14 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

Garland took two nasty 'hits' today and was limping around for some time, but like the gutsy, fully committed, reliable defender he is, he ran the game out and helped us mop up the spill time after time... rarely beaten 1 on 1, a true defender who puts his body on the line week after week for the cause!

Nasty hits? Haha.

They really can't have been that nasty. He reminds me of a soccer player sometimes the way he carries on after being 'hit'.

 

2 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Nasty hits? Haha.

They really can't have been that nasty. He reminds me of a soccer player sometimes the way he carries on after being 'hit'.

 

Unbelievable.

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Something I wish we had addressed in the off-season. Kicking skills and decision making in general from our back-six.

I will again go on record as saying Garland literally adds nothing to our back six currently. Today he offered nothing. Turned the ball over again, gave away free-kicks, wasn't nearly urgent enough, seemed to get what looked like a serious injury at least twice but within minutes was back to normal. He basically looks like a kid playing his first game such is the way he carries himself on-field. I honestly can't understand it. I'm baffled. Is there another excuse I'm missing as to why in both NAB challenge games he has been so incredibly underwhelming as a senior member of our back six? WTF.

McDonald competes hard but has a limited skill-level. In disposal namely. It's [censored] awful.

Lynden Dunn is another who just hasn't commanded the same presence since his stellar year at FB. 

I understand the club has prioritised adding talent and depth to the midfield but there are some other areas on our list that need addressing and our back-six have always been problematic in one way or another in my eyes.

Next year it's absolutely paramount we add some class to this list. Players who are composed with ball in hand. We have gone all out on contested ball winning mids but we lack class and composure on every line. 

 

 

 

I agree with most of that. Although I will say Vince to half back is a positive. He was rusty today but should improve. Salem we know about. Jetta and Dunn need to rebound more but they both use the ball smartly. They usually absorb pressure and release to free players, even if they aren't breaking the game open. 

Mitch White and Wagner are both options to take over as the third tall defender but it might take time. I'd throw Wagner in and live with it if Garland plays like he did today, but not if he played like he did last week. I do think there's a margin for a senior player to be a decent ordinary player and make the team better instead of stalling it. Needs to be the right player in the right position. 

If we got a Salem, Vince, Dunn, Jetta, Wagner/White backline up and running with proper midfield support and some workrate/class on the wings we might be on to something.

Which leaves us with McDonald needing to improve. His model should actually be Frawley at Hawthorn. A similarly gifted athlete with dodgy disposal. Frawley's disposal hasn't improved much at Hawthorn, he's just limited himself to bombing it long down the line or taking very safe sideways kicks.

Is anyone really surprised that our two key backmen in McDonald and Garland are the ones that have the biggest brain farts? They were key components of a backline that got bombarded week in, week out for 3-4 years. It's probably the hardest transition. They're probably so used to being under pressure, and over think every single little possession they get. Watts does the same thing. It might be something that can never be fixed. The gap between good and bad is colossal. McDonald sometimes reacts like as if he's under pressure when he's not, and as such, he fluffs the ball and turns it over. Then, when he does get used to the space, he loses all sense of vision and awareness and gets tackled. There's no in between. 

Ultimately, McDonald and Garland are remnants of a backline that survived and played through the club's worst ever era. Maybe we should loosen up on them a bit. It's hard to learn and improve when all you do is lose most weeks. They still play like losers because, well, they've never been winners. 

1 hour ago, thevil1 said:

People bringing Dunn into the equation or comparing other players within our structure are idiots. All NAB we have been experimenting others doing the kicking in, Dunn played about 20 minutes last week & hardly played as he had a groin issue this week. T Mac flat out cost us goals directly. Harmes did it too, but with T Mac it's becoming the norm. No point comparing players in different roles, how bout we look at how many other CHB's around the league butcher the ball as bad as Tom has been since the collingwood game when he got torn up by cloke in last year? I watch a fair amount of footy each week as I know a lot of you guys here do to, & the frustrating thing about Tom is for every good thing he does he kills us with his kicking. Weekly. Come on, which other CHB turns it over as often & as badly as Tom. 

Yes he can run all day & has shown he can be very very good defensively but he's been in a ba funk with the ball in his hands for a long time now. 

Which other teams CHB is surrounded with such incompetence?

Tom McDonald's problem is that both his decision-making and disposal is shockingly sub-afl level. What's worse is that since being drafted, he has barely improved on either of these qualities. 

He is massively overrated on this board.

I remember Frawley also attracting similar criticism on these pages... now he is swanning round with Manchester United.

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Nasty hits? Haha.

They really can't have been that nasty. He reminds me of a soccer player sometimes the way he carries on after being 'hit'.

 

He plays hurt often, he is much tougher than you give credit for. Love to see you cop one big man. 

It is frustrating that, after another pre-season, McDonald is still turning it over by foot on a regular basis. 

Not sure how that relates to Garland, but whatever.

Just needs to understand that with ball in hand, he's a very limited player, he needs to play accordingly, i reckon he's at his best when he just stops his opponent and takes the first easiest option every time, he needs to be smarter.

Some truly horrible kicks today, but let's remember he's only 23. Sometimes hard to judge by reality rather than expectation.

Has a similar work ethic to Nathan Jones, who also gradually improved his disposal and didn't really get it to AFL level until he was 25.

I feel like we forget how young some of these guys are because they were thrown into the fray straight up.

 

Certainly nowhere near as classy as Tom Hogan.

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree with most of that. Although I will say Vince to half back is a positive. He was rusty today but should improve. Salem we know about. Jetta and Dunn need to rebound more but they both use the ball smartly. They usually absorb pressure and release to free players, even if they aren't breaking the game open. 

Mitch White and Wagner are both options to take over as the third tall defender but it might take time. I'd throw Wagner in and live with it if Garland plays like he did today, but not if he played like he did last week. I do think there's a margin for a senior player to be a decent ordinary player and make the team better instead of stalling it. Needs to be the right player in the right position. 

If we got a Salem, Vince, Dunn, Jetta, Wagner/White backline up and running with proper midfield support and some workrate/class on the wings we might be on to something.

Which leaves us with McDonald needing to improve. His model should actually be Frawley at Hawthorn. A similarly gifted athlete with dodgy disposal. Frawley's disposal hasn't improved much at Hawthorn, he's just limited himself to bombing it long down the line or taking very safe sideways kicks.

As I've mentioned numerous times I didn't see the game so I'm not sure of the context surrounding McDonalds kicks. If he has Salem, Wagner and Vince around him you effectively remove the need for him to try and be creative. Leave him to do what he does best and that is play on and beat opposition key forwards. I remember when Roos first took over, the buzz phrase was "he plays his role", since when has it been the role of a CHB to be setting up play. Someone floated the idea of a Jones/Vince playing opposite Salem about a week ago and I shot the idea down, the more I think about it the more I like it.

1 hour ago, thevil1 said:

He plays hurt often, he is much tougher than you give credit for. Love to see you cop one big man. 

However would you know that? And to what degree? 

If they were indeed nasty hits and he truly was hurting, why the fark would he continue playing when it's NAB challenge? 

If there was any discomfort or lingering pain he would have sat the rest of the game out like any other player during practice games. Clearly, neither injury was bad.

Whether it's a decision against him, a goal conceded or a bump or 'hit', Garland loves to let the world know about it. 

End of discussion. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Demon Disciple said:

Tom McDonald's problem is that both his decision-making and disposal is shockingly sub-afl level. What's worse is that since being drafted, he has barely improved on either of these qualities. 

He is massively overrated on this board.

Luckily for Tmac he doesn't play on a back flank then.

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree with most of that. Although I will say Vince to half back is a positive. He was rusty today but should improve. Salem we know about. Jetta and Dunn need to rebound more but they both use the ball smartly. They usually absorb pressure and release to free players, even if they aren't breaking the game open. 

Mitch White and Wagner are both options to take over as the third tall defender but it might take time. I'd throw Wagner in and live with it if Garland plays like he did today, but not if he played like he did last week. I do think there's a margin for a senior player to be a decent ordinary player and make the team better instead of stalling it. Needs to be the right player in the right position. 

If we got a Salem, Vince, Dunn, Jetta, Wagner/White backline up and running with proper midfield support and some workrate/class on the wings we might be on to something.

Which leaves us with McDonald needing to improve. His model should actually be Frawley at Hawthorn. A similarly gifted athlete with dodgy disposal. Frawley's disposal hasn't improved much at Hawthorn, he's just limited himself to bombing it long down the line or taking very safe sideways kicks.

Agree here with the comparison of Frawley with McDonald. At Melbourne, Frawley was actually pushed to take the game on and run the ball out of the backline. It does sound like the coaches are trying to take advantage of the same thing with McDonald's athletic and running ability. However as you mentioned, at Hawthorn, Frawley is really just told to either kick it long down the line or find a short pass to a player with a better kick. I think this should be used with McDonald too. With the likes of Dunn, Jetta, Salem, hopefully White, he's got numerous options to find a player to help generate that attack from the backline. As mentioned, he should know his limitations and play to them. It is good to work on his deficiencies, but slowly and at times where his kick will turn into a direct goal, happened too many times last year. 

I think the ability to have efficient passages of attacking play from our backline has always been a limiting factor. With McDonald, Garland and Grimes in the past having the responsibilities to start the ball movement from defence, no wonder we were never a good transitioning team. It seems like the coaches are trying to rectify this by brining in specific types of players into the backline. White seems to have a very good left boot. Wagner was recognised as a decent kick coming out of the NEAFL. Having salem there, vince running through the backline also helps. 

Some harsh words here, remember our scores against have been 75 last week and only 60 this week. He is a very important part of a defense that has been O.k. All defenses turn the ball over occasionally when pressured hard enough, especially when the opposition man up the outlet players. 

Tom is very aggressive and a good strong physical player. He can work over an opponent and beat them consistently by the end of the game.  He is a bloke you can build a defense around.

As to his deficiencies we need to work as a team to limit them because in my eyes his strengths are very, very good.

Maybe Rawlings needs to be held more to account.

Vince did play back a bit today so he and Salem feeding off T-Mac could easily work ... Lumumba as well because of his dash. Jetta and Garland as well, even Dunn. Others like White and Grimes are options too.

T-Mac has no trouble winning the ball so any of our backmen could back themselves to sprint towards T-Mac when a contest looms and then run and receive a handpass if T-Mac wins the ball - it's not rocket science.

Other backmen (or those who are part of the today's massive midfield group) can cover for those who have run to create. 

Craig Bradley made an artform of doing the above at the Blues. Our half backs and other backs in the Northey and Daniher era's did the same (the Febey's, Lovell, Ward, Whelan, Wight, Walsh, Yze, AJ et al)

Meanwhile, T-Mac can work on his kicking technique along with a number of others who need work. I'm a great believer that decision making is related to kicking skills - they are not mutually exclusive to each other. 12 kicks and 6 handpasses today for Tom could have been 6 & 12 instead.

45 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

End of discussion. 

 

 

 

Promise? Good riddance. Your accusing Garland of staging is pathetic. He has always worn his heart on his sleeve, I wish more players on our list did the same over the past decade.

Someone noted Tom's age, and as frustrated as I am with him at the moment it's a reasonable point, he has time to turn it around. I hope he does sooner rather than later though, he plays a vital role in our structure & I really think sneaking into the finals is doable this year if things go well. 

Really worried about Tom too. His decision making is just not improving. He consistently bites off more than he can chew. I'm surprised to be honest, because I'd expect a coach like Roos to be all over a guy like this. He's continually failed to realise his limitations. It's bewildering that they let him keep doing it. It's as if they're telling him to keep backing himself in. If they are, it's dangerous. They need to treat him a bit like Zac Dawson. Just keep it really simple. Focus on what he's good at and make sure he's doing those things well. To me, he was playing within his limitations at the start of last year and then he was thoroughly beaten one week and he never turned it around again after that. He starts to take the game on too much after that.

3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Nasty hits? Haha.

They really can't have been that nasty. He reminds me of a soccer player sometimes the way he carries on after being 'hit'.

 

Not sure this is necessary Steve, but just about everything Garland did today resulted in a turn over.

Tmac is a terrible kick, never gets any height in the kick or penetration.

He should realise he undoes all his good defending by thinking he can kick the football.

The coaches need to point this out to him and modify his game accordingly.

However justified criticism might be, I find it hard to grumble about blokes in a backline which has had the ball coming in endlessly over and over during the last few years.  Let's hope they can improve disposal when the ball spends a bit more time up the other end.

11 minutes ago, sue said:

However justified criticism might be, I find it hard to grumble about blokes in a backline which has had the ball coming in endlessly over and over during the last few years.  Let's hope they can improve disposal when the ball spends a bit more time up the other end.

 This post would make sense if it was about Jimmy from the under 12's 'who's been struggling with his kicking but it's okay because he's been part of a back six that have really had a tough time recently'....

Supporters are unreal. Let's not demand more from an AFL player who has below average kicking skills because he's had a tough time playing in the backline the last few years.

6 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 This post would make sense if it was about Jimmy from the under 12's 'who's been struggling with his kicking but it's okay because he's been part of a back six that have really had a tough time recently'....

Supporters are unreal. Let's not demand more from an AFL player who has below average kicking skills because he's had a tough time playing in the backline the last few years.

and where did I state I don't expect more?