Well looks like Danger is off the table

Yes he is. Look at where his team sits on the ladder and he gets a game in that team every week. It's about playing a role in an elite team not just individual stats.

That's your definition of 'elite'? Gets a game for a strong side?

Not only is West Coast not yet 'elite' (they'd want to achieve something first before they get that mantle), even if they were he's not 'elite'. He's still learning how to play FFS!

Ruckmen from different drafts were being compared, more so to discuss the development and coming along of Gawn. A poster suggested NicNat to be elite, Gawns stats were simply compared with his to discuss if NicNat was really elite.

The Watts v Nicnat debate is a different issue, comparing picks 1 and 2 from the same draft.

All player comparisons will cease from here mein fuhrer!

I just think it's a bit early to go on big Max and use stats for an argument. He's a very different player to NikNat and not just in looks.

I'm happy to see Max take up the 1st ruck position and have been calling for him to play there even back at Casey. We were trying to make him into something he wasn't, a forward/ruck. Now he's been given the number 1 role he's really started to develop.

We also need to take into account in his current run in the AFL, 2 of those games were against undermanned ruck divisions. The game against the Lions was a good test against 2 good rucks, he had a good one. Let Max be Max, he's developing well now.

I've been really amazed by Nic Nat's improvement this year.

I've been a naysayer for a long time - doesn't take marks, doesn't influence play - but he's really starting to show a lot more than that.

Nic Nat is a show pony.

Compare him to Max Gawn this year.

NN marks per game 1.3 Gawn 4.5

NN hitouts 33.2 39.5

NN disposals 12.7 14.7

Supercoach score 103.8 113.8

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=19&pid1=3108&tid2=12&pid2=3346&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Nic Nat is a show pony.

Compare him to Max Gawn this year.

NN marks per game 1.3 Gawn 4.5

NN hitouts 33.2 39.5

NN disposals 12.7 14.7

Supercoach score 103.8 113.8

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=19&pid1=3108&tid2=12&pid2=3346&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Gawn's played 6 games. Those stats are heavily skewed.

I think Nic Nat is a gun. While he doesn't take many marks, he influences games significantly with his dominant centre bounce ruck work and pressure acts.

The fact that Max Gawn is being spoken of on the same page as Nic Nat says more about big Max. He has been sensational in the last five games except when he was beaten by Nic Nat.

Style - Luke Hodge?

If i was to pick one player in the comp that doesn't resemble Luke Hodge it'd be Jimmy Toumpas.

I think Luke Hodge is a unique talent. That makes Toumpas one of 791 players who don't resemble Luke Hodge.

People often talk about how stats can be meaningless and I think this is one of these instances. There is much more Nic Nat does that isn't captured by your run of the mill 'disposals, hit-outs, marks' etc statistics. Perhaps our opinions differ, which is fine, discussion is what a footy forum is for. But after watching most West Coast games this year I can comfortably say that Nic Nat is the 2nd best ruck in the comp behind only Goldstein. He is elite at what he does.

I might be misunderstanding, but if you think players peak at 25 then you are mistaken.

Name an elite player that wasn't already elite at the age of 25.

Gawn's played 6 games. Those stats are heavily skewed.

True, but there's no reason to think that Gawn's stats will grade out dramatically by the end of the season.

There’s no question that Gawn’s sample size is small by comparison to NicNat’s. It doesn’t mean you can’t extrapolate some meaningful observations from what he’s put up in that time.

NicNat will continue to be the most athletic big man in the competition and his clearance work is exceptional for a 200cm player. What he doesn’t have is the ability to read play well enough to get around the ground as a link up option ala Cox or marking forward option.

His best footy is going to be around the ball.

What we’ve seen from Gawn is the ability to link up, take multiple contested marks and be a presence around the ground. He won’t be the stoppage influence that NicNat is, but his tapwork has been very good all the same. His chase down tackles have also been impressive. There’s no reason to think that Gawn won’t be able to provide these things going forward, he should only improve from here. The traits and capabilities won't disappear, but trick is consistency.

Max Gawn would be a much better player if he could improve his goal kicking. It is a disgrace.

Gawn's played 6 games. Those stats are heavily skewed.

Adam if you think the figures are skewed it is because they don't suit your argument. The figures are average per game. 6, 15, 50 it is still an average.

Now you might argue it is too small a sample or we should compare the same period.

NN last 6 weeks (Max -6 games)

NN Disposals 12.83 Max 14.7

NN marks 1.8 Max 4.5

NN hitouts 35.6 Max 39.5

Max still wins. Ok what about at the same age

Disposals NN 12.4 Max 14.7

Marks NN 1.6 Max 4.5

Hitouts NN 21.9 Max 39.5

Max still wins! Nic Nat is a show pony, looks great but a mid range ruckman.

I think Nic Nat is a gun. While he doesn't take many marks, he influences games significantly with his dominant centre bounce ruck work and pressure acts.

The fact that Max Gawn is being spoken of on the same page as Nic Nat says more about big Max. He has been sensational in the last five games except when he was beaten by Nic Nat.

OK

Max's worst game for the season, is hardly a thrashing.

Disposals NN 9 Max 10

Marks NN 1 Max 3

Hitouts NN 36 Max 27

we should be trying to sign Garlo up till stumps. very important

player for the dees and highly rated amongst afl commentators such as the big Derm.

Was huge for us on sunday.

we should be trying to sign Garlo up till stumps. very important

player for the dees and highly rated amongst afl commentators such as the big Derm.

Was huge for us on sunday.

I hope our list management decisions are influenced by how highly commentators rate our players. Would like to see Garland stick around, but I doubt it will happen.

Meanwhile Ollie Wines getting BOGs while Jimmy is struggling in the VFL

We would be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for Jimmy right now, his hips are hung and he runs around like a headless chook and doesn't check his man at contests.

Just what we need, another Toumpas Bash!!

We already know these things!

Time to Move on!

Just what we need, another Toumpas Bash!!

We already know these things!

Time to Move on!

It isn't a bash, it is what it is.

This is a a thread about trades and Toumpas is a name which i think should be right up their with the names on the list.

Players either have it or they don't and it doesn't take long to see it. Brayshaw has it, Stretch has it, Hogan has it....all first year players and it is obvious.

Toumpas does not have it. 3rd year player.

Stretch is already doing the role which we got Toumpas for without all of the clangers and leaving his man to kick winning goals.

Just what we need, another Toumpas Bash!!

We already know these things!

Time to Move on!

Picket, I see you've changed your modus operandi. Now quoting and criticising others for attacking Toumpas. Clever, but your strategy has been noticed.

Looks like Jared Rivers will call it quits at the end of the year.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-07-21/rivers-runs-dry-as-cat-concedes-season-may-be-his-last-

Extract: "He (Rivers) said he was aware he needed seven games to reach the 200-game milestone..."It’s a big thing for some people, and for me, who has had an up and down career with injuries and also playing at two different clubs, I’d love to try and get to 200," Rivers said.

"It’s been a battle, but there’s still a chance to get there and it would be a proud moment for me."

Jared was a great servant of our club, gave his all in the worst of circumstances. As the 200 games mean so much to him, I hope his injuries stay away so the Cats can get him those 7 games.

Its a shame their last game isn't against us...we could give him an MCG farewell and beat the Cats, again!

Edited July 22, 201510 yr by Lucifer's Hero

Max Gawn would be a much better player if he could improve his goal kicking. It is a disgrace.

Not when compared to his team mates.

Not when compared to his team mates.

I find myself agreeing with you this afternoon Redleg

Gawn is in a group of about 30 poor goal kickers.

Motlop.

Let's get him.

Let's not waste our time and energy.

True, but there's no reason to think that Gawn's stats will grade out dramatically by the end of the season.

Theres no question that Gawns sample size is small by comparison to NicNats. It doesnt mean you cant extrapolate some meaningful observations from what hes put up in that time.

NicNat will continue to be the most athletic big man in the competition and his clearance work is exceptional for a 200cm player. What he doesnt have is the ability to read play well enough to get around the ground as a link up option ala Cox or marking forward option.

His best footy is going to be around the ball.

What weve seen from Gawn is the ability to link up, take multiple contested marks and be a presence around the ground. He wont be the stoppage influence that NicNat is, but his tapwork has been very good all the same. His chase down tackles have also been impressive. Theres no reason to think that Gawn wont be able to provide these things going forward, he should only improve from here. The traits and capabilities won't disappear, but trick is consistency.

This is exactly why using such a small sample size is flawed. I'm certainly not saying Max won't continue to improve, just that it's laughable to say right now he's as good as or better than Nik Nat, after playing only two dominant games against unrecognised/no named ruckmen and a one very good game against Brisbane.

And for the record, I used to think Nik Nat was overhyped and he was, but now I've adjusted my views because I've used my eyes and seen his influence on games this year. To be clear, I think his impact was marginal last year. This year, he's become an instrumental part of West Coast's dominant midfield.

Edited July 22, 201510 yr by AdamFarr

we should be trying to sign Garlo up till stumps. very important

player for the dees and highly rated amongst afl commentators such as the big Derm.

Was huge for us on sunday.

So we should place stock in what Dermie says? Let's sign players up on that basis. Come on.