Resilience - MFC Players V MFC Supporters (Merged Thread)

[old dee 24,072]

OD have you been in direct contact with P.R. lately?

I am detecting a marginaly positive bias here

RN I have been saying for weeks that we still have a lot of players that are not good enough.

Now a lot of people say that is negative I say it is facing the facts.

You lose the odd game because of screw ups you lose multiples because you are not good enough i.e. the players on the other teams are better than ours.

We get hammered by the top 4 or 5 sides because we are not even close yet to their skill levels.

Sunday was different because I do not believe that Carlton have better players than us.

Add in the long term injuries and we are struggling to beat anyone.

The fact remains our playing group is still at the level of the bottom 5-6 teams

[Pates 9,694]

I was extremely annoyed to see PJ's clarification and essentially having a dig at the supporters negativity. I think most would agree that for a large portion of this year we have been very positive and supportive in the face of some pretty underwhelming performances. Yes we have had some good wins; Geelong, Richmond, Dogs (1st time around), Pies, and even GC in round one was a hoodoo ticked off. But there have been some soul destroying and frustrating losses as well through the year; St Kilda twice, Essendon, Port come to mind. These last two weeks have been on a difference level though and I think supporters have every right to make sure the club knows we're not going to sit back and take it.

That doesn't mean we want them to deviate from the course or that we think we're not going in the right direction but there is no doubt in mind mind there is mindset within the playing group to give up when all is lost for the year. They disgraced themselves and the club in the last two weeks, tell me PJ how are we meant to be positive about that? Are we as fans/members meant to say, "it's all good" or my personal favourite "relax we've got this"?

If what PJ said is true then I am filthy with both his and Paul's comments. Every year I am positive at the start, hell I actually thought we'd turned the corner after our win at KP, and maybe we still have, but Paul has one year left. His job was to set the club up with stability on field. We have the coach set but the questions on the playing group remain.

[Cards13 9,117]

http://titusoreily.com/an-open-letter-to-paul-roos-and-peter-jackson/

[Dr. Mubutu 867]

* A group of vocal supporters who will not accept any evidence to the contrary and insist that the problem lay exclusively with the coach.

The difference is that this time, the CEO isn't among that group.

[rpfc 28,998]

http://titusoreily.com/an-open-letter-to-paul-roos-and-peter-jackson/

Yeah, clint bizkit linked to it the other thread.

Don't agree, and forcing hollow apologies for things he didn't mean is a very Melbourne way to embarrass a coach and distract the club.

But, yeah, [censored] it, we are a joke, why don't we continue bringing the laughs for others.

Edit: There is that casual syndrome again...

[Dr. Mubutu 867]

I was extremely annoyed to see PJ's clarification and essentially having a dig at the supporters negativity. I think most would agree that for a large portion of this year we have been very positive and supportive in the face of some pretty underwhelming performances. Yes we have had some good wins; Geelong, Richmond, Dogs (1st time around), Pies, and even GC in round one was a hoodoo ticked off. But there have been some soul destroying and frustrating losses as well through the year; St Kilda twice, Essendon, Port come to mind. These last two weeks have been on a difference level though and I think supporters have every right to make sure the club knows we're not going to sit back and take it.

That doesn't mean we want them to deviate from the course or that we think we're not going in the right direction but there is no doubt in mind mind there is mindset within the playing group to give up when all is lost for the year. They disgraced themselves and the club in the last two weeks, tell me PJ how are we meant to be positive about that? Are we as fans/members meant to say, "it's all good" or my personal favourite "relax we've got this"?

If what PJ said is true then I am filthy with both his and Paul's comments. Every year I am positive at the start, hell I actually thought we'd turned the corner after our win at KP, and maybe we still have, but Paul has one year left. His job was to set the club up with stability on field. We have the coach set but the questions on the playing group remain.

Is anything they said actually incorrect though?

Nobody has come out and said: "All Melbourne supporters have to be happy and everything is sunshine and rainbows." If they have, I've definitely missed it.

Roos and Jackson have simply acknowledged that the mindset around the supporters is predominately negative, and have stated the reasons why. Nothing more. At no point were the supporters 'blamed' for this, that was the usual suspects in the media, looking for cheap ratings.

Don't get me wrong, I was as incensed as anybody at the time, and agree that it wasn't a good look, but the only thing wrong is the timing. If they'd brought it up during the off-season, with no performances fresh in the mind to compare it to, this jumping at shadows wouldn't have happened. Given time (and probably because I don't live in Melbourne, so the AFL media isn't quite all-pervading here), I've been able to calm down, and actually look at what was said rationally.

What has happened, though, is the self-serving prophecy, because we are, in fact, negative, that as a supporter group we assume that we are being blamed for the shortcomings of the playing group. This is simply not the case.

We can be negative. We are allowed to be negative. In fact, one could argue that we have the right to be negative until the team shows us otherwise.

But don't jump up and down when someone says "Y'know what, they're negative." As a senior coach of an AFL club once said: "It is what it is."

[daisycutter 29,988]

what paul roos and peter jackson should be doing is telling the players (and support staff) to stop reading fan forums and to keep away from most forms of social media.

they obviously are and can't handle it. It's only going to be worse when you are underperforming

[stuie 7,374]

Is anything they said actually incorrect though?

Nobody has come out and said: "All Melbourne supporters have to be happy and everything is sunshine and rainbows." If they have, I've definitely missed it.

Roos and Jackson have simply acknowledged that the mindset around the supporters is predominately negative, and have stated the reasons why. Nothing more. At no point were the supporters 'blamed' for this, that was the usual suspects in the media, looking for cheap ratings.

Don't get me wrong, I was as incensed as anybody at the time, and agree that it wasn't a good look, but the only thing wrong is the timing. If they'd brought it up during the off-season, with no performances fresh in the mind to compare it to, this jumping at shadows wouldn't have happened. Given time (and probably because I don't live in Melbourne, so the AFL media isn't quite all-pervading here), I've been able to calm down, and actually look at what was said rationally.

What has happened, though, is the self-serving prophecy, because we are, in fact, negative, that as a supporter group we assume that we are being blamed for the shortcomings of the playing group. This is simply not the case.

We can be negative. We are allowed to be negative. In fact, one could argue that we have the right to be negative until the team shows us otherwise.

But don't jump up and down when someone says "Y'know what, they're negative." As a senior coach of an AFL club once said: "It is what it is."

Correct or incorrect doesn't matter. What matters is taking a swipe at the supporters when the last few weeks we have seen absolutely spiritless and effortless performances from the players.

Also, Roos saying that the attitude of supporters effects the playing group is pretty clearly laying some blame. And that was a direct quote from Roos himself, not an editorial addition.

[Pates 9,694]

Is anything they said actually incorrect though?

Nobody has come out and said: "All Melbourne supporters have to be happy and everything is sunshine and rainbows." If they have, I've definitely missed it.

Roos and Jackson have simply acknowledged that the mindset around the supporters is predominately negative, and have stated the reasons why. Nothing more. At no point were the supporters 'blamed' for this, that was the usual suspects in the media, looking for cheap ratings.

Don't get me wrong, I was as incensed as anybody at the time, and agree that it wasn't a good look, but the only thing wrong is the timing. If they'd brought it up during the off-season, with no performances fresh in the mind to compare it to, this jumping at shadows wouldn't have happened. Given time (and probably because I don't live in Melbourne, so the AFL media isn't quite all-pervading here), I've been able to calm down, and actually look at what was said rationally.

What has happened, though, is the self-serving prophecy, because we are, in fact, negative, that as a supporter group we assume that we are being blamed for the shortcomings of the playing group. This is simply not the case.

We can be negative. We are allowed to be negative. In fact, one could argue that we have the right to be negative until the team shows us otherwise.

But don't jump up and down when someone says "Y'know what, they're negative." As a senior coach of an AFL club once said: "It is what it is."

I agree with what your saying and to be honest it is a concern of mine with the club (watch out PJ negativity coming), I do believe there is systemic "here we go again" feeling that shrouds the club. It's partly my biggest concern that it gets passed on generation to generation. As much as I love Jonesy he has been around for the worst period in the clubs history, it would be hard for him not to have that somewhere in his mind. Hell even just the likes of Dawes having been around for the Neeld era probably has that in him. Then you've got the likes of Garland, Dunn, McKenzie etc.

My point is that it feels ingrained in EVERYONE. That was why getting wins this year was so critical, to make sure the future of our club aren't experiencing that same winless depression and it's why the loss to Carlton hurt so much more than the demolition at the hands of the dogs. Same goes for the losses to St Kilda and Essendon.

If they want praise, then yes: we have improved. Our best this year has been really good and exciting to watch. Sadly our worst is still as bad as it has ever been.

[rpfc 28,998]

Correct or incorrect doesn't matter. What matters is taking a swipe at the supporters when the last few weeks we have seen absolutely spiritless and effortless performances from the players.

Also, Roos saying that the attitude of supporters effects the playing group is pretty clearly laying some blame. And that was a direct quote from Roos himself, not an editorial addition.

Ah, yes, the 'direct quote' of the notorious waffler.

He spoke of the vibe of the club, that we are a part of, and we are a part of the club aren't we?, has affected some of the players.

He did not say that we are the reason why we lose - only that we expect to, and that some players feel the same, and in the very next breath that I quoted and you didn't, he said that those players need to get over that mindset and that he is sick of talking about it.

[stuie 7,374]

Ah, yes, the 'direct quote' of the notorious waffler.

He spoke of the vibe of the club, that we are a part of, and we are a part of the club aren't we?, has affected some of the players.

He did not say that we are the reason why we lose - only that we expect to, and that some players feel the same, and in the very next breath that I quoted and you didn't, he said that those players need to get over that mindset and that he is sick of talking about it.

Speaking of quotes, where exactly did I say that we as supporters were blamed for being the reason we lose?

"If supporters are telling you they are expecting to lose driving to the game, there's no doubt there's a vibe that must rub off on at least a small group of players. That's just something they [the players] have got to get over. I'm sick of talking about it."

There's the full quote. It's clumsy and a bit of a waffle, but taking it for what it actually says apparently the fans expecting to lose (because of the performances of the players) effects the performance of the players...

The simple fact is, to say anything that could be construed negatively about the fans who have stuck fat through some terrible times after the performances of the last few weeks is incredibly stupid and short sighted. No has said we aren't negative, but geez the timing of having a crack at supporters is appalling.

[Dr. Mubutu 867]

Correct or incorrect doesn't matter. What matters is taking a swipe at the supporters when the last few weeks we have seen absolutely spiritless and effortless performances from the players.

Also, Roos saying that the attitude of supporters effects the playing group is pretty clearly laying some blame. And that was a direct quote from Roos himself, not an editorial addition.

From the quote, it sounds like he's blaming the players for not being able to separate their performance from the doom-and-gloom of the supporter base.

"That's just something they have to get over. I'm sick of talking about it."

Of course, if you choose to look at everything negatively.....

[Sir Why You Little 37,407]

The thing is, hilariously, you are.

You'll whinge and carry on like you're making some sort of stand.

And you'll continue to "take it."

But you don't even realise it.

No you just have no sense of humour.

I just am sick to death of performances like last sunday and for that i blame a bunch of players with weak attitudes

Can't wait for them to leave..

[jnrmac 20,331]

RN I have been saying for weeks that we still have a lot of players that are not good enough.

Now a lot of people say that is negative I say it is facing the facts.

You lose the odd game because of screw ups you lose multiples because you are not good enough i.e. the players on the other teams are better than ours.

We get hammered by the top 4 or 5 sides because we are not even close yet to their skill levels.

Sunday was different because I do not believe that Carlton have better players than us.

Add in the long term injuries and we are struggling to beat anyone.

The fact remains our playing group is still at the level of the bottom 5-6 teams

You may be right OD but its more about effort. Running, tackling, chasing, harassing etc.

These basics aren't about skill. They are about desire and intent. We don't have it and its a coaching issue,.

I'd be happy if we went to Freo this week and came back with 120 tackles.Forget the scoreline. Just effort. Now that is unlikely on such a big ground but you get the picture.

Effort. Its a non-negotiable.

We the fans turn up every week. How about the players turn up??

[Demon Dynasty 17,150]

You may be right OD but its more about effort. Running, tackling, chasing, harassing etc.

These basics aren't about skill. They are about desire and intent. We don't have it and its a coaching issue,.

I'd be happy if we went to Freo this week and came back with 120 tackles.Forget the scoreline. Just effort. Now that is unlikely on such a big ground but you get the picture.

Effort. Its a non-negotiable.

We the fans turn up every week. How about the players turn up??

That is correct Jnr.

That was the only difference in the teams on Sunday. Our opponent gave it for 3 quarters or so. We only gave it after half time.

The coach should be capable of instilling this into his playing group after nearly 2 seasons as a bare minimum non-negotiable. The fact that he hasn't, especially against very similar ordinary opposition, has to be a massive concern to everyone at the club. And if it isn't then they must be living in a vert different footy universe to the one I'm living in.

P.S. I err in saying it was the only difference. There are other factors at play here. Eg, our forward press or lack thereof gave Carlton the room to share the ball around in so much space they were able to gain massive confidence out the back and even through the middle we seemed to roll with a corraling tactic (corraling under intruction or just too lazy to close down space i wonder!?) for much of the 1st half from what I remember. Had we placed them under much more one on one pressure in our forward half then they may not have waltzed the ball so easily into their forward half/50 as they did on numerous occasions. Even hitting up previously unseen forward targets lace out like Kruiser ughh!

In addition when we tried to tighten up a little through mid field after the game was shot, in many cases (not all) some of our blokes sat off them and just sweated on them instead of attacking the pill. This allowed the Blues to gain first use of the ball (much of the time...again not in every contest obviously) thru the mid and gave them quick entry inside 50. Whereas most of our attacking came off rebounds from our defensive 50. And we know how often we manage to turn the ball over trying to work the ball up the field! Very Neeldesque...eeeks.

[Dr. Mubutu 867]

You may be right OD but its more about effort. Running, tackling, chasing, harassing etc.

These basics aren't about skill. They are about desire and intent. We don't have it and its a coaching issue,.

I'd be happy if we went to Freo this week and came back with 120 tackles.Forget the scoreline. Just effort. Now that is unlikely on such a big ground but you get the picture.

Effort. Its a non-negotiable.

We the fans turn up every week. How about the players turn up??

Given our previous best for the season are 99 against Richmond (with vandenBerg contributing 12!) and 88 winning against Footscray (another 11 from vandenBerg), perhaps a more achievable result is in order?

84 tackles averages to one per player, per quarter. I'd be very happy with that, especially considering the pace of our side, and the size of Subiaco.

[rpfc 28,998]

There's the full quote. It's clumsy and a bit of a waffle, but taking it for what it actually says apparently the fans expecting to lose (because of the performances of the players) effects the performance of the players...

The simple fact is, to say anything that could be construed negatively about the fans who have stuck fat through some terrible times after the performances of the last few weeks is incredibly stupid and short sighted. No has said we aren't negative, but geez the timing of having a crack at supporters is appalling.

The timing is appalling but he is talks out of clumsy sympathy, not whatever motive you and others are attaching to it. Whenever he talks about the fans he is trying to tell a tortured story to the football masses that he, himself, is slowly coming to terms with. He loves to critique things - I think we can all agree on that. And his continued mentions in 2014 to the scars of the past is testament to that - that last line of his in that quote about 'being sick of talking about it' is a reference to that tired argument I think you would agree.

From the quote, it sounds like he's blaming the players for not being able to separate their performance from the doom-and-gloom of the supporter base.

"That's just something they have to get over. I'm sick of talking about it."

Of course, if you choose to look at everything negatively.....

Another irony is that this quote looks like the statement of someone who wants to stop talking about the past he inherited but had no involvement in.

Now he has thrown himself into it - that I agree with - he has thrown himself in there like a good Demon...

But we are - with the help of a few in the media - are smelling blood that will lead to self defeating conclusions if we don't back off.

[Cards13 9,117]

Yeah, clint bizkit linked to it the other thread.

Don't agree, and forcing hollow apologies for things he didn't mean is a very Melbourne way to embarrass a coach and distract the club.

But, yeah, [censored] it, we are a joke, why don't we continue bringing the laughs for others.

Edit: There is that casual syndrome again...

I think it is fair to put the light back on them, I am negative, I see the light, but am really struggling to maintain an enjoyment of the MFC and take some offence to what Roos said. I basically don't talk footy at all now days because I'm embarrassed by my club, what a horrible state of affairs.

[old dee 24,072]

I think it is fair to put the light back on them, I am negative, I see the light, but am really struggling to maintain an enjoyment of the MFC and take some offence to what Roos said. I basically don't talk footy at all now days because I'm embarrassed by my club, what a horrible state of affairs.

You are not alone Cards There are thousands like you.

Hang in there mate we will all be still around when they are not.

[Uncle Fester 2,848]

Negative... sure. I expect the worst but hope for the best. Being positive has been mercilessly beaten out of me since the mid 70's...

But I'm not going away or microwaving memberships or anything like that. The club is under my skin and it's either them or nothing. I suspect that every true Demon feels much like I do.

[Gator 18,051]

In my opinion our biggest challenge is assembling the type of leadership group that is going to consign these types of performances to the past. Your leadership group drives club culture and unfortunately ours is bereft of players that lift their teammates either across the line or back into a contest after a poor start.

Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell

Ling, Scarlett, Bartel, etc.

Voss, Black, Scott Bros, etc.

I actually believe the likes of Hogan, Brayshaw and Viney can become the type of leaders that will render these performances a thing of the past, but it will be 4-5 years before they're experienced and hardened enough to consistently perform and drive uncompromising values.

Sometimes our leaders stand up, but they are nowhere near the level required to play consistent quality football or drag their teammates with them with the going gets tough. Our woes still stem from a poor LG.

[Mach5 4,768]

http://titusoreily.com/an-open-letter-to-paul-roos-and-peter-jackson/

Right.

I thought he was setting up for the "fly away Peter, fly away Paul" with the inevitable "come back Peter, come back Paul"...but no.

It turns out he's a bloke with a decent sense of humour, but unfortunately like many, he's a bloody imbecile when it comes to footy.

It seems footy manages to sap the intelligence out of so many.

[rjay 25,408]

Right.

I thought he was setting up for the "fly away Peter, fly away Paul" with the inevitable "come back Peter, come back Paul"...but no.

It turns out he's a bloke with a decent sense of humour, but unfortunately like many, he's a bloody imbecile when it comes to footy.

It seems footy manages to sap the intelligence out of so many.

I think he nailed it with this bit though 'Mach5'...

You guys are following some of the worst administrators and coaches in living memory in international sport.

[radar 1,867]

You have an accomplice DR

Obviously it has been me since 1960 that has been me dragging down the Club.

If only I had known in 1965 I was the reason.

Could have switched to Hawthorn.

Probably saved the MFC and had a much more enjoyable footy life for the last half a century.

Perhaps we should all leave now and the club will have clear air in 2016 as their would be no one in the stands to worry the poor darlings.

I switched FROM Hawthorn in 1965 - bad call.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,463]

Dr im not sure many of our players get the concept of "back to the basics" ... theyve had a few years to get it now and still go missing against some very ordinary teams

It's a mindset thing. Most of them still act like it's park footy and play accordingly. I seriously doubt many of them understand the concept of professionalism. Don't they have pride in their own performance?

It's why guys like Hogan, Viney and Brayshaw come in and stick out like dogs balls.