Frost has hardly played for a year, not surprising if he's a bit rusty. Nice goal in the last quarter ...

This thread was designed to take the heat of other players.

10 hours ago, Night Crawler said:

So he needs to work on his kicking at practice? You do realise that is exactly what he was doing on the weekend? His kicking is terrible. But its not going to get better unless he improves at training and then test it out in PRACTICE games. Sunday was not a good sign but at least he is working on it. Lets cool the jets until he does it in the main event.

Perfect practice makes perfect. Not just practice. The technique is still wrong. That's what worries many posters. Needs to guide the ball properly onto the boot and lose the high ball drop. Balance and technique are crucial.

It can be done. Russell Roberson fixed his kicking as did many others by pure hard work. The other alternative is to just handball like Todd Viney and Alistair Nicholson did!

I don't think Tom has terrible disposal. I think he has terribly inconsistent disposal. 

I rewatched the game in reverse ( I have no idea why). His first quarter was by far his worst in terms in disposal but most of his disposals were ok. He didn't make what I consider bad decisions - just executed poorly on 3 occasions ( which cost us dearly).

He is never going to have breath taking disposal but if he can be drilled to keep it simple ( and to have good runners near him taking the easy give) he will be fine.

My issue is that in context of real games, some turnovers can be very deflating and game changing. The "Bartram" effect. Clint Bartram's disposal was average - not always bad,  but he would manage to turn a ball over at the most crucial times that would take the wind out of the teams sails. There are turnovers and then there are BIG turnovers. As a CHB who likes to run and carry ( a good thing) and is quite attacking and rebounding ( also a good thing) his turnovers have the ability to really hurt us. 

He is a 23 year old work in progress  - I am sure these problems have not slipped his attention or the coaches.

I think we'd all be happy if he gave it off more. It's quite a common sight to have TMac taking off with the ball and a runner alongside him ready to receive it. But, he doesn't give it off, even when the player is a better kick and is in a clearly better position. 

Please Tommy, just give it to Bernie or Salem (or pretty much anyone). Pretty please.

Edited March 7, 20169 yr by Roger Mellie
Sp.

I hadn't watched the game before I read this thread......So when I finally sat down to watch it I was expecting to see McDonald completely stuff up and hardly get a touch.

What I saw was a very scrappy game in windy conditions.    I also saw a lot of clangers from some of our more skilled players.    I saw McDonald get nine possessions in the first quarter some were pretty bad turnovers some were to our teams advantage.....I saw some great intercept marks and saw him beat his opponents pretty much every time.

It lead me to a conclusion.......There will always be people out there who love to jump on players, there will always be whipping boys that for some reason people want to put down at every turn.

There were 3 or 4 times that his kicks hit the leading player but no one mentions those 

Every player on our list, has to, and needs to improve.   Not just Tom McDonald.  

10 hours ago, deespicable me said:

Gee some of you "Frost lovers" go back and have a look at your great full back hope in the first quarter when Minson (Frosts man) took a mark and kicked a goal. Frost although he was right with Minson lost body contact and was nowhere near spoiling Minson. In fact TMac who left his man got across and was the closest to spoiling him. How some of you guys put Frost in the same realm as TMac is unbelievable, he's not a chance to do anywhere near as good as TMac. You'd weaken the backline way too much. Frost is a fringe player at the moment competing with Pederson and Dawes for a spot in the team and probably third in line at that. And his disposal is probably worse than TMac. 

I saw that and thought the exact same thing. Actually thought it was a weak attempt by frost.

Without wishing to overly state what might be obvious but just about all of Tommies erroneous kicks were into the breeze. It was obviously part of some newly instilled strategy. Thing is anyone with nouse knows to keep kicks shorter harder and lower in this instance. This to me goes to decisions. His seem mightily off for a 6th season player. This concerns me.

1 hour ago, nutbean said:

I don't think Tom has terrible disposal. I think he has terribly inconsistent disposal. 

I rewatched the game in reverse ( I have no idea why). His first quarter was by far his worst in terms in disposal but most of his disposals were ok. He didn't make what I consider bad decisions - just executed poorly on 3 occasions ( which cost us dearly).

He is never going to have breath taking disposal but if he can be drilled to keep it simple ( and to have good runners near him taking the easy give) he will be fine.

My issue is that in context of real games, some turnovers can be very deflating and game changing. The "Bartram" effect. Clint Bartram's disposal was average - not always bad,  but he would manage to turn a ball over at the most crucial times that would take the wind out of the teams sails. There are turnovers and then there are BIG turnovers. As a CHB who likes to run and carry ( a good thing) and is quite attacking and rebounding ( also a good thing) his turnovers have the ability to really hurt us. 

He is a 23 year old work in progress  - I am sure these problems have not slipped his attention or the coaches.

Exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Thanks nut

12 hours ago, beelzebub said:

I got very frustrated with Jared Rivers. Great defender....murdered a ball.Didn't care when he went. I got very frustrated with Chip.....great defender ,master of the turnover. I didn't care when he went.

Please fix your disposals Tom..

This for me crystallizes the discussion around Tom. I have no problems with critiquing players but some of the comments in this thread knocking TMac are just plain silly, in particular the first one. The name of the thread set the tone IMO, i mean he needs to take a good look at himself? Please. 

BB you imply that if he fails to fix his disposal that like Rivers and Frawley you be'd be happy to see him go. That's crazy talk. As if we can afford to lose a key defender about to enter the prime of his career. Like Rivers and Frawley TMac would walk into a top 4 side average disposal skills or not. 

There is no doubt he shanked some kicks but he wasn't alone there, with both sides coughing the ball up and both missing shots from direct in front. The gola Tyson kicked form the boundary came from one of the biggest shanks on the full you will see. As WW said at the ground it was a very, very tricky wind that was strong to one end and swirled around quite a bit I watched the replay last night and the commentators were clueless about the effect of the wind.

Like a golfer with a poor technique TMac has a suspect technique that is exposed in the wind. Does that mean he shouldn't go for marginal kicks in a NAB game. Of course not and id be shocked if the coaches would accept him doing so. Watching the replay reminded me that he actually hit a a number of long crosses that set up attacking plays from the backline, which of course is what we need him to do. 

As some have noted (including Tony Shaw on the commentary) half  way through last season he ws looking like being selected for the AA team. If he can play to that level all this season then he is a huge chance of being an AA. Yet some would apparently be happy to see him go? Crazy.

Fortunately the club won't see it that way and will move heaven and earth to resign him.

  

2 hours ago, nutbean said:

 

My issue is that in context of real games, some turnovers can be very deflating and game changing. The "Bartram" effect. Clint Bartram's disposal was average - not always bad,  but he would manage to turn a ball over at the most crucial times that would take the wind out of the teams sails. There are turnovers and then there are BIG turnovers. As a CHB who likes to run and carry ( a good thing) and is quite attacking and rebounding ( also a good thing) his turnovers have the ability to really hurt us. 

McDonald alone caused three goals to the opposition as well as general turnovers which is the sole reason this thread was started. 

But the nuffies on here don't want a word of it and will resort to the same lines time after [censored] time...

'It's NAB challenge'

'We won'

'Other players missed targets'

It's a [censored] bore. Wake up.

Nobody is asking for him to be delisted, we all know he offers the side a lot. But there is no arguing that he kills the side when he is kicking at the level he was on Saturday and as I've said a thousand times, if he doesn't level out these weaknesses or at least mask them like smarter players do then he'll be really costing the side. 

Is it a [censored] crime to want to see your team improve?

Edited March 7, 20169 yr by stevethemanjordan

19 hours ago, Pates said:

I am one that has critiqued him in this post without seeing the game but it was a general critique based on what I've seen in the past. 

I should also say that at his best he is an AA defender, he was killing it last year until Cloke pulled his 1 in 22 games performance against us, he didn't seem the be able to regain his confidence. That's not an excuse by the way, the best defenders are able to shake off bad days and get on with the job. But he is very important to the team and the teams future.

I watched the replay again last night. McDonald was ok. He defended well. Supercoach points 92 if that floats your boat.

I think we may be suffering tall poppy Jack Watts played well who do we pot syndrome. TPJWPWWDWPS

Stevethemanjordan i agree that he needs to improve his kicking and that there will be times his poor disposal will cost us. I get it.

Some might argue that he should be more circumspect and not take risks with his kicking (handball more!). But clearly the coaches demand he take risks, in fact as one of our most prolific ball winners down back it is critical he does so if we are any hope of attacking from the back line and moving the ball quickly.

I have no doubt he is under coaches order to go for those risky kicks, no doubt. So the more he practices them under match like condition (ie a NAB cup game) the better he will get at them.

But what is your proposed solution Steve? Or do you just want to let people know how you feel about his kicking?

41 minutes ago, binman said:

Like a golfer with a poor technique TMac has a suspect technique that is exposed in the wind. Does that mean he shouldn't go for marginal kicks in a NAB game. Of course not and id be shocked if the coaches would accept him doing so. Watching the replay reminded me that he actually hit a a number of long crosses that set up attacking plays from the backline, which of course is what we need him to do. 

 

Of all things I find this to be honest the most poignant and interesting.

He is INCAPABLE of consistency with regard marginal kicks at the best of times. Hes just not that good a kick. It has got somewhat better over the journey but where ever finesses is required by foot  ol' Tommy is a monty to fluff it.

So as to your question , should he ?  Well surely it always goes to the greater good of the team in a game.  If by persisting with an inadequacy you constantly provide opposition with opportunities as opposed OUR own team  ( which is his role after all ) then  NO.  He ought not go for marginal kicks in ANY game.  Some players have learnt their limitations and play to their strengths. He again we call into question the decisions made.   Its all there for the watching if people open their eyes.

2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Of all things I find this to be honest the most poignant and interesting.

He is INCAPABLE of consistency with regard marginal kicks at the best of times. Hes just not that good a kick. It has got somewhat better over the journey but where ever finesses is required by foot  ol' Tommy is a monty to fluff it.

So as to your question , should he ?  Well surely it always goes to the greater good of the team in a game.  If by persisting with an inadequacy you constantly provide opposition with opportunities as opposed OUR own team  ( which is his role after all ) then  NO.  He ought not go for marginal kicks in ANY game.  Some players have learnt their limitations and play to their strengths. He again we call into question the decisions made.   Its all there for the watching if people open their eyes.

Actually  - compare Tom to Lynden Dunn. Dunn is a good kick - however  - you rarely if ever see Dunn take a risky kick. If the player he is trying to hit up is not metres in the clear he will kick as long as he can, usually to a contest where he hopes it is better than a 50/50 chance. I just never see Dunn try a marginal kick.

 

I equate this thread to posting a thread like:

"Jesse Hogans field kicking is a liability" after NAB 1 where his field kicking was very poor and really his field kicking is solid but not a strength and due to his kicking technique is prone to making one or two errors.
"Max Gawn needs to concentrate during games more" after NAB 2 where his positioning in marking contests especially against the wind was pretty poor.

Forget about the good things a player does, but really focus on their deficiencies in order to push improvement. His pure kicking errors let him down and his decision making at times is poor, but these are negligible due to his impact defesnively and offensively in a game.
Everyone wants each player to improve and his kicking has steadily improved, as has his decision making, but with a more attacking game style on the cards Tom McDonald will be continually encouraged to take the game on. What posters are suggesting is that he plays safe options, taking the easy spot up 15m to the side, which effectively defeats the purpose of taking the intercept mark and allows for opposition to set up and find Melbourne players. He needs to be encouraged to try and capitalise on these forced turnovers and create offensive chains out of our back half.

Theres a difference between taking the game on ( and knowing your own limitations and working to them ) and making wise decisions  and going like a bull at a gate and coughing it up.

here he needs work.  Is this really that hard a concept ?

57 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Of all things I find this to be honest the most poignant and interesting.

He is INCAPABLE of consistency with regard marginal kicks at the best of times. Hes just not that good a kick. It has got somewhat better over the journey but where ever finesses is required by foot  ol' Tommy is a monty to fluff it.

So as to your question , should he ?  Well surely it always goes to the greater good of the team in a game.  If by persisting with an inadequacy you constantly provide opposition with opportunities as opposed OUR own team  ( which is his role after all ) then  NO.  He ought not go for marginal kicks in ANY game.  Some players have learnt their limitations and play to their strengths. He again we call into question the decisions made.   Its all there for the watching if people open their eyes.

But BB surely you concede that in all likelihood his coaches are directing him to take risks? Because if they're not he is regularly refusing to follow directions (ie not to take risks) and therefore would be dragged or dropped. 

If the coaches think the risks outweigh the rewards then they would tell him to handball more and not try marginal kicks. And i'm sure TMac would comply with that directive.

Roos is a premiership coach and Goodwin seems to know what he is about so if they want TMac to continue to take risks with his kicks and be agressive that is more than good enough for me. That said i respect your right to have an opposing view. Perhaps email Roosy and let him know it. 

they seem very unnecessary risks for mine  Bin.  I cant really see anyone dragging  Mac can you  ?

Part of footy nouse  ( for mine ) has always been to know which trick to pull out of the bag at what time. Even if the idea is to go a particular route ...i.e game plan. No plan would be that hard and fast surely not to allow for the weather ?

When swirly keep it shorter /lower.

watching the replay it seemed  Goody had some rather nonplussed looks on his face at times.  Not all Toms doing I grant you.

What I object to in this thread is the title ... 'needs to have a good hard look at himself'. It implies there is something wrong with his attitude.

While I am happy to question his skill level, ability to make decisions in traffic, and his kicking, I've never found his attitude to be an issue. 

26 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

What I object to in this thread is the title ... 'needs to have a good hard look at himself'. It implies there is something wrong with his attitude.

While I am happy to question his skill level, ability to make decisions in traffic, and his kicking, I've never found his attitude to be an issue. 

There are many aspects to a players attitude. While this occurred two years ago, it highlighted an attitude issue to me.

At pre-season training (I have been a couple of times each year for the past 5 years) the team was doing a simple warm-up drill, basically kick to kick. The boys were supposed to go back and take a few steps before kicking the ball each time. Tom McDonald was not doing this, he was just kicking the ball without going back and taking his steps. Brad Miller told him to do it properly.

About a minute later Brad Miller had a decent crack at him for not doing it again and not taking it seriously. He seemed somewhat surprised at the spray he got. 

He is a definite keeper and his kicking in the training drills I saw this pre-season was actually quite impressive. Just needs to limit the gap between his best and worst. Hopefully it was just the wind.

Those saying that up forward his kicking wouldn't hurt as much are kidding themselves. Kennedy and to a lesser extent Kent and Garlett (who often chose the wrong option when goals/scores should be guaranteed) have shown this. 

Also, as others have added about Frost. The reason he doesn't play defense is that Minson mark. I remember Jamar absolutely pantsing him in training in his 1st preseason in a forward/backman drill. I'd be 99% sure Roos/Rawlings don't trust him in defence. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 20169 yr by Watts the matter

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Theres a difference between taking the game on ( and knowing your own limitations and working to them ) and making wise decisions  and going like a bull at a gate and coughing it up.

here he needs work.  Is this really that hard a concept ?

Well according to some it was an 'off day' so I am like you trying to work if they really are simple minded to work out the concept. I don't care if he is only 23 and still young blah blah.. Fact is he hasn't improved his kicking and decision at all in those 6 years and if he doesn't its going to cost us in the big games come finals.

1 hour ago, Watts the matter said:

There are many aspects to a players attitude. While this occurred two years ago, it highlighted an attitude issue to me.

At pre-season training (I have been a couple of times each year for the past 5 years) the team was doing a simple warm-up drill, basically kick to kick. The boys were supposed to go back and take a few steps before kicking the ball each time. Tom McDonald was not doing this, he was just kicking the ball without going back and taking his steps. Brad Miller told him to do it properly.

About a minute later Brad Miller had a decent crack at him for not doing it again and not taking it seriously. He seemed somewhat surprised at the spray he got. 

He is a definite keeper and his kicking in the training drills I saw this pre-season was actually quite impressive. Just needs to limit the gap between his best and worst. Hopefully it was just the wind.

Those saying that up forward his kicking wouldn't hurt as much are kidding themselves. Kennedy and to a lesser extent Kent and Garlett (who often chose the wrong option when goals/scores should be guaranteed) have shown this. 

Also, as others have added about Frost. The reason he doesn't play defense is that Minson mark. I remember Jamar absolutely pantsing him in training in his 1st preseason in a forward/backman drill. I'd be 99% sure Roos/Rawlings don't trust him in defence. 

 

 

 

 

In before Saty tells you that this is completely untrue and you have no idea...

4 hours ago, binman said:

Stevethemanjordan i agree that he needs to improve his kicking and that there will be times his poor disposal will cost us. I get it.

Some might argue that he should be more circumspect and not take risks with his kicking (handball more!). But clearly the coaches demand he take risks, in fact as one of our most prolific ball winners down back it is critical he does so if we are any hope of attacking from the back line and moving the ball quickly.

I have no doubt he is under coaches order to go for those risky kicks, no doubt. So the more he practices them under match like condition (ie a NAB cup game) the better he will get at them.

But what is your proposed solution Steve? Or do you just want to let people know how you feel about his kicking?

The poster that I've quoted below has just given an interesting insight into a training incident. What it does say is that there's is a lack of concentration or awareness when given instruction. And that was only at training...

When McDonald finds himself in the pressure cooker, (A game situation) it looks as if the situation gets the better of him.

Players have different traits and my proposed solution for someone who is clearly limited in the kicking-skills department is to add some awareness and composure when the ball is in his hands. I'm talking about when he has possession of the ball after a mark or free kick which means he has time to consider his options.. He should at this stage of his career know which targets are low percentage and which are high percentage in these situations, given his foot-skills. I say this because I don't see that his kicking will ever improve. He has a flawed technique and mis-kicks the ball way too often.

Smart players who don't have great kicking skills can still make the right decisions which result in far fewer turnovers. Especially ones that result directly in goals or shots on goal for the opposition. The most damaging kind of turn-over.

It doesn't seem to me like there's an awareness of this limitation in his game because time after time he goes for kicks he simply shouldn't be going for. If he's kicking inside 50 then sure, I'd say he has more leeway to go for a more difficult kick. Only because a turn-over won't result directly in a shot on goal. It's obviously less of a risk. What's problematic is that it seems he doesn't understand that or doesn't recognise the situation and when he should or shouldn't execute certain kicks. 

Now that's specifically when he has the ball to take a kick. Not in general play where the pressure is cranked up again. That's another story. But all of it comes down to awareness in my eyes. And if he can't fix his 'kicking' (which I don't think he can), he can certainly work on his decision making, awareness and understanding of when to go for certain kicks and when not to.

My concern is that he has been in the system for a long time yet hasn't shown improvement in these areas. That is not a good sign. He is not bridging the gap. And the same applies for Colin Garland. They both play in our back-line. And it's scary at times to see just how damaging certain turnovers can be. Coach killers. Teams improve when young players turn their strengths into weapons and improve their weaknesses.

Posters might argue that being the NAB challenge, he should have the right to go for some of those dangerous kicks from defence. I'd argue the opposite. He should be practicing for when there are points up for grabs. Repetition, repetition, repitition. The more awareness he has in those situations, the less he'll turn it over. 

Simple.

 

 

2 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

There are many aspects to a players attitude. While this occurred two years ago, it highlighted an attitude issue to me.

At pre-season training (I have been a couple of times each year for the past 5 years) the team was doing a simple warm-up drill, basically kick to kick. The boys were supposed to go back and take a few steps before kicking the ball each time. Tom McDonald was not doing this, he was just kicking the ball without going back and taking his steps. Brad Miller told him to do it properly.

About a minute later Brad Miller had a decent crack at him for not doing it again and not taking it seriously. He seemed somewhat surprised at the spray he got. 

He is a definite keeper and his kicking in the training drills I saw this pre-season was actually quite impressive. Just needs to limit the gap between his best and worst. Hopefully it was just the wind.

Those saying that up forward his kicking wouldn't hurt as much are kidding themselves. Kennedy and to a lesser extent Kent and Garlett (who often chose the wrong option when goals/scores should be guaranteed) have shown this. 

Also, as others have added about Frost. The reason he doesn't play defense is that Minson mark. I remember Jamar absolutely pantsing him in training in his 1st preseason in a forward/backman drill. I'd be 99% sure Roos/Rawlings don't trust him in defence. 

 

 

 

 

Interesting!

Edited March 8, 20169 yr by stevethemanjordan

agree with all of that STMJ