43 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Yes, I do.  Perhaps driven by not having a Fagan nor a CEO in place at draft time, to harness Clarkson's impetuosness. But consulting the leadership group has been a basic tenet of that club until this draft period.

Clarkson has the runs on the board to be unilateral.  Goodwin does not. 

I will be over the moon if Goodwin is the coach we are all hoping he will be.  But for mine he needs to earn the stripes and I'm not sure he has, yet.

Btw, before they won their first flag in 2008 (before he had runs on the board) Clarkson famously made a "Captain's call" on draft day by recruiting Stuart Dew and overruling the list manager.

So I'm not sure your assertion re Hawthorn stands up to scrutiny.

Edited March 21, 20178 yr by ProDee

24 minutes ago, Night Crawler said:

Just a little rumor I heard from a source close to the club. 

Goodwin was originally planning to have Jones as sole captain. Jones started to play really well in the round of golf and looked like being the first player to beat Goodwin.

Goody has a great relationship with the boys and knew that Nath doesn't get phased by a normal sledge. He threw the Viney Co-Captain at him and Jones cracked the sads.

2 double bogeys from Chunk and Goody remains unbeaten in golf. Just shows what a great coach he is. He knows how the boys tick.

By god I hope you are right, but it doesn't sound like a way to motivate someone to me. Especilly someone who didn't seem to need motivating in the first place.    Or were you being ironic?

57 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/jack-vineys-promotion-to-melbourne-demons-cocaptaincy-was-coachs-call-20170321-gv3an0.html

Definitely a captain's call by Goodwin.

Telling the leadership group and the incumbent captain after he made the decision is quite different to how top clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong operate. 

Huge accolades to Jones for how he has moved forward from the deflating news.

So what?  We have to do everything like Hawthorn and Geelong?

Times change and clubs are different in their approach.  Just because a club does it one way doesn't mean we need to as well.  

Nathan Jones is a big boy - he was disappointed at first, but clearly got over it pretty quick.  If he can get over a decision that affects him so quickly then we can too.  I don't get the worry or problem with this at all.

23 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Btw, before they won their first flag in 2008 (before he had runs on the board) Clarkson famously made a "Captain's call" on draft day by recruiting Stewart Dew and overruling the list manager.

So I'm not sure your assertion re Hawthorn stands up to scrutiny.

I respect your view Pro Dee but I'm too tired too spar with you because if I do we will go round in circles.  

Good evening.

18 minutes ago, sue said:

By god I hope you are right, but it doesn't sound like a way to motivate someone to me. Especilly someone who didn't seem to need motivating in the first place.    Or were you being ironic?

It was a joke Sue. 

My friends laughed when I told them I was going to become a comedian. They're not laughing now.

8 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Why couldn't they interview Brock McLean instead?

Interesting CB; your comment prompted me to check him out on line.  His LinkedIn profile could not be more different to what I was expecting.

7 minutes ago, Salems Lot said:

Interesting CB; your comment prompted me to check him out on line.  His LinkedIn profile could not be more different to what I was expecting.

He's not driving tanks?

3 hours ago, Dante said:

I expressed concerns about a couple of things that Goodwin has done, some of the ones you've expressed above and was accused of talking drivel, now we have the Jones captaincy issue which is disrespectful of Jones, imo.

McCartney said he lost the players by changing his methods when he became senior coach, hope Goody doesn't fall in to the same trap.

 

Yes I did not understand the Viney promotion at all. Hopefully all wounds have healed but why inflict them in the first place? Make Viney sole VC to Jones, he is just a kid, Jones is a senior and solid citizen of the club. What do we gain by this versus what do we risk? Good god we have been here before in the previous regimes. I have some reservations about this decision and the Watts saga. It will be interesting to observe how this plays out. 

I'm not keen on co-captains and nor am I keen on Spencer playing, but I won't be critical of Goodwin or second guess his every move for one simple reason, HTF would I know what the best decisions for the MFC are ?   I'm a rank amateur, who isn't in the inner sanctum and is completely guessing from afar. 

It would be incredibly arrogant of me to think I know more than the bloke who's privy to everything I'm not.  Thankfully I'm not arrogant

7 hours ago, Josh said:

My wife reckons she would leave me for Jonesy but I can't see it. She also reckons Dean Kent. I suppose I have a similar build...

 

 

 

 

Mate, I'm battling Bernie V - I've got no hope!

15 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I'm not keen on co-captains and nor am I keen on Spencer playing, but I won't be critical of Goodwin or second guess his every move for one simple reason, HTF would I know what the best decisions for the MFC are ?   I'm a rank amateur, who isn't in the inner sanctum and is completely guessing from afar. 

It would be incredibly arrogant of me to think I know more than the bloke who's privy to everything I'm not.  Thankfully I'm not arrogant

Pro your's is a quite logical response to these concerns. However I remember thinking much the same in the Schwab era when they got rid of Junior and Bruce and later on we saw the Grimes and Trengove co capitancy decision sacrifice two careers. Each time I said to myself the MFC full time professionals must know better than me and my negative thoughts. However unfortunately my ignorant predictions came to fruition back then and we nearly destroyed the club. 

 Let's hope this time some questionable MFC decisions actually will raise standards! 

4 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

Pro your's is a quite logical response to these concerns. However I remember thinking much the same in the Schwab era when they got rid of Junior and Bruce and later on we saw the Grimes and Trengove co capitancy decision sacrifice two careers. Each time I said to myself the MFC full time professionals must know better than me and my negative thoughts. However unfortunately my ignorant predictions came to fruition back then and we nearly destroyed the club. 

 Let's hope this time some questionable MFC decisions actually will raise standards! 

I'll at least give him the grace required before judging.  

We'll all know the quality of his decisions in the fullness of time and he'll be judged accordingly.

36 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I'm not keen on co-captains and nor am I keen on Spencer playing, but I won't be critical of Goodwin or second guess his every move for one simple reason, HTF would I know what the best decisions for the MFC are ?   I'm a rank amateur, who isn't in the inner sanctum and is completely guessing from afar. 

It would be incredibly arrogant of me to think I know more than the bloke who's privy to everything I'm not.  Thankfully I'm not arrogant

I can't see the value in playing out club issues in public, I'm sure Goodwin would have known that allowing players to answer questions about Watts ommision was going to cause a stir. If he wants to put pressure on Jack he should do it on the track, not in the HUN.

If he wanted to get a three time B&F captain off side, the best way to do it is to tell him over a golf game that he was no longer sole Captain. The question is, why? Jack V was going nowhere, he should have been told he would be captain in due course, this just doesn't make sense. 

The Trenners no play appeared to be an insult and even if it wasn't, perceptions are everything, they played 23 so it wasn't as if they wanted strict match day conditions. 

He may be a good coach, I hope so and I desperately want him to succeed, but I'm not impressed with his handling of these issues so far. He may have his reasons but I don't have to agree with them. 

He hasn't coached a game yet.

The coach is the new Jack Watts.

Edited March 21, 20178 yr by jumbo returns

4 minutes ago, Dante said:

I can't see the value in playing out club issues in public, I'm sure Goodwin would have known that allowing players to answer questions about Watts ommision was going to cause a stir. If he wants to put pressure on Jack he should do it on the track, not in the HUN.

If he wanted to get a three time B&F captain off side, the best way to do it is to tell him over a golf game that he was no longer sole Captain. The question is, why? Jack V was going nowhere, he should have been told he would be captain in due course, this just doesn't make sense. 

The Trenners no play appeared to be an insult and even if it wasn't, perceptions are everything, they played 23 so it wasn't as if they wanted strict match day conditions. 

He may be a good coach, I hope so and I desperately want him to succeed, but I'm not impressed with his handling of these issues so far. He may have his reasons but I don't have to agree with them. 

No problem, but I don't agree with your concerns.

Internally, footy clubs are the most honest institutions around, so it's not surprising a bit spills out when players are specifically queried about a senior player and his non-selection.  Supporters want transparency, but seemingly only when it suits them.  If Watts came back with the right mindset we wouldn't be discussing him.  If Jack doesn't want pressure perhaps Jack could have handled his preseason differently.  He should google the term "personal responsibility".  A novelty no doubt in this self-entitled age.

As for Jones ?  Goodwin makes decisions he deems to be in the best interests of the MFC.  He can't not implement something he considers advantageous to the club because he'll get a "three time Best & Fairest off side".  I'd have zero respect for him if he couldn't make a hard call based on that criteria.  If it's a mistake it's a mistake, but your reasoning is as soft as butter.  It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense to you, or me, it makes sense to Goodwin, i.e. the leader.  Co-captaincy is the structure he wants.  He thinks it will fast track the communication with the young players, of which there are plenty, because Viney is a peer and Jones a generation away (in football terms).

Trengove "insulted" ?  Please.  Goodwin makes decisions on a "team first" basis and was obviously going to take an emergency in the 24.  Trengove was deemed to be that player.  Given a choice of staying in Melbourne or travelling with his mates and realising how close he's getting to breaking back into the best 22 I'm sure he jumped at the chance.  He would have known the situation before he boarded the plane and there was always the off chance he'd play if there was an injury before the game or early in the match.

It's fair to say I don't agree with a solitary assertion you've made.   

4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/jack-vineys-promotion-to-melbourne-demons-cocaptaincy-was-coachs-call-20170321-gv3an0.html

Definitely a captain's call by Goodwin.

Telling the leadership group and the incumbent captain after he made the decision is quite different to how top clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong operate. 

Huge accolades to Jones for how he has moved forward from the deflating news.

Agree with your last sentence Lucifer.

We have seen over the years what a resilient character he is.

Strong of character and loyal, A team and club man,

I suspect it says more about Jonesy than anyone else.

Sure it may be a media beat up, but I have little confidence in the people management skills of footy clubs. 

I am not sure if Melbourne is better or worse.

However, from what we know it sounds a rough way of communicating the news to a club legend regarding a questionable call in the first place. 

And the Watts saga also does not look good.

Different messages from a range of people, from coach to captain to players, all disseminating a view that has not been entirely clear or coherent. 

It has left more questions than answers and appears uncoordinated and unprofessional.

Again, I suspect it says more about Watts loyalty and conformity than the blokes calling the shots.

There are so many other aspects of the footy club that the MFC decision makers seem to have got right..  

I may be wrong, but the management of the Jones and Watts issues leaves me with an uneasy feeling. 

 

Edited March 21, 20178 yr by hemingway

11 minutes ago, ProDee said:

 

Internally, footy clubs are the most honest institutions around, so it's not surprising a bit spills out when players are specifically queried about a senior player and his non-selection.  Supporters want transparency................

 

As for Jones ?  Goodwin makes decisions he deems to be in the best interests of the MFC.  He can't not implement something he considers advantageous to the club because he'll get a "three time Best & Fairest off side".  I'd have zero respect for him if he couldn't make a hard call based on that criteria.  If it's a mistake it's a mistake, but your reasoning is as soft as butter....................

It's fair to say I don't agree with a solitary assertion you've made.   

"Most honest institutions around"....big call.  Based on what?  Institutions aren't honest, individuals are.  I've seen nothing in my life to suggest that footy clubs are any more honest than other large businesses.  Cultures are shaped by individuals and they then help create institutions.  

And "supporters want transparency"....big statement again.  I, for one, expect that senior leaders show respect and discretion in relation to the young men they are blessed to help shape.  Some issues are, in my mind and in my experience, best kept between those involved.

Jones has certainly done enough for the MFC to be treated respectfully and I agree that the circumstances of his finding out about the co-captaincy, if accurate, left a bit to be desired.  Players are entitled to be told honestly and sincerely about all relevant aspects of their game.  But, with respect.

I have no problem with Goodwin making the co-captain call but if the behaviour of players is subject to the oversight by the playing group (according to the Leading Teams model you seem to support so strongly), why would the structure of the captaincy be the coach's decision.  Consistent?

Goodwin is new to the role and with support and guidance may become a fine coach that leads us to great success.  This member of the jury will reserve his verdict until all the evidence is in.

ps I've made a deliberate spelling mistake(s) so you can 'sic' me again if you can find it/them.

Anyway, your original comment about JW's omission was accurate and timely.  Well done!

 

 

1 hour ago, jumbo returns said:

Mate, I'm battling Bernie V - I've got no hope!

Quite true - both my daughter and my wife fancy Bernie V - different perspective but same destination....

11 minutes ago, Jimcor2 said:

"Most honest institutions around"....big call.  Based on what?  Institutions aren't honest, individuals are.  I've seen nothing in my life to suggest that footy clubs are any more honest than other large businesses.  Cultures are shaped by individuals and they then help create institutions.  

And "supporters want transparency"....big statement again.  I, for one, expect that senior leaders show respect and discretion in relation to the young men they are blessed to help shape.  Some issues are, in my mind and in my experience, best kept between those involved.

Jones has certainly done enough for the MFC to be treated respectfully and I agree that the circumstances of his finding out about the co-captaincy, if accurate, left a bit to be desired.  Players are entitled to be told honestly and sincerely about all relevant aspects of their game.  But, with respect.

I have no problem with Goodwin making the co-captain call but if the behaviour of players is subject to the oversight by the playing group (according to the Leading Teams model you seem to support so strongly), why would the structure of the captaincy be the coach's decision.  Consistent?

Goodwin is new to the role and with support and guidance may become a fine coach that leads us to great success.  This member of the jury will reserve his verdict until all the evidence is in.

ps I've made a deliberate spelling mistake(s) so you can 'sic' me again if you can find it/them.

Anyway, your original comment about JW's omission was accurate and timely.  Well done!

 

 

Jim, if you hear players interviewed on radio, tv, or print you'll note that they are very transparent and brutally honest with each other within "their 4 walls".  Especially those with the leading teams model.

You don't think supporters want "transparency" ?  You're clearly new round here.

You're assuming Jones wasn't treated with "respect" because Goodwin decided a Co-captain was best for the club ?  Explain why he wasn't treated with "respect" due to this decision.

As for the Co-captain call ?  Sometimes a leader needs to have the courage to lead.  Goodwin made the call and he'll be judged in time accordingly.  I have no issue with a leader making a decision they felt worthy,

I like the Leading Teams model ? Quote me where I've insinuated this.  I have no clue how good it is or otherwise.  Looking forward to the quotes,

Everyone is on the jury re Goodwin and the verdict is out for everyone.  No revelations there.

I have no clue to your posting history or spelling errors you may or may not have made.  I'm not familiar with you (even though I may have responded to you).

Thanks re Watts.

13 hours ago, iv'a worn smith said:

Once again, headlines belie the truth of the story.  The Age headline says "Nathan Jones miffed by Melbourne Demons' captaincy move "  He was "disappointed" and "frustrated", but he clearly is accepting of it and looks ahead.   So, to err is human, but to express yourself is a cardinal sin?  Once again, just bad journalism.

Not surprising. Fairfax journalism lowered its standards years ago. Nothing but a tabloid these days.

You could see it coming though. And he played straight into their hands.

Let's hope he and Viney perform on Saturday. A bit of added pressure now I would have thought.

Edited March 21, 20178 yr by A F

12 hours ago, Demons1858 said:

There are some signs that Goodwin's decision making can be off the mark (even with a small sample).

1. Massive Viney fan but vice captaincy would have been better and captain way too early. Disrespectful to Jonesy

2. Taking past captain all the way to WA to sit on the pine. Disrespectful to Trenners

3. Handling of Watts situation could have been communicated more clearly at the beginning - still not 100% conviinced we know whats happepened there

4. Understand why playing Spencer is important so Max has the tank to make it through to the end of the year and finals, but not sure he is up to it

In your opinion, D1858. 

I could present an alternative case for each of those points that shows his decision making could be right on the mark. I'm not saying he's not off the mark, just that I think it's too early to tell.

For example, having been around the players for two years now, Goody would know (at least a lot better than us) what motivates each and every player. So he may well see Jones being able to elevate his game with Viney joining him. If his read on Jones is such, he may well feel that due to Jones' competitive nature, this will drive him to improve as a player and a captain.

Likewise, taking Trenners to WA could be seen as a "you're on the cusp, Trenners, keep working hard and improving your game, and you're thereabouts". Once again, his read on Trenners may well be that he's a tough resilient lad (from the outside this seems fair) and he just needs a little bit of encouragement to remind him he's on the right path. Making the extended bench is still better than nothing. Trenners becomes motivated to push even harder to win back his spot and Goodwin's a genius. Who knows?

As for point 3, you admit that you/we don't know what's happening. So to speculate that Goodwin's decision making could be off on that basis is pretty thin and I'd say poor.

And finally, point 4 is merely your opinion. IMO, Spencer is up to it in the right situation. Is the St Kilda game the right situation? Perhaps not, but as a foil, he's a C grader (and improving) that is better than Watts or Pedersen in the ruck and despite the claims of some, is actually pretty quick and can provide pressure at ground level. I'd prefer Kent at ground level, but I'd prefer Spencer in the ruck. Not to mention also, Spencer hasn't been selected yet, so maybe hold your horses on this one too.

Thanks for reading the post and discussing it. We can agree its still early on in the season and the. mfc list also looks great and I can see a promising year ahead on-field. Opinions sometimes backed by facts are what makes this forum.

However, your issue with point 3 has been misunderstood. The fact the watts issue hasn't been properly articulated by the club is why I am still confused. Its a poor communication issue. It should have been clearly communicated a long time ago

 

43 minutes ago, Demons1858 said:

Thanks for reading the post and discussing it. We can agree its still early on in the season and the. mfc list also looks great and I can see a promising year ahead on-field. Opinions sometimes backed by facts are what makes this forum.

However, your issue with point 3 has been misunderstood. The fact the watts issue hasn't been properly articulated by the club is why I am still confused. Its a poor communication issue. It should have been clearly communicated a long time ago

 

Why? You are only giving information out to opposition teams. 

Leadership is the ability to empower. That's it, really. There's no rule book that says you can only have one leader.

Ironically, Jones' handling of this situation embodies what it is that makes a leader a leader: a person that can stand up to scrutiny, face their fears and admit they were wrong. 

That we're criticising Goodwin for this suggests to me that the mental baggage reportedly hanging over the playing group is now firmly embedded in the minds of the support base.

Jones' initial disappoint would suggest he misinterpreted what it is to be a leader and captain. It is not about him. That he came to realise that it can work and that the role is bigger than him individually suggests that the decision to add Viney as co-captain has arguably made Jones a better captain and leader.

Edited March 21, 20178 yr by praha

Thank god the footy starts in one day.