac last year.

    I take what these 2 say with a grain of salt...

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    • Like 4
     
    2 hours ago, hells bells said:

    For what it's worth Glenn Luff (champion data) and David King gave Lever a huge rap on SEN this afternoon.  Mentioned that his numbers as a defender were already elite and that he was tracking along a similar path as Rance in his youth.  

    Love to see him in the red and blue.

    agree. Offer 5 year deal $2.5mil and see if the Crows try to match it.  Worth 1st and 2nd picks in exchange for Lever and Crows 2nd rounder.

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    4 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

    Worth 1st and 2nd picks in exchange for Lever and Crows 2nd rounder.

    At the very least. Would be willing and happy to give up our 1st and 2nd round picks for him.

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    9 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

    agree. Offer 5 year deal $2.5mil and see if the Crows try to match it.  Worth 1st and 2nd picks in exchange for Lever and Crows 2nd rounder.

    We're gonna need to offer more than $500k per year to get him out of Adelaide. With the new CBA and salary cap increase, he'd be looking at $700k+ a year.

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    • Like 2
    8 hours ago, Wunders said:

    I'm not sure, if he averages 20 disposals a match id say 400k for 2 years is acceptable from Adelaide (but as there is interest 500k to keep him more like it). E.g. Daniher is only on 750k. But if hes as good as we think, then i'd offer our first round pick (8-14) and above what Adelaide offers (500-700k).

    But there are other things at play:

    • Gibbs to Adelaide - yes/no
    • McGovern to WestCoast yes/no
    • What he actually wants to do (we have no idea - atm his manager is being smart and saying await finalisation of CBA).

    Any of these will influence their salary cap and ability to keep him. Happy with whatever outcome occurs.

    Agree with everything you say but if he nominates Melbourne (or any other club for that matter) history suggests the trade will be done in the end regardless but possibly not independent of other trades.

    Ed: will the fact we were wanting to draft him with the Trengove to RFC pick hold any sentiment for him to choose us?

    Can only hope.

    Edited by McQueen

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    • Like 2

    The thing is, it's all very well to talk about the size of defenders right now and Lever is right in the middle of the field (and taller than I thought), but it doesn't address the issue.  A few weeks ago BEN BROWN tore us apart.  Now he's an ok player, but he's no Wayne Carey.  In round six, Joe Danniher kicked six straight points before his one goal.  That could easily have been a seven goal haul to win them the game. Darcy Moore isn't there yet, but he's a mobile 201cms.  GWS have Patton at a shortish 198cm and Lobb floating in at 207.  Port have Dixon and the Hoff at 2m+ and Ryder chipping in at just shy of 2m.  Boyd at the Doggies is 2m.  Even Brisbane have Schache (for now) at 199 and Hipwood at 202.  These guys stretch their arms up and we have nobody short of Max Gawn who has a chance of getting a fist to the ball.  We need to get pro-active and try to find a solution.  Maybe that means grabbing an American Basketball reject and training them to spoil or converting a spare ruck (like we have one). 

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    On 02/06/2017 at 1:46 AM, RalphiusMaximus said:

    The thing is, it's all very well to talk about the size of defenders right now and Lever is right in the middle of the field (and taller than I thought), but it doesn't address the issue.  A few weeks ago BEN BROWN tore us apart.  Now he's an ok player, but he's no Wayne Carey.  In round six, Joe Danniher kicked six straight points before his one goal.  That could easily have been a seven goal haul to win them the game. Darcy Moore isn't there yet, but he's a mobile 201cms.  GWS have Patton at a shortish 198cm and Lobb floating in at 207.  Port have Dixon and the Hoff at 2m+ and Ryder chipping in at just shy of 2m.  Boyd at the Doggies is 2m.  Even Brisbane have Schache (for now) at 199 and Hipwood at 202.  These guys stretch their arms up and we have nobody short of Max Gawn who has a chance of getting a fist to the ball.  We need to get pro-active and try to find a solution.  Maybe that means grabbing an American Basketball reject and training them to spoil or converting a spare ruck (like we have one). 

    Who exactly are the gigantic american basketball defender equivalents that combatted these players and delivered premierships for the Dogs and Hawks over the past few years? I don't recall Franklin, Reid, Tippet, Patton, Lobbe having much influence in last years games against the Dogs? Boyd won the Dogs their premiership playing the Gawn ruck role, not as a forward with long arms. All games are won in the midfield, Getting pro-active would be looking at bringing in a 200+cm forward to add to the dynamic, not throwing a Mason Cox in defence. Max Gawn can drop back in defence as a ruckmen, anything else would sacrifice our speed and agility.

    I don't see any gigantic defenders running around for Adelaide, GWS, Geelong or the Dogs right now. They do have 196cm defenders though. Maybe we'll have to wait and see how good Joel Smiths leap is in defence and whether we can use him to advantage if we do not land Lever or another.

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    • Like 6

    8 hours ago, rjay said:

    Pretty sure they said similar things about Tommy Mac last year.

    I take what these 2 say with a grain of salt...

    More a spoonful ;)

    Its just data ppl spruiking their wares.

    Lever is more than handy , you just have to observe. 

    Those folk that make a coin from snake oil mathematics have self interest at stake and is always handy for them to roll out whatever fits on the day.

    I quite like Lever....for HOW he plays. 

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    • Like 1

    I'm a believer in Champion Data stats and analytics. It stacks up. TMac is one of the best defenders in the league regardless of the criticisms Melbourne supporters have 

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    • Like 2

    If we weren't to get Lever or May, could we go for someone like Eric Mackenzie as a fall back option?

    Edited by In Gawn we Trust

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    12 minutes ago, In Gawn we Trust said:

    If we weren't to get Lever or May, could we go for someone like Eric Mackenzie as a fall back option?

    Might depend on whether we  are looking short term or longer term

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    • Like 1
    • Author
    57 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

    I'm a believer in Champion Data stats and analytics. It stacks up. TMac is one of the best defenders in the league regardless of the criticisms Melbourne supporters have 

    Defensively speaking, yeh, champion data will show that he is clearly in the top 5. He is a wonderful defender.

    The criticism comes from his kicking and decision making with ball in hand. And it's warranted. I don't need champion data to tell me that.

    The fact that improvement in this part of his game can barely be seen is the reason supporters get upset.

    It's totally understandable.

     

    Edited by stevethemanjordan

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    • Like 2

    9 hours ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

    The thing is, it's all very well to talk about the size of defenders right now and Lever is right in the middle of the field (and taller than I thought), but it doesn't address the issue.  A few weeks ago BEN BROWN tore us apart.  Now he's an ok player, but he's no Wayne Carey.  In round six, Joe Danniher kicked six straight points before his one goal.  That could easily have been a seven goal haul to win them the game. Darcy Moore isn't there yet, but he's a mobile 201cms.  GWS have Patton at a shortish 198cm and Lobb floating in at 207.  Port have Dixon and the Hoff at 2m+ and Ryder chipping in at just shy of 2m.  Boyd at the Doggies is 2m.  Even Brisbane have Schache (for now) at 199 and Hipwood at 202.  These guys stretch their arms up and we have nobody short of Max Gawn who has a chance of getting a fist to the ball.  We need to get pro-active and try to find a solution.  Maybe that means grabbing an American Basketball reject and training them to spoil or converting a spare ruck (like we have one). 

    I actually think it's more to do with the team defence the the individual defenders themselves.

    If our forwards and midfield make it hard for the other side to progress the ball down field, or at least slow it down, then it makes it hard for the tall forwards.

    The reason those guys have scored so much is that we often leak easy goals due to the press. 

    This is more an issue with learning and implementing the game plan than personal.

    That said, if we can lure a Lever or May we should definitely do so as quality talls don't grow on trees!

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    • Like 1
    1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

    Might depend on whether we  are looking short term or longer term

    Yeah fair point, I feel as though if we got him it would give Omac a little bit more time to develop and not get given the burden of defending the main forward every week. However I guess experience is the only thing that will help him in the long run.

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    • Like 1
    • Author
    10 hours ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

    The thing is, it's all very well to talk about the size of defenders right now and Lever is right in the middle of the field (and taller than I thought), but it doesn't address the issue.  A few weeks ago BEN BROWN tore us apart.  Now he's an ok player, but he's no Wayne Carey.  In round six, Joe Danniher kicked six straight points before his one goal.  That could easily have been a seven goal haul to win them the game. Darcy Moore isn't there yet, but he's a mobile 201cms.  GWS have Patton at a shortish 198cm and Lobb floating in at 207.  Port have Dixon and the Hoff at 2m+ and Ryder chipping in at just shy of 2m.  Boyd at the Doggies is 2m.  Even Brisbane have Schache (for now) at 199 and Hipwood at 202.  These guys stretch their arms up and we have nobody short of Max Gawn who has a chance of getting a fist to the ball.  We need to get pro-active and try to find a solution.  Maybe that means grabbing an American Basketball reject and training them to spoil or converting a spare ruck (like we have one). 

     

    All of these concerns are a non issue if your team possesses the following:

     

    - A competent key defender who can combat a disadvantage in height with strong body work and a really competitive and hard edge to the way they play. (Rance, May, McGovern). None are above 196cm

    - A two-way running midfield who consistently provide pressure on the opposition's quality of forward 50 entries.

    - A ruckman who is willing to run defensively, sit in the hole when required and be that tall that you're talking about.

     

    If you get those three things right, the opposition are going to have a very tough time marking anything inside 50. No matter the size of the forward. 

    Part of why we're missing Gawn is for his ability to defend as that extra key defender at times. But we'll soon have him back. I think our midfield has generally been pretty good at disallowing really easy forward 50 entries. (Compared to the last few years anyway). We can always improve.

    And I would say it's our key defenders that have been the weakest link at present. Oscar doesn't cut it, Frost is still learning and T-Mac has been wildly inconsistent.

    Edited by stevethemanjordan

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    •  
    10 minutes ago, In Gawn we Trust said:

    Yeah fair point, I feel as though if we got him it would give Omac a little bit more time to develop and not get given the burden of defending the main forward every week. However I guess experience is the only thing that will help him in the long run.

    I agree. Despite my frustrations Omac may well morph into a handy regular defender. I think hes better off  developing as opposed struggling. A Mackenzie type would provide a fillip but i still see what he would bring and what Omac might provide as different roles.

    If we are indeed (as a club) seeing the FB role being an inhouse development ( whoever it may be ) then a fillip is ideal. If our strategy requires a FB player outright then Id definitely look a Lever.

    Taylor and Co seem good at finding players. Will be interesting to see where we go on this .

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    2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

    I'm a believer in Champion Data stats and analytics. It stacks up. TMac is one of the best defenders in the league regardless of the criticisms Melbourne supporters have 

    Champion Data annoy the hell out of me when they try to predict using their data.

    Their expertise is in telling us what has happened by their numbers....

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