That's a pretty good start! If he can go close to breaking even in the hit outs he will become a gun ruckman because he is great when the ball hits the deck.

What about the things that would ACTUALLY make him a star, like kicking, marking, reading the play? He's no natural at any of those, and I hope he'll learn them, but at the moment he's a willing unknown.

Of course I watched the game

Fact: A 27 minute game by a sub who gets the ball 6 times is normally judged a certain way

For various reasons Toumpas' game is judged differently

Toumpas was a rabbit in the headlights. His game was terrible whether he was pick 4 or pick 400. To not be able to work his way through the 2 v 1 near the goalsquare is really worrying for a guy entering his 3rd season following a "perfect pre-season".

Edited April 7, 201510 yr by Watts Jurrah Dunn?

He will always be the first marked man. Sorry 'Andrew' but oppo coaches will know who is most dangerous and for me it is Hogan and Watts ahead of Dawes.

No problem with that - then Dawes gets the the third best defender as opposed to the best defender he was getting all last season.

Toumpas is the logical one to come out for Vince. Mid for mid. The difficulty is who goes to being the sub. My thoughts are it will be one of Salem or Brayshaw, JKH is a possibility as well.

Dawes is the tough one, all our talls performed well over the weekend. Even though Frost wasn't massively prominent he did what Roos asked of him, he competed, worked hard, and was very good at the two way running. He also provides the option of second ruck, I would prefer Dawes not be used in that way.

Salem has the hallmarks of being the coaches pet project in the backline so they will have to get pretty spooked to walk away from that so soon.

Kent is an interesting one, they nursed him through the NAB challenge to get him to Rd 1 so they rate him - but he was shaken up and wouldn't have been in the top 15 players - which isn't to say he played badly.

No problem with that - then Dawes gets the the third best defender as opposed to the best defender he was getting all last season.

Yes, it is handy to have multiple talls, assuming the balance is correct...

Another thing is that Hogan got a few 'hit and hope' kicks on his head that I would much prefer Dawes be under.

I just can't see Dawes or Vince being left out - if they are fit to play, they would play if I was coaching. Such a young team, and best 22 players available to help a 20 year old CHF and a very shallow midfield? It just seems a no-brainer to include them.

What about the things that would ACTUALLY make him a star, like kicking, marking, reading the play? He's no natural at any of those, and I hope he'll learn them, but at the moment he's a willing unknown.

He is a bit similar to Stefan Martin, who ranked 3rd in the AFL for Dream Team points per game in 2014 and 14th for Supercoach points per game.

Salem has the hallmarks of being the coaches pet project in the backline so they will have to get pretty spooked to walk away from that so soon.

Kent is an interesting one, they nursed him through the NAB challenge to get him to Rd 1 so they rate him - but he was shaken up and wouldn't have been in the top 15 players - which isn't to say he played badly.

I think this might be a Goodwin thing. From memory he started off as a HB before moving into the midfield when he matured.

Toumpas was a rabbit in the headlights. His game was terrible whether he was pick 4 or pick 400. To not be able to work his way through the 2 v 1 near the goalsquare is really worrying for a guy entering his 3rd season following a "perfect pre-season".

I understand what you're saying but you and others are missing my point

I'm looking for a consistent argument, not a selective one.

By the way, reading between the lines on that Roos mini presser, I can possibly see an unchanged line-up.

For all the BS about the first round means nothing it clearly means a lot. Our team now thinks it can play and better still every player knows a shocker means a stint at Casey.

We will pick a team based on balance against GWS. I went to the game last year and we went in too top heavy. Both JHK and Jeffy caused headaches at times for GC and I'd liKE to see them both stay in. Kent did less than JHK overall by a whisker. If Dawes was not available there would be no changes.

Frost is being used as our back up ruck and general utility so stays in that role. Brayshaw only goes out if its clear he cant run out a game as he was a real contributor.

After seeing Ablett limp around with a bad shoulder I think Vince should have another round at Casey to make sure he is absolutely right for a return. It would be nice to run Toumpas with Scully to give him confidence but he is the likely out. No changes to our settled backline.

Possible outs: Kent (or Toumpas).

In: Dawes

If we repeat our performance I will have no idea how to get Vince into the team.

By the way, reading between the lines on that Roos mini presser, I can possibly see an unchanged line-up.

I read it the same way Macca...if ain't broken don't change it type of thinking.

We will pick a team based on balance against GWS. I went to the game last year and we went in too top heavy. Both JHK and Jeffy caused headaches at times for GC and I'd liKE to see them both stay in. Kent did less than JHK overall by a whisker. If Dawes was not available there would be no changes.

I don't really want either of them out, but I think Kent had a more defensive role on Malceski and performed it really well, and still provided a bit of danger in attack. I would guess that the coaches would have rated Kent's game better than JKH.

Salem has the hallmarks of being the coaches pet project in the backline so they will have to get pretty spooked to walk away from that so soon.

Kent is an interesting one, they nursed him through the NAB challenge to get him to Rd 1 so they rate him - but he was shaken up and wouldn't have been in the top 15 players - which isn't to say he played badly.

I don't think there's any chance Salem will go, Roos will want to keep a settled back 6 and although Salem was quiet he didn't do a lot wrong.

Kent had the defensive job on Malceski and Shaw would certainly be a target for this week. I've got no idea really. It's hard. It's good.

I think Toumpas will go for Dawes with Kent sub. Vince will be given another week and if ok in for Crows.

I am hopeful for jimmy t but he was terrible with his disposal.

He just seems such a nervous boy.

IMO it could all turn around with a breakout game.

Not to mention he had the job on AA half back Malceski who played one of the worst games he's ever played.

After watching the replay it's quite clear that Toumpas and JKH will make way for Dawes and Vince.

Malceski played badly so Kent gets credit for it, interesting

My honest opinion on Toumpas is that he may not become an A grade player but they were never my expectations.

He could, however, become a good or very good player for us but he needs that opportunity

Many others on our list have been afforded that opportunity and many have come up short ... some are looking like they are turning their respective career's around (finally)

Seriously think the people saying if Dawes comes in we are too tall are delusional.

Too tall means too many big slow immobile dinosaurs, who will get run away from. There is absolutely nothing immobile about our big blokes. Dawes is known as one of the hardest running KPF's out there. Hogan and frost both move bloody well as well. VDB and Watts as mobile midsize with garlett and kent/jkh making up the fwd mix is a good combo of size, speed footy smarts and will have any slightly underdone backs absolutely [censored] themselves at the thought of it, with the improved midfield able to give it to advantage

exactly. Just because we won last week all of a sudden some folks reckon our forwardline is model of perfection that must not be tampered with. However it changes, Dawes is an improvement on it.

exactly. Just because we won last week all of a sudden some folks reckon our forwardline is model of perfection that must not be tampered with. However it changes, Dawes is an improvement on it.

We did kick 17 goals last week, which was was three more than any game last year. Adding another tall into the forward line will definitely harm the balance of the side. Hence the dilemma.

I can't believe people are calling for JHK to be dropped.

He was so influential, and had a much better game than Kent for example (which makes sense since he didn't get knocked in the head!).

There is no way he should be dropped, he's quick, smart and has great disposal. We need all those attributes against a gun GWS midfield.

I think we are more likely to drop a tall in Frost, especially given the weather conditions this week, than a small.

Wish we had the luxury of leaving Dawes out, because realistically he'll only get a game this week on reputation. He has done little to command a spot, and guys like Frost, vandenBerg and Hogan worked their arse off this week and over the NAB Cup to impress and earn their spot in the side. Dawes has done little over the past 2 years, but he's going to get a game because "he's a tall experience KPF". Hardly seems fair, and he's one lucky guy!

harm the balance

harm it, or just change it, possibly for the better? One would think having your best forward in the forwardline is a good thing

Watching Hogan it was apparent at times he got himself a bit lost, Dawes forward would add a lot of experience and leadership to a relatively young forward line.

It is tough to pick isn't it? Harder coz of personnel but mainly due to not having a quality second ruck option.

Dawes comes in, no doubt in my mind. He was the catalyst behind most of wins last year. Amazing pressure and hardness.

If I had to pick it would be Toump and brayshaw out. Both unlucky. Brayshaw especially but he only had 9 touches and is a kid whose played 4 games on the trot. Take it easy with him. He hasn't yet earned being picked ahead of senior pros like Dawes and cross.

Only issue could be is this going in too tall?

well his 9 possessions are misleading

he had 2 frees awarded him where play on was called for another player

he also played on after chopping arms given against russian and was about to goal when play on was disallowed

additionally he only played 3 quarters with a fair amount of bench time

he was also playing as a small fwd - hard place for high possessions

he also did great work with 9 tackles and some smart shepherding

take all this into account and his possession count wasn't too bad

add all this up and his disposal count was ok

if he is fit i'd be playing him and managing his time.

gotta reward a good performance, especially first up

gotta reward a good performance, especially first up

gotta try to win the game of football more like it

gotta try to win the game of football more like it

?

are you saying playing well performed players is not going to win games of football?

he earns his place and he is all upside

The "balance" issue really comes down to how Dawes and Hogan work together. Do they get in each others way, or create space to run into? They've only ever played 3 games together. This synergy is a big factor in how good we can become.

Also on Frost, if Dawes comes in, expect Frost to play upfield more as a traditional ruck rover. He would be the ultimate tall midfielder with his pace and strength. Can they mould him into a winger or Centre?