1 hour ago, nutbean said:

sorry...but really  - that it was you assumed ???? You really believe that the game plan changed from Goodwin to Roos ??? 

The short answer is that is not the game plan  - and we did not bomb it for 1 and half quarters last week.

There is nothing wrong with bombing it in long as you do it very quickly and to the advantage side of a player - that gives you a better than even chance in a one on one contest. 

However thats not what we have been doing  - we were slow and reactive and bomb it in long to a crowded forward.

You did note on Saturday that our uncontested possession was down 100 ! ( that was not evident in the NAB challenge) - we were almost even in the contested possession. That tells you we were ok in the contest but the minute we got the ball no one worked hard enough to make space. No worked to get free on the outside. We were lazy.

There is a marked step up from NAB to the real McCoy of home and away - and for 6 quarters either teams did not let us play the way we want to or we simply did not play the way we wanted ( on Saturday I suspect the later). 

I feel sorry for any forward the way the ball is coming in. However there is nothing incorrect in the article by Lloyd on Hogan and Jesse's body language and some of his efforts were poor during the NAB challenge as well.

 

Spot on 'nut', the EFC boys bombed some forward to Daniher and they were quick and to his advantage.

We were slow to kick and bombed to a pack and absolutely not to advantage...just pure luck if he grabbed one of them.

I agree Lloyd makes quite a few valid points that most of us see, it maybe his conclusion that we doubt. We are unlikely to win again north so why no experiment. Weiderman to the forward flank. Garlett at ff and tracca as forward pocket. Watts at CHF. Hogan at CHB with Frost at FB. Both frost and Hogan will be running straight at the ball and Hogan will certainly have to do more than just look at his hands and the umpire if he does not mark it. At CHB he will need to attack the ball all day long which is what we want to see. He is a good kick, though he is usually a little slow to move it on from a mark. I think time in the backline may help him get some touches,. after all we can expect the ball to be down the backline more often than our forward line. Rest of the players just many up and play with passion.

7 minutes ago, Juicebox said:

 

People say the MFC has lost the trust of it's supporters and that is just so true.

 

As much as i love PJ, he too continually refers to Melbourne supporters having a victim mentality and that we need to shed it.

I'd counter, the reason why we continue to have such an outlook is not because of the past, but because of the present and the continual sh!t efforts that are perpetually given. We are yet to win 2 games in a row under both PR and PJ regime (alarming no matter which way you look at it), and the only times we look like we truly give a damn is after abhorrent losses. 

4 minutes ago, Deecisive said:

Hogan will certainly have to do more than just look at his hands and the umpire if he does not mark it

I'm sorry Deecisive, but i just had to quote you, as a "like" simply would not do this line justice!!!

Hogan isn't to blame for the loss. We were murdered in the middle and rarely had enough control of the footy to deliver the ball to Hogan in a way that presented him with an advantage in the contest. We bombed it in with a 2 on 1 or to a body on body contest. The only good delivery i saw to him was a kick from watts.

 

The whole team was crap. Not just Hogan.

2 minutes ago, Demon Disciple said:

As much as i love PJ, he too continually refers to Melbourne supporters having a victim mentality and that we need to shed it.

I'd counter, the reason why we continue to have such an outlook is not because of the past, but because of the present and the continual sh!t efforts that are perpetually given. We are yet to win 2 games in a row under both PR and PJ regime (alarming no matter which way you look at it), and the only times we look like we truly give a damn is after abhorrent losses. 

I think we are more than justified in having a 'victim mentality'. This club has just burned us that many times and for over such a long period of time that it's only natural to be so... Emotional? Angry? Both?

It looked like they had finally put together a team that was gunna have a genuine crack, every single game. That's what Roos promised us at the start of the year. So yeh, again, you damaged our trust on the weekend dees...

 

(sorry to drift from the hogan talk. I'm 2 beers down and venting like this is therapeutic.)

 

 

2 minutes ago, Adzman said:

Hogan isn't to blame for the loss. We were murdered in the middle and rarely had enough control of the footy to deliver the ball to Hogan in a way that presented him with an advantage in the contest. We bombed it in with a 2 on 1 or to a body on body contest. The only good delivery i saw to him was a kick from watts.

 

The whole team was crap. Not just Hogan.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Hogan is a cog in a bigger machine and that machine was broken on the weekend. But he, unlike others, is more important to the machine so if his output is less we are more likely to fail than someone like Matt Jones or Salem. 

3 hours ago, stuie said:

FFS. Read the article before commenting guys.

"I've watched him live the last two weeks and his body language has been horrific," Lloyd told AFL.com.au's Access All Areas.

"He's being so demonstrative towards his teammates.

"He's getting out-bodied (in marking contests), but he's not even trying. He's either having a go at umpires or he's having a go at his teammates.

"It's (Hogan's body language) that drastic and another week or two of that and they'll have no alternative but to send him back to the VFL."

Tell me, is he wrong?

Yes his body language is ordinary at times ( and , to a lesser extent, attitude to teammates) but he is only a kid and under a lot pressure. Richo copped the same criticism and did all right. Young Jack at Richmond worked through the same issues.

However he is frustrated - rightly. He was usually outnumbered and, IMO, frequently shepperded out of the contest unfairly. The delivery to Daniher was generally very good and appropriate to a player of his height. The delivery into our fifty was [censored]. Hogan needs to learn and improve - no doubt. However we did not give him fair opportunity on Saturday.

PS. Lloyd is simply chasing a headline. Great footballer - [censored] journo. 

3 hours ago, stuie said:

FFS. Read the article before commenting guys.

"I've watched him live the last two weeks and his body language has been horrific," Lloyd told AFL.com.au's Access All Areas.

"He's being so demonstrative towards his teammates.

"He's getting out-bodied (in marking contests), but he's not even trying. He's either having a go at umpires or he's having a go at his teammates.

"It's (Hogan's body language) that drastic and another week or two of that and they'll have no alternative but to send him back to the VFL."

Tell me, is he wrong?

He is not wrong but a good leadership group would seek to understand it and then work through with him what the team expects. He needs to be given the opportunity to rectify it. It must be frustrating being double and triple teamed and hung onto all the time In saying that he needs to take ownership of it by changing up his leads and positioning rather than getting Wingey and showing his frustration to his team mates and more so the opposition. 

5 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Yes his body language is ordinary at times ( and , to a lesser extent, attitude to teammates) but he is only a kid and under a lot pressure. Richo copped the same criticism and did all right. Young Jack at Richmond worked through the same issues.

However he is frustrated - rightly. He was usually outnumbered and, IMO, frequently shepperded out of the contest unfairly. The delivery to Daniher was generally very good and appropriate to a player of his height. The delivery into our fifty was [censored]. Hogan needs to learn and improve - no doubt. However we did not give him fair opportunity on Saturday.

PS. Lloyd is simply chasing a headline. Great footballer - [censored] journo. 

The headline is rubbish, he wouldn't have written that, but I agree with his fairly reasonable sentiment. To me, all he's saying is he's noticed it and it needs to be addressed, and if he can't sort it out at AFL level then he may have to at VFL level.

Totally agree the delivery has been terrible, but a good player will fight on, maybe move up the ground, and the last thing they'll do is sook it up and give up on applying pressure.

I'm not in panic mode about it, but I'd rather it be looked at now by the coaches than let it fester and eventually create division amongst the playing group. Just needs to redirect his "competitive beast" mode back towards the opposition and away from team mates and umpires.

I hated Lloyd as a player. Hated. But I don't actually mind him as a commentator, and the actual article he's written is pretty spot on, it's just whomever wrote the headline to make it sound more "sexy" that has done him a disservice.

4 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

He is not wrong but a good leadership group would seek to understand it and then work through with him what the team expects. He needs to be given the opportunity to rectify it. It must be frustrating being double and triple teamed and hung onto all the time In saying that he needs to take ownership of it by changing up his leads and positioning rather than getting Wingey and showing his frustration to his team mates and more so the opposition. 

I'm pretty sure that's all Lloyd is saying. It's a growing problem and should be sorted out by the coaches and leaders at the club before it becomes a big problem.

 

I'd play Hogan at CHB or in the ruck before I'd drop him. 

In fact the former might well be an option. No one works harder and competes better despite being out numbered than Drew Petrie. In fact it's pretty much North's game plan. Long down the line to Petrie who gives his all to bring it to ground where Harvey, Higgins and co swoop on it. 

If we aren't dealing with Hogan's issues seriously then our coaches are derelict, but I'd be shocked if dropping him is the right answer. He won us the game last week. His issues aren't so bad for that to be forgotten. 

CHF for the first half of this week. If it's all going terribly then put him to CHB and Tom McDonald to CHF for the 2nd half. 

Jesse Hogan was non-competitive in Saturday’s shock defeat by Essendon, says Dermott Brereton.

The former Hawthorn premiership great was critical of Hogan’s lack of pressure when the ball hit the ground and questioned whether Hogan was willing to concede other things when the going got tough.

“When the ball went on the deck 3-5 metres away from him he actually conceded he was non-competitive,” he said on SEN’s The Run Home.

“He doesn’t chase to lay a tackle, he’s got one tackle in the stats, and I couldn’t see when it happened.

Link here

4 minutes ago, stuie said:

Jesse Hogan was non-competitive in Saturday’s shock defeat by Essendon, says Dermott Brereton.

The former Hawthorn premiership great was critical of Hogan’s lack of pressure when the ball hit the ground and questioned whether Hogan was willing to concede other things when the going got tough.

“When the ball went on the deck 3-5 metres away from him he actually conceded he was non-competitive,” he said on SEN’s The Run Home.

“He doesn’t chase to lay a tackle, he’s got one tackle in the stats, and I couldn’t see when it happened.

Link here

He certainly isn't chasing with as much vigour as last year. 

I had my concerns as was loudly shouted down when I said I was worried about talk of bulking him up, particularly in light of other key forwards slimming down and given he apparently returned a touch out of shape.

Hmmm

13 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

He certainly isn't chasing with as much vigour as last year. 

I had my concerns as was loudly shouted down when I said I was worried about talk of bulking him up, particularly in light of other key forwards slimming down and given he apparently returned a touch out of shape.

Hmmm

He needs to make a statement this week. He'll be playing against a physically big mature team and he's had questions put to him now. How he responds will show us a lot about his character.

4 hours ago, stuie said:

FFS. Read the article before commenting guys.

"I've watched him live the last two weeks and his body language has been horrific," Lloyd told AFL.com.au's Access All Areas.

"He's being so demonstrative towards his teammates.

"He's getting out-bodied (in marking contests), but he's not even trying. He's either having a go at umpires or he's having a go at his teammates.

"It's (Hogan's body language) that drastic and another week or two of that and they'll have no alternative but to send him back to the VFL."

Tell me, is he wrong?

He isn't Stuie

There's the old saying "if it is to be it is up to me" is very applicable here. Also ....  "Attitudes are contagious - Is yours worth catching?".

I would rather see some "Dermy" style arrogance and strutting after a goal than what's going down at present.

He needs to turn his attitude/body language around quickly or he could derail his entire season (and potentially ours). I would still give him this week to try and improve things but that's about it if he decides to continue his "dummy spit" mode from the first 2 weeks this week. A stint in the magoos after that to relax and find his mojo (IF he doesn't fix it) wouldnt hurt IMO.

No one should be above and beyond the "Do it for The Team" / "One for all, all for one" mantra.

4 hours ago, old dee said:

And replace him with?

 

Hogan's attitude issue would have been addressed with him by the coaches last season and this season also.  Obviously he can't or won't listen as it appears to be getting worse.  The only thing in his favour to change  is his youth. However it will  be hard to continue tolerating this behaviour if his form does not improve. 

Arguably we can manage without him for a while.. Last season against Geelong which he missed for reasons  still unclear we put in our best performance in  nearly a decade. Long time since I saw our forward line clicking as well.

3 hours ago, Peter Griffen said:

I have mentioned on here before, my best friend is good friends with Jesse and i caught up with her this morning and she said he thinks he's " overthinking it" and forgetting to do the basic things well, getting a bit frustrated it's not happening for him while still understanding that's because he's not doing the basics like leading hard and so on. 

The coaches are telling him just keep it simple, try and get to as many contests as possible and try not to be outmarked, if he brings it to the ground it gives Jeffy a chance. 

we saw in the last quarter against the Giants how good a player he is, but you'll notice there, he is much better when the forward line isn't packed and we're delivering it to him not bombing it on top of his head. 

 

I would suggest he asks his coach/es for assistance from a top former ex forward to assist and guide him with his running/leading patterns, where to lead to and when (timing), doubling back towards goal and when to lead higher up the ground (ie., to read the play up the field and know when to lead/play a bit higher (50 meter area and beyond) in order to provide a marking option to a player under pressure around mid field or off HB.

I watched him closely on the weekend and he tends to be a little to "opponent" focused in my opinion. He wants to shake that opponent early as much as possible and try to break free with body work and early checking. That works fairly well at more junior levels and sometimes at AFL level also . But at AFL he is going to come up against some opponents who are just as powerful if not more powerful through the core than he is and in those matches he will need to vary his game and sometimes go to other weapons he has in order to be effective and win the day. There is also certain ways of pushing off an opponent that are more effective (body positioning etc). Having many options and reading the play, running the patterns with improved timing (etc) will keep his opponent guessing so he doesn't know what to expect next.

Certainly not saying he doesn't know or isn't trying some or all of these aspects of forward play effectively now and that the club isn't helping him but the assistance of a former great of the game with many years (and an old head) on him couldn't hurt. Even if he only learns a few things and adds 2 to 3 extra assets to his game. Every little bit helps.

I'm sure Dermy, Dunstall or Carey would be happy to go down and assist if he asked! Maybe even Lloydy himself. Just make sure he doesn't learn the art of staging off Matthew though... hated this part of his game! Was one helluva straight kick though, as was Dunstall. Dunstall was also amazing at using his body to work his opponent away from the drop of the ball and take a contested grab (clever use of the hips and a strong core).

58 minutes ago, stuie said:

He needs to make a statement this week. He'll be playing against a physically big mature team and he's had questions put to him now. How he responds will show us a lot about his character.

That's spot on Stuie. Young players sulk but I'm backing him in to show us what he can do.

It's being going on since the Intra-club game where Hogan was getting beaten by Dunn,anyone within 100m of him at Casey Fields would have heard him drop the 'F' word constantly that day.

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's being going on since the Intra-club game where Hogan was getting beaten by Dunn,anyone within 100m of him at Casey Fields would have heard him drop the 'F' word constantly that day.

Didn't know that. Don't have a problem with it as long as it comes with a determination to win the contest.

Matthew Lloyd is the last person who can criticise a player about bad body language. He is the biggest cry baby to play AFL.

Part of his development & maturity .. FFS expectation on a kid in his second year playing at FF is ridiculous!

People forget he actually was the reason we won the week before!  Plenty of other experienced players we can blame!

 

5 hours ago, america de cali said:

I would not be surprised if Hogan wants to be dropped. McCarthy at GWS walked out. Hogan perhaps trying a different approach maybe wants to be such a pain in the arse that there is no alternative but to send him on his way.

I reckon he's a better person than that.