Just now, Generation dee said:

Bingo! Could be oscar, Steve silvagni or the great Nathan Carroll back there, anyone is going to struggle defending when an opposition midfielder is on the counter and the forward has space. 

I must have missed a lot yesterday, of course he had some nervous moments, but I thought at times he linked up well, and killed a few contests as well. Fair bit to work with longer term.

I'm certainly not suggesting you did, as I thought he did quite well in a variety of situations (and got his hands on the pill 17 times).  There is plenty to work with for sure, but in my opinion he still needs to learn more of the craft at Casey where he is away from the spotlight.  I still think he has a bright future at the club.

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

I'm certainly not suggesting you did, as I thought he did quite well in a variety of situations (and got his hands on the pill 17 times).  There is plenty to work with for sure, but in my opinion he still needs to learn more of the craft at Casey where he is away from the spotlight.  I still think he has a bright future at the club.

Ideally we wouldn't have to play him yet, but with dunn appearing on the outer, jetta suspended and the club still not sure which way frost is heading, it was the only realistic choice. Still happy for him to get experience, he will learn a lot faster playing in the seniors than with casey- both positively and from his mistakes.

14 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

Playing as part of a backline unit, Oscar's team conceded less than 10 goals in a 10 goal win (where the inside 50s were 52 to 45). That suggests that the backline unit performed well. Also, given that the way defend has changed, defending as a team is important and the specific matchups aren't as important. 

In comparison, the last time Dunn played we conceded 20 goals from a similar number of inside 50s, and Dunn was shifted forward towards the end of the game.

The game has changed, and the chemistry of the defence is more important than the ability to defend one on one. Oscar is very mobile, reads the ball very well and generally makes good decision. He positions himself in dangerous spots and helps out his team mates well. 

The Brisbane talls (everyone, regardless of whether or not they were played as forwards today) combined to kick 1 goal. The two permanent tall forwards combined for 13 disposals in total. Oscar was part of that.

This is (predictably) a very poor thread.

The structure enabled Garland to play well in his role.

2 hours ago, mauriesy said:

 

I don't think we've reached that stage yet. Winning is great, but our window based on the age of our list opens in 2-3 years, and in the meantime development is still as important as winning.

 

IMO, that's garbage. The mentality of "winning isn't important" results in the following:

1. Senior players who have been brought up in a losing culture will lose their motivation and intensity as the year progresses. We went down this path under Bailey. How did that end?

2. We won't attract A Grade Free Agents like Hurley.

3. We won't attract A Grade out of contract players like Prestia.

4. It will make it more difficult to retain out of contract players like T. Mac, and to re-sign Hogan early.

Other clubs around the same mark as us and higher can make marked improvements with some key acquisitions. We don't have a 1st round pick in this years draft, so a low finish is of no benefit.

Look, I like our list going forward, but we need to be a destination club NOW. That means winning at all costs.

52 minutes ago, mo64 said:

IMO, that's garbage. The mentality of "winning isn't important" results in the following:

1. Senior players who have been brought up in a losing culture will lose their motivation and intensity as the year progresses. We went down this path under Bailey. How did that end?

2. We won't attract A Grade Free Agents like Hurley.

3. We won't attract A Grade out of contract players like Prestia.

4. It will make it more difficult to retain out of contract players like T. Mac, and to re-sign Hogan early.

Other clubs around the same mark as us and higher can make marked improvements with some key acquisitions. We don't have a 1st round pick in this years draft, so a low finish is of no benefit.

Look, I like our list going forward, but we need to be a destination club NOW. That means winning at all costs.

You said "winning is all that matters". I disagree. It is an overriding need, but with half the team playing less than 30 games, development is still critical. Hence the need to put time into players that the club deems to be a vital part of the future.

I have heard on a number of occasions that the club believes in the long run that Oscar will be better than Tom. The only way he is going to get there is by the right mix of physical development, sufficient exposure to senior football and learning the basics, most likely through Casey. Tom made his debut in his first year when he was relatively underdeveloped.

You run just as much risk of losing talent if good players pushing for selection are mired in the seconds for long periods. As for all the "attracting" players guff, anyone with half a brain can see the potential and future of our list, and how it's starting to come to fruition..

5 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

You run just as much risk of losing talent if good players pushing for selection are mired in the seconds for long periods. As for all the "attracting" players guff, anyone with half a brain can see the potential and future of our list, and how it's starting to come to fruition..

The most overused and overrated term in sport.  Players are attracted by teams with winning cultures not potential. We haven't developed a winning culture and in the past 4 weeks, our losses to the Saints and Dogs says more about us as a club than the wins over GC and Brisbane.

Winning is very important. This list is ready to learn and win

Potential is an easy way to do everything next year

Do it now...

5 hours ago, H_T said:

I was impressed with his pre-season form. He's obviously well liked within the club, and I dare say has the right character traits and belief that will establish himself as a regular over time. He's raw, green and is as keen as mustard to improve - much the same as his brother Tom came on after a few years in the system.

The premature calls for his head are ridiculous.

Agree on all counts. I cant see him being dropped this week. Another selection with the eye on both the future  and the now.

The future is about omac developing into one our key backs for the next decade.

The now is that in my view he plays zone defense better than dunn, which is no great knock on dunn given sonce becoming a defender he has played man on man. 

There was no better example of omac playing the zone well than the goal he saved in the last quarter when he was 1 on 3 (admittedly  aided by a crap lions kick), which pinged up the other end for a dees goal. 12 point play

5 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

You said "winning is all that matters". I disagree. It is an overriding need, but with half the team playing less than 30 games, development is still critical. Hence the need to put time into players that the club deems to be a vital part of the future.

I have heard on a number of occasions that the club believes in the long run that Oscar will be better than Tom. The only way he is going to get there is by the right mix of physical development, sufficient exposure to senior football and learning the basics, most likely through Casey. Tom made his debut in his first year when he was relatively underdeveloped.

You run just as much risk of losing talent if good players pushing for selection are mired in the seconds for long periods. As for all the "attracting" players guff, anyone with half a brain can see the potential and future of our list, and how it's starting to come to fruition..

Winning flags is what we want, we do what we need to do in order to win flags. Sometimes we will make a bad selection or lose a game, that is ok if in the end we reach the ultimate goal.

I WANT FLAGS, multiple flags, I want to be hated by all opposition clubs, I want to be arrogant like Hawthorn supporters, I want to be unhappy when we only win by 10 goals when it could have been 20. So sometimes we will make mistakes, I want that feeling that started in 1954. Seven grand finals in 7 years for Five flags!

            Premier                  Runner Up

1954	Footscray	Melbourne (2)	15.12 (102) d. 7.9 (51)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	80,897	25 September 1954
1955	Melbourne (7)	Collingwood (14)	8.16 (64) d. 5.6 (36)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	88,053	17 September 1955
1956	Melbourne (8)	Collingwood (15)	17.19 (121) d. 6.12 (48)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	115,803	15 September 1956
1957	Melbourne (9)	Essendon (9)	17.14 (116) d. 7.13 (55)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	100,324	21 September 1957
1958	Collingwood (13)	Melbourne (3)	12.10 (82) d. 9.10 (64)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	97,956	20 September 1958
1959	Melbourne (10)	Essendon (10)	17.13 (115) d. 11.12 (78)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	103,506	26 September 1959
1960	Melbourne (11)	Collingwood (16)	8.14 (62) d. 2.2 (14)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	97,457	24 September 1960

 

1 minute ago, ManDee said:

Winning flags is what we want, we do what we need to do in order to win flags. Sometimes we will make a bad selection or lose a game, that is ok if in the end we reach the ultimate goal.

I WANT FLAGS, multiple flags, I want to be hated by all opposition clubs, I want to be arrogant like Hawthorn supporters, I want to be unhappy when we only win by 10 goals when it could have been 20. So sometimes we will make mistakes, I want that feeling that started in 1954. Seven grand finals in 7 years for Five flags!

            Premier                  Runner Up

1954	Footscray	Melbourne (2)	15.12 (102) d. 7.9 (51)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	80,897	25 September 1954
1955	Melbourne (7)	Collingwood (14)	8.16 (64) d. 5.6 (36)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	88,053	17 September 1955
1956	Melbourne (8)	Collingwood (15)	17.19 (121) d. 6.12 (48)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	115,803	15 September 1956
1957	Melbourne (9)	Essendon (9)	17.14 (116) d. 7.13 (55)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	100,324	21 September 1957
1958	Collingwood (13)	Melbourne (3)	12.10 (82) d. 9.10 (64)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	97,956	20 September 1958
1959	Melbourne (10)	Essendon (10)	17.13 (115) d. 11.12 (78)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	103,506	26 September 1959
1960	Melbourne (11)	Collingwood (16)	8.14 (62) d. 2.2 (14)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	97,457	24 September 1960

 

Now that is a Football Club...

20 hours ago, #11-TonyAnderson said:

I thought he was very average for the first 3 quarters. Plenty of mistakes. Did a couple of better things in the last quarter. I think Frost or Pederson will be needed next week in the backline on Dixon or Westoff

For some reason which I can't understand, since he has been with MFC,   Pederson  has been quite ok as a forward/ fillin ruck but useless in defence

3 hours ago, ManDee said:

Winning flags is what we want, we do what we need to do in order to win flags. Sometimes we will make a bad selection or lose a game, that is ok if in the end we reach the ultimate goal.

I WANT FLAGS, multiple flags, I want to be hated by all opposition clubs, I want to be arrogant like Hawthorn supporters, I want to be unhappy when we only win by 10 goals when it could have been 20. So sometimes we will make mistakes, I want that feeling that started in 1954. Seven grand finals in 7 years for Five flags!

            Premier                  Runner Up

1954	Footscray	Melbourne (2)	15.12 (102) d. 7.9 (51)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	80,897	25 September 1954
1955	Melbourne (7)	Collingwood (14)	8.16 (64) d. 5.6 (36)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	88,053	17 September 1955
1956	Melbourne (8)	Collingwood (15)	17.19 (121) d. 6.12 (48)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	115,803	15 September 1956
1957	Melbourne (9)	Essendon (9)	17.14 (116) d. 7.13 (55)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	100,324	21 September 1957
1958	Collingwood (13)	Melbourne (3)	12.10 (82) d. 9.10 (64)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	97,956	20 September 1958
1959	Melbourne (10)	Essendon (10)	17.13 (115) d. 11.12 (78)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	103,506	26 September 1959
1960	Melbourne (11)	Collingwood (16)	8.14 (62) d. 2.2 (14)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	97,457	24 September 1960

 

And there were a few, Barass included, who were no good in 1953! Even the first half of '54 was ordinary. I haven't checked but I bet that half way through the year we were not in the 4. We finished the season well, squeezed into Finals in 4th place but then won two finals before being smashed in the GF by the Bulldogs. A couple of good players retired after the 54 year, to take up employment opportunities in the bush or interstate--I often wonder how they feel about that decision. And 2 years later the best rover in the comp, Stuart Spencer retired at the absolute peak of his form to coach in Tassie. Owning and running his own service station was a big incentive when you were limited to 10 pounds per week from footy at the highest level

7 hours ago, H_T said:

Bingo.

Are you really disputing that he is slow, fumbly, extremely one sided, fails to take the body in the contest and has average skills? There was one appaling effort where a Brisbane player ran into the goal square while he just stood there.

We are in serious trouble with key backs.

Dunn has lost any pace and agility he once had. To think he used to run with boomer.

Frost is an extremely average defender despite having many attributes which should make him a good one.

Pederson, I think would be our best bet, he has a decent kick on him at least, alt ough he likes to give 2m handballs for no reason.

Wagner is competing well in the air against taller players, but is so slow. I fear the Hawks game already with their half forwards, will have a day out unless things change. 

8 hours ago, Generation dee said:

Was at the game yesterday, Oscar was no where near as bad as some posters are making out. For a bloke playing his 4th game at 19, as a kpd, looks to have a solid future. 

 

No surprise to see some of the posters potting him here. The very same ones who just 14 quarters of football ago were saying petracca is a wasted draft pick. The very same posters who will look like even bigger fools when oscar has a consistent run of games and gets to 50-70 games experience. It just defies belief how there are still some wankpuffin posters on here who expect our young players to walk in and instantly be the finished product. 

I feel like I have to re-watch this game, because I agree. I was at the game and thought he made some errors but was pretty good.

12 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

I feel like I have to re-watch this game, because I agree. I was at the game and thought he made some errors but was pretty good.

Thoughts on this effort?

 

Seriously? That's your smoking gun? 

That, after trying to run back to turn a 2 v 1 into a 2 v 2, he didn't win the crumb against a midfielder in a 3 vs 2 contest?

If that's your evidence then you are really struggling to build a case.

16 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

Thoughts on this effort?

 

Yep, pretty ordinary.

Whether people like him or not, he is going to be given games because the club will probably move on from Grimes, Garland and Dunn in the next 24 months. He isn't ready, but the club will persist with him.

I agree he needs time at casey, but fast tracking the list's key position stocks may take priority over playing finals.

 

Furthermore, he was sprinting back from the wing after he had rushed up on Robertson to shut down an attack when Brisbane were out. It forced a turnover, after which Harmes turned it over in the corridor and Oscar was forced to run hard back to the goal square when the defence was caught out of position. He would have been stuffed after repeat long sprints to the wing and back, and it was actually good play when seen in the full context. Check out the replay .... it's at the start of the 3rd quarter.

18 hours ago, ManDee said:

 

            Premier                  Runner Up

1954	Footscray	Melbourne (2)	15.12 (102) d. 7.9 (51)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	80,897	25 September 1954
1955	Melbourne (7)	Collingwood (14)	8.16 (64) d. 5.6 (36)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	88,053	17 September 1955
1956	Melbourne (8)	Collingwood (15)	17.19 (121) d. 6.12 (48)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	115,803	15 September 1956
1957	Melbourne (9)	Essendon (9)	17.14 (116) d. 7.13 (55)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	100,324	21 September 1957
1958	Collingwood (13)	Melbourne (3)	12.10 (82) d. 9.10 (64)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	97,956	20 September 1958
1959	Melbourne (10)	Essendon (10)	17.13 (115) d. 11.12 (78)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	103,506	26 September 1959
1960	Melbourne (11)	Collingwood (16)	8.14 (62) d. 2.2 (14)	Melbourne Cricket Ground	97,457	24 September 1960

 

1956 Melbourne beat Collingwood by 12 goals in front of 115,000 at the G. How good would have that been? And it made it two years in a row over the Pies. Can only dream of such things

I grew up watching that era of great Melbourne teams, The 1960 grand final was the best because the weather was dreadful and we kept Collingwood to a record low score for a Grand Final, I think Collingwood kicked it first score a goal in the second quarter and finished up kicking 2 points in the last quarter.

On 22/05/2016 at 9:50 AM, stevethemanjordan said:

Sometimes I feel like you just spit out anything you hear the club say in a presser/interview because you think it's relevant.

It is glaringly obvious that we conceded goals in the manner that you just described, as all clubs do.

Does it mean that goals are in no way conceded from sub-par defending, an inability to kill a ball in a spoil, weak body-checking, dumb play and turnovers from the back-line also?

No.

It doesn't.

But thanks for pointing out the obvious.

He is a young player still developing, the only way to get experience at AFL level is to play at AFL level, obviously the Footy Dept thought this was the perfect game to expose Oscar to AFL level again      some on here are wetting their pants at the thought of getting Hurley, have a look at some of his early games, you would have had him delisted if he was at MFC then, which is par for the course for you       Oscar did ok, yes he made mistakes but he is part of a defensive unit that will get better collectively and individually the more games it plays together     

18 minutes ago, durango said:

I grew up watching that era of great Melbourne teams, The 1960 grand final was the best because the weather was dreadful and we kept Collingwood to a record low score for a Grand Final, I think Collingwood kicked it first score a goal in the second quarter and finished up kicking 2 points in the last quarter.

 

18 minutes ago, durango said:

I grew up watching that era of great Melbourne teams, The 1960 grand final was the best because the weather was dreadful and we kept Collingwood to a record low score for a Grand Final, I think Collingwood kicked it first score a goal in the second quarter and finished up kicking 2 points in the last quarter.

I think Collingwood only kicked 2.7 altogether that day.

It must have been mortifying for the Mudpie supporters. Some revenge for the '58 debacle. Should have been 5 flags on the trot.

19 hours ago, mo64 said:

The most overused and overrated term in sport.  Players are attracted by teams with winning cultures not potential.

19 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Winning is very important. This list is ready to learn and win

Potential is an easy way to do everything next year

Do it now...

Do you even know the meaning of the word 'potential'?

It means "having qualities and abilities that will lead to future success".

Are you telling me we haven't got 'potential'? I would have thought it's the very thing we are now showing in spades.

It's not mutually exclusive with a winning culture.

23 hours ago, mauriesy said:

That's probably because the 'midgets' weigh more than Oscar McDonald. At the start of the season, Oscar was listed at 82kg, some considerable kilos less than players like Rich, Bastinac and Pearce and Bewick.

Freeman, for example, had 14kg on Oscar yesterday, plus a couple of centimetres. Tom Bell had 16kg. I heard a player from another club on the radio yesterday saying that in order to comfortably play as a key defender, he had added 16kg to his frame over the 5 years since he had been drafted. Tom McD is about 12kg heavier than Oscar with the extra 4 years experience.

Oscar therefore is a rangy, tall defender who needs some time to build an AFL-ready body. At the same time, some AFL level experience, combined with consolidation for periods at Casey, will benefit his development. Yesterday was a perfect match to give him some time.

I don't think we've reached that stage yet. Winning is great, but our window based on the age of our list opens in 2-3 years, and in the meantime development is still as important as winning.

Look at some of our team before yesterday and the number of games they've played:

Hogan 28
Petracca 3
Oliver 6
Stretch 14
Newton 15
Michie 20
Oscar Mc 3
Hunt 5
Neal-Bullen 11
Wagner 6
Harmes 16

That's half the team that has played less than 30 games. All 11 combined have a tally the same as Jack Watts, and about 25% of Brent Harvey's! I thought yesterday was a good result given the age dimension. My thinking is not only 'in the now' but two years down the track when all these players have added 30-40 games to their experience.

I don't know what everyone expects from players so young, but I expect them to make some mistakes. I'm not making excuses, because our season so far has been terrific, but let's be realistic.

Oscar was listed at 94 kilos in the MFC season guide, not 82, the mfc website never update weight