I know one thing for sure

N Jones cannot be a long term Captain

He is not strong enough mentally to do it

Been saying this for years and get absolutely blasted every time I have.

He's an introvert. Sets a good example but that does not make a good leader.

Good leaders EMPOWER, and INSPIRE. He just kind of sets a standard but he doesn't demand that everyone follow him. He has better cattle around him now and he should have gone to another level this year. One of our most disappointing this year but he'll still [censored] in the B&F.

Well, Jones didn't ask to be captain. He was appointed captain. And a good choice given the candidates.

He can't help being who he is. If he can't be empowering or inspiring, then he should set a good example. And he does. Gives it a red hot go every time, win or lose, in form or not.

If other players can't lift their games accordingly it reflects more on them than on him.

It's not his fault that the leadership, such as it was, was gutted over a 4 year period. The role of captain is coming from a long way back and Jones is giving it his all.

If everyone put in as hard as Jones every week we sure as hell wouldn't be dropping so many gettable games.

Well, Jones didn't ask to be captain. He was appointed captain. And a good choice given the candidates.

He can't help being who he is. If he can't be empowering or inspiring, then he should set a good example. And he does. Gives it a red hot go every time, win or lose, in form or not.

If other players can't lift their games accordingly it reflects more on them than on him.

It's not his fault that the leadership, such as it was, was gutted over a 4 year period. The role of captain is coming from a long way back and Jones is giving it his all.

If everyone put in as hard as Jones every week we sure as hell wouldn't be dropping so many gettable games.

Correct

But we are in a situation where we have to trade for a Captain

That is the only way i can see the standard being reached

Jonesy is a great worker

Would t mind Swan Josh Kennedy.

Perfect pedigree - Grandpa launched Hawthorn - and Football smarts from Premiership midfield.

Captain.

Sorry mate

Roos is a much better Coach than that.

How many coaches has this list killed so far ??

The coach doesn't demand a lack of skill or to hand ball to a player in a worse situation...

That's players deciding it's all too hard...

Is he now or was he a better coach 8 years ago. Most of us sitting in the stands can see our structural flaws yet we see it time and time again. We have a potential star forward that is getting bashed up at the moment because every time we go forward he has three to beat, as soon as I see a loose man in our forward 50, I know he are stuffed.

Sorry mate

Roos is a much better Coach than that.

How many coaches has this list killed so far ??

The coach doesn't demand a lack of skill or to hand ball to a player in a worse situation...

That's players deciding it's all too hard...

I know one thing for sure

N Jones cannot be a long term Captain

He is not strong enough mentally to do it

Correct

But we are in a situation where we have to trade for a Captain

That is the only way i can see the standard being reached

Jonesy is a great worker

Sir WYL, with the greatest respect, you need a break. Watching the Demons is causing you so much stress you're now writing, well, rubbish.

1. Blaming the list instead of the coach. How many players who played on Sunday were at the club prior to Roos joining? Not that many.

2. Jones "not mentally tough". I don't even know how to argue this one. He plays week after week in the (long term) worst team in the competition and gives his all each time. I think that makes him mentally tough. I've always believed that a captain needs to be able to fulfil many roles, and a lot of them off-field. Is he good at them? I have no idea, but I'm not going to say he's not suitable to be captain because he's not mentally tough enough.

3. Trade a player in and make him captain. That should really help the egos and pride of the rest of the team. As I've said before, without followers, leaders cannot be successful. Admittedly amongst other reasons, it's why I believe Luke Hodge and Nick Reiwoldt make great captains, and why Chris Judd and Mark Murphy do not (which is not to denigrate other aspects of their on-field performances). How likely would it be that a traded in player would be followed by the rest of the team?

Sir WYL, take a break form Demonland. You appear over-wrought.

no it's ok La Dee i am just of the opinion that this club still needs radical changes before we can get out of this Tailspin

Jonesy may well be trying his guts out and i want him out on the ground but he aint the Captain who can turn this mess around.

He is targetted and blanketted to easily.

For a fella who I reckon is one of Demonland's more knowledgeable posters, you sure act like a dolt sometimes.

I'm not content with being average. I merely don't ride the roller coaster of "we'll push for finals" to "we won't win another game all year" that crops up on here from week to week.

Surely you can see that describing this week as the "tipping point" is nothing but rank hyperbole? Jeez, it wasn't even the worst we've been this year, let alone in the last 5. We knew we had a propensity for being crud when we shouldn't be. We knew that our effort and intensity are inconsistent. I don't know why we carry on after each loss as if it's something new.

And it'll all be forgotten when we win again. Until we lose again, of course...

Not everyone rides that rollercoaster. You're pointing to group that subscribe to that 'exaggerate a win and exaggerate a loss'. I am not in that group, and others who have already replied to you are clearly not either.

I'm not sure why you think it's so black and white with supporters.

I get the impression that you're a 'happy go lucky' supporter who doesn't get too carried away whether we win or lose, just happy to follow a sporting club, happy to fall in love with players who have donned the jumper for enough years that you end up blind to the fact that part of the reason we go through such embarrassingly bad patches of football is because of some of these players. Etc etc...

You're acting like just as much of dolt for having a dig on a thread that is clearly not in the 'exaggerate every win or loss' camp. There was no meaningful contribution. Just a jeer.

The 'loss' or the fact we 'lose' is actually irrelevant for me. It's the way in which we play the game. Regardless of the result. Which is why I don't get carried away about a win at skilled stadium. It was one win. We played some good football, Geelong played very poorly. We can't maintain a standard.

I don't why it's so hard for some supporters to see the deeply-rooted problems that the MFC face. And I don't know why it's so hard to see that some supporters care about genuine change.

Agree with the post off the top.. I think we saw our next captain after Jones emerge on the weekend.. Jack Viney, if anyone watched that post match video on the website.. You could see the frustration and passion in his eyes.. The leaders will have to emerge over the next 3 years,. Ie Viney, Kent, Salem, Brayshaw and Hogan..

Garland, Watts, Grimes, Jamar, Bail.. They've all had enough time to say enough is enough.. They've failed..

Jones is our greatest player since Neitz, but hasn't even cracked AA yet.. (Which I think he should)

We are well and truly up against it this week.. The pies have lost 5 in a row.. They will come out sensing a live kill if we produce another 10 minutes of garbage we did in the first qtr on Sunday.

This weeks on Jones, not for getting a kick., but being a Captain and demanding MORE!!

The angst is understandable, same issues we've seen for so long. Roos has gone from hero to zero in the space of half a season because expectations were for more. More, wins, more effort, more hope that we're heading towards PremiershipNirvana only to be left constantly disappointed. Trying to be rational and logical about why we should continue to invest our emotional capital into the club is hard to do because perception is reality and the process of kudos transference means we all feel diminished by such performances and perhaps slightly soiled by the last ten years.

Rather than throw the baby out with the metaphorical bathwater though it's important to put some perspective around where we're at.*

- Regardless what we think of the game plan or the list he inherited at the Swans from Eade or the merit of the premiership win - Roos arrival at Melbourne has managed to buy the club a state of grace in terms of rebuilding that his successor would not necessarily have had from the media or supporters. Whether another coach could have achieved more is both speculative and irrelevant.

- The fact that the same issues are recurring at an unsuccessful club (old dogs, new tricks) and we point to clubs that have gone past us with successful cultures (Port and Saints -maybe not premierships, but sustained time at the top and minimal time at the bottom in the last ten years ) should not be surprising (Why aren't supporters comparing us to Essendon or Carlton?). Changing culture is both difficult and lengthy - we've started (again) to address the issue but we've still got a lot further to go regardless of how impatient we are as supporters. Did we really know what we were celebrating when Jordan McMahon kicked 'that' goal? (Anyone that thinks yelling and screaming at the players and talking tough will fix the issue, clearly hasn't a clue)

- Irregardless of whether we think Roos is the right coach or not and regardless of win loss ratios the succession plan is already in place that will if nothing else ensure continuity in terms of the familiarity and processes with the list and the work that needs to be done.

- Both our player development and our recruitment are now light years ahead of where we've come from and perhaps atm that's more perception than reality, but judging by comments on the benefit of playing first year players like Brayshaw, Hogan, Stretch, ANB, vandenBerg and Harmes compared to the whipping boys that DL consensus doesn't want to ever see in Melbourne colours again, most would concur. Hardly a surprise that when the first year players are drop off in the second half of the year - similar to last year - so does the team.

*I don't think this makes me a Pollyanna, but clearly some supporters won't want to hear anything except fire and brimstone, plague and famine.

I reckon you've made two really good points here grazman. If we recall what Roos said when he first accepted the job, that the worse is sounded the more interested he became in the job, then its worth recalling how bad things really were at that point in time and he should be commended for taking on the job at all. I agree that a untried coach would be under immense pressure similar to Neeld if they didn't achieve rapid improvements, which may have resulted in short-term efforts to improve the win-loss ratio. But agree its irrelevant what another coach might have achieved, and I think you are right about Roos being afforded more time and leniency, which was necessary given how far back we were coming from. IF Roos can at least instill the basics of modern football into the club (e.g. defensive pressure and two-way running) then that gives Goodwin a foundation to work with, which hopefully he can then add more attacking flair. Echoes of the Barassi and Northey years here...

I also agree we would be better served comparing ourselves to Essendon and Carlton, as both have faced some similar issues in recent years to us. Essendon has shown the same type of inconsistent form as us, with the coaching changes and supplement scandal no doubt affecting the 'culture' of the playing group in terms of their trust in the club hierarchy and the mental toll of having their immediate playing future in doubt. Carlton provides another interest comparison given their obvious 'list management' efforts to gain higher draft picks and the more recent experiment to bring in a highly credential coach which failed miserably. So as it stands, I argue we are in a much better position than those two clubs are at present (depsite our recent loss to Essendon).

I get the impression that you're a 'happy go lucky' supporter who doesn't get too carried away whether we win or lose, just happy to follow a sporting club, happy to fall in love with players who have donned the jumper for enough years that you end up blind to the fact that part of the reason we go through such embarrassingly bad patches of football is because of some of these players. Etc etc...

Got to say that I genuinely shot my eyebrows up at this comment. I'd be interested to know if I give others this impression from my posting style. Believe me, I don't think it could be further from the truth. I'm like the rest stmj, I die a little on the inside and spit it on the outside every time we lose badly like we did, and I couldn't give a stuff about the players beyond basic human decency. Particularly this group. I've said a lot of times that we've got always got too many inadequate players playing in the team at the same time, though I don't see that as being their fault, so I don't personalise it.

I just don't deal in hyperbole, that's all, and I try not to lose perspective. I thought this thread was hyperbole, particularly given who wrote it. You didn't. We'll leave it at that.

Edit: Apologies for bumping a thread that had already died of natural causes. Been offline for a few days.

An exaggeration!

9 seasons of this we have had

I don't think so....

if we beat collingwood it will just be a dead cat bounce

Typical maven comment from a guy wearing worn out hush puppies.

I know this has been said to death....

But the Tigers are another team (probably not unlike the Dees in a lot of ways) who stuck the coarse and are now seeing the fruit of their hard work

Swapping and changing the plans ever couple years is not productive. It obvious we are nowhere near where we want to be but we are 18 months in to a proper rebuild the Tigers went thought 4-5 years of inconsistent rubbish under Dimma? Now they are finally putting it all together.

Stick the coarse people, I know it sucks but instability at the club will achieve nothing

PS - I don't think there is anything wrong with venting years of frustrating

I just think another change of direction at the club will be very unproductive

An exaggeration!

9 seasons of this we have had

I don't think so....

you cannot demand wins & that wyl happen S

we have to change this club by turning it inside out, because everything the club does is wrong for winning, & becoming an elite club

like Hawthorn has over 50+ years... they turned themselves upside down, as a club, & changed they're culture, creating winning wayz. by creating fighting wayz.

currently, we'd be the premiers, if the game was Human Rights, & Carsons Law...

our problem is we cannot create Warriors, who will smash, kill, & destroy all comers.... its our offield culture that continually kills off this instinct within our boys.

I know this has been said to death....

But the Tigers are another team (probably not unlike the Dees in a lot of ways) who stuck the coarse and are now seeing the fruit of their hard work

Swapping and changing the plans ever couple years is not productive. It obvious we are nowhere near where we want to be but we are 18 months in to a proper rebuild the Tigers went thought 4-5 years of inconsistent rubbish under Dimma? Now they are finally putting it all together.

Stick the coarse people, I know it sucks but instability at the club will achieve nothing

PS - I don't think there is anything wrong with venting years of frustrating

I just think another change of direction at the club will be very unproductive

It's not about changing the course Unleash...it is about expecting AFL listed players to at least show basic skills

which we are not doing...

you cannot demand wins & that wyl happen S

we have to change this club by turning it inside out, because everything the club does is wrong for winning, & becoming an elite club

like Hawthorn has over 50+ years... they turned themselves upside down, as a club, & changed they're culture, creating winning wayz. by creating fighting wayz.

currently, we'd be the premiers, if the game was Human Rights, & Carsons Law...

our problem is we cannot create Warriors, who will smash, kill, & destroy all comers.... its our offield culture that continually kills off this instinct within our boys.

Yes Deeluded i know we have to rebuild the Northern Stand and detoxify the area

You have told us all many times.....

It's not about changing the course Unleash...it is about expecting AFL listed players to at least show basic skills

which we are not doing...

neither is the Australian cricket team SWYL, I mean they are currently well below recent form & trend line.

neither is the Australian cricket team SWYL, I mean they are currently well below recent form & trend line.

The Australian Cricket Team has achieved a hell of a lot more than the MFC over the last 51 years

Hardly a comparison

Typical maven comment from a guy wearing worn out hush puppies.

they suit my norwellan bluey, biffo

Condtions pretty good

It's not about changing the course Unleash...it is about expecting AFL listed players to at least show basic skills

which we are not doing...

We're 100% agreed on that

All I will say, Tiges, Hawks, even the dogs had a couple years of 'Development' before they started consistent rewarding footy.

I don't blame everyone for being angry as it's been a crap 8 years lets be honest apart from some small glimpses it's been bloody poor. All I can hold my hat on is that this rebuild is 18 months in, we have some real good kids but they need a couple years development before we really hit our straps.

I would love 2016 to be the year - But I honestly believe our kids need around 50 games before we really take off. So 2017 - 2018..... If we can top up some more maturity it might happen sooner, but I believe we are on the right track

Tipping point for threads that 'go too early' have well and truly been reached.

Got to say that I genuinely shot my eyebrows up at this comment. I'd be interested to know if I give others this impression from my posting style. Believe me, I don't think it could be further from the truth. I'm like the rest stmj, I die a little on the inside and spit it on the outside every time we lose badly like we did, and I couldn't give a stuff about the players beyond basic human decency. Particularly this group. I've said a lot of times that we've got always got too many inadequate players playing in the team at the same time, though I don't see that as being their fault, so I don't personalise it.

I just don't deal in hyperbole, that's all, and I try not to lose perspective. I thought this thread was hyperbole, particularly given who wrote it. You didn't. We'll leave it at that.

Edit: Apologies for bumping a thread that had already died of natural causes. Been offline for a few days.

Your posting style is safe. Sometimes bordering on condescending to those that post with a bit of passion. I've never had a problem with you, sorry you asked

Tipping point for threads that 'go too early' have well and truly been reached.

not if the effort is not followed up next week...