THE MATCH: NET GAIN IN THE WEST

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Paleo CB?

Doubt it, it's been that way for a long time.

[WERRIDEE 5,346]

Posters making definitive statements like this just show their ignorance.What because he copped a knock and was subbed out???

I know he copped a knock to the head and I already posted why I thought he needed to lift his endurance but as someone already said his poor chase could just be put down due to the heat and he doesn't have a problem.

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

Honestly my hope watching this match was just to find that we weren't totally inept. Sometimes I believe that the problems of this football club are so ingrained and so unsolvable no matter how good the coaching, facilities or administration we will remain firmly glued to the bottom of the ladder, for ever

So whilst this was just a practice match and, yes, some of our skills were horribly reminiscent of our 2013 selves, I don't think anyone can deny there were signs of football life. And let's face it playing an almost full strength Freo side at home is a tough assignment for a top 8 team let alone a perennial cellar dweller like us. For almost whole quarters there were signs that our 26 representatives actually knew how to play AFL football.

On what is a tragically small sample size and which will no doubt be proved completely wrong next week, I believe, we may have a few different things to look forward to this year.

Ben Newton. Ok, so less than two quarters of a practice match form to go by but we have possibly added another member to join Jones, Tyson and Vince as AFL standard centre square mids. 13 possessions, 6 of those contested, 2 clearances and one goal is a handy contribution before retiring hurt with a sore face. I wanted to find out the name of the fourth horseman of the apocalypse and start calling him that but perhaps will wait for him to play a full match

Some Centre Square dominance. If you are anything like me when the ump bounces the ball I just naturally turn to look at the oppositions forward line. It hasn't been since we were talking up Brent Moloney for All Australian selection that we consistently won it out of the middle (and doesn't that seem like a long time ago). We won first bounce clearances 10/5 on Thursday night

Garlett. Not a wonderful game from Jeffy but there will be some opposition defenders who are normally used to casually strolling out of our backline who will find life a fair bit tougher this year. I think he, Hogan, JKH and Dawes could become a formidable hunting group.

Hogan. You sort of know already that whichever defender gets the job of playing on Jesse is in for a fairly miserable day. The kid is aggressive and won't take a backward step. He has genuine attitude. I'm a Tom McDonald fan but I would love it if he had some of Hogans grunt. Matching anti-social CHB and CHF bookends, along with a winning midfield would signal a new beginning for us.

Inside 50's. We won these as well on Thursday. As Roos said we didn't win this stat too often last year. Hopefully a sign of things to come

Lumumba. Ultra consistent. Has played every and all 253 games available over the last five years (or something like that). Like his B & F result from last year was one of his teams best four this week. Same player, new jumper, will make us better

Frosty. There are going to be times where he streams through the centre of the G and does something brilliant and there will be times where the same run ends in tears. Either way it will be exciting to watch.

Yes, I know that it will all probably come crashing down in seven days time when we play the Bulldogs in Ballarat but up till then I will remain optimistic about this year. We definitely will improve, I suppose it just remains to be seen by how much.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

The difference is if I criticise a player it is because he is one of the "easy targets" or because I am "glass half empty" or I am a "player basher"

If you do it it is legitimate because you have have had a few words with Christian Salem now and then about the soccer.

I know that you won't get it, never have, never will. I would not give you the credit to be able to hold an objective discussion about footy, you'd probably call me a "lemon sucker". You are incapable of objectivity. You have said it yourself. I am over your bullying and elevated sense of importance.

My opinion is not always correct, but I will back it up if I am asked why, a lot of posters tend to just resort to well everybody else it saying it, so it must be right, one in particular I didn't think Grimes played that badly, he was just a solid but ordinary like a few others on the night, because I refuse to join in the public lynching, some posters don't like it

Bullying, you are joking right, if you can't stand the heat of a public forum, then I suggest you find another outlet

Matt Jones just sat in his back. It was terrible technique. He also gave away another 3 or 4 free kicks for too high, where a loose arm of his in a soft attempted tackle made high contact.

He has no idea how to tackle and it's because he tries to protect himself and he has no grunt.

He may be inexperienced at AFL level but he's not a young man, if he isn't willing to play with some conviction then he shouldn't be out there. And that goes for Grimes, Garland and others.

No he didn't, exaggeration is not justification, but hey it that is the best you have got, will have to accept it, it was a normal in the back given these days, Matt Jones tried to get the guy staying to the side, as soon as the player felt the pressure he flopped forward

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

I have sliced some of your post and it could be argued this puts statements out of context.

Its difficult to argue with you BB because you happily change sides in an argument to spice things up.

However lately just as my pet peeves include Jamar McKenzie and Grimes, you have some yourself, which you seem passionate about.

You have always disliked Dunn and have called him a coward more than once. You defend Grimes and McKenzie to the point that I suspect you sponsor one or both. You bring Dean Bailey into topics where no one had mentioned him or his era.

Like Saty you toe the line for your boys, which is admirable.

Your arguments have been thought provoking and witty.

I dont include the above. I also didnt include where you said McKenzie played his role to perfection because I had to read it twice.

No we don't, we just watch training and games without predetermined impressions of players, and treat each game separately

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

You'll have to excuse the old school quoting but I don't know how to do multi quotes on my phone. I'll try and address your post in it's entirety rather than take a small snippet and ignore the rest that doesn't suit your version of what you want to make out my position is. A number of times you made points in favour of those I already had.

"This is where I get frustrated. As a result of our discussion I went and looked at a replay of the first three quarters to see if in fact I'd got it completely wrong. I tried to focus, as far as I could, on who was playing on who and how they went. It's very hard on TV but you can pick up some things.

In the first Grimes seemed to play on Mayne from what I could see. Of course with rotations and the such this isn't a "24/7" thing but that's what I saw. Mayne was pretty much kickless in the first quarter as was Grimes."

As I said earlier I'm not sure who Grimes was playing on outside of the specific part I mentioned, when Freo turned the game in the second, because they seemed to be rotating on and off players a lot and it is hard to be sure on TV. You have even acknowledged this yet are happy to give him credit for keeping Mayne quiet although your not quite sure he was on him. It seems we both agree he offered no rebound.

"In the second I watch specifically for Walters and Grimes. Walters had two meaningful possessions in that quarter. One was when we turned the ball over in the centre when Pedersen dropped a regulation chest mark and Hill gathered the ball and speared a pass to Walters who goaled."

Walters had more than two possessions in the second but let's deal with the two you acknowledge were meaningful and that we seem to agree Grimes was on him at the time. The dropped mark happened in the middle of the ground. Grimes and Walters were not involved in the play where the turnover occurred so he couldn't be excused for setting up an attacking move which can kill a defender. They were both deep and although Walters had space to lead into Grimes was not even close enough to Walters to apply any pressure and Walters took the easiest of marks. Turnovers happen, especially for us, If Grimes can not keep up with him on the lead he should play in front or find another way, that was too easy for Walters.

"The second was when Hill again had the ball in the centre well clear and kicked to Walters who was corralled by Grimes but was good enough to gather the bouncing ball and get a really good pass away to Pavlich. It was really good play by Walters and I'd imagine Roos would suggest Grimes did the right thing in staying goal side of Walters and not letting the ball go over the back with Walters running into space and goal. Stinga really good forwards to this sort of thing. Rioli, Wingard, Gray, Ballantyne and Gartlett amongst others do it for a living. They do it on all opponents from time to time because they are exceptional footballers."

If that's what you thInk Roos would say then I don't think you know his style of play very well. He would say why did Grimes give Walters so much space and why was he not right on his hammer applying pressure. Again Walters lead Grimes to the ball by some margin so much so that it didn't matter that Hills pass to him was terrible. He had time to slow down, yes slow down, and gather the bouncing ball and turn Grimes inside out. Grimes didn't corrall him he got there too late, that why Walters slipped past him. In the end he did turn goal side and ran into space towards goal. What was special by Walters was the pass to Pav. The lack or pressure applied by Grimes was poor and I'm surprised that you think Roos would be at all happy with this play.

Your right though that's what good small forwards will do...but only if you give them the time and space to do that. It's why many go missing in grand finals. The good defenders apply this sort of pressure for a living.

"I get Grimes is the new DL whipping boy and I'm not arguing that he's flying and isn't under pressure for his spot. My belief is that people have predetermined ideas on players and when they watch a game they let these ideas frame how they see their performance. Grimes did nothing wrong in either of those pieces of play. Pedersen did and I'd imagine Cross did because again from what I could see he was tagging Hill. And in the second piece of play nobody mentioned that Pav's opponent didn't cover him and was instrumental to us losing the game."

Your first sentence here is not what you have been saying at all and is my main issue with you. You have been quick to tell all that anyone that thinks Grimes in not in the 22 that they are just plain wrong. Of course it's good you finally acknowledge there is pressure on his spot. Is surprising however you have come to that conclusion if his game is as solid as you say it is.

As for your line on having a predetermined idea of a player, my predetermined idea of Grimes is that he is a good player. But I am no longer able to reconcile that with his output. It's what I am actually seeing not what I hope to be seeing. As I have already mentioned he is a favourite of mine and I would love him to be in the best 22.

Pav was without a doubt another factor in Freos win. But if we take your approach with the first play then it was Walters gather up the ground to easily get around Grimes that was the issue and not the player supposed to be covering Pav...no wait that doesn't work for you does it...

"Another classic example is McKenzie's game. He basically didn't make a mistake. He kept his opponent goalless and didn't make a disposal mistake. He had one free kick awarded against him when someone handballed to his feet and he was tackled in gathering the ball and pinged. But if you read the comments after the game day thread you'd think he'd committed murder. He's not a creative player and never will be. We all know this and Roos knows it. Roos wants McKenzie to play his role which he did to perfection but he got no credit from the DL critics. Again I'm not arguing McKenzie is a first 22 player, I don't think he is but he does deserve credit for playing well. What we got was all the McKenzie haters using the game to say he's no good. That isn't what happened on the day."

You keep bring up McKenzie. I have already said he was not on in the second when we got done and I don't have an issue with him because if your not going to be a good user of the ball you better be bloody good at shutting down an opponent and I always have confidence he can do that. Sadly with Grimes I don't have this confidence in him anymore.

"With favourites and villains which we all have it's very hard to see their games in an unbiased way. Mo64 dislikes players and focuses on their mistakes to prove his point. He never mentions or perhaps sees the good things they do. I reckon Dunn is a very overrated player and I thought he was terrible but I didn't say so and when I watched the game again he did basically what Grimes and McKenzie did. He stopped his opponent and did little else."

As you only see Grime does no wrong.

"The only comfort we all have is it matters diddly squat what we think and those with much more knowledge than us will make the decisions."

Agreed. With Grimes stepping down from the captaincy those with the knowledge are aware his output is below par and are attempting to address it.

"We'll see what happens with Grimes. If he's as bad as you say there is no way Roos will pick him."

I think as a senior player and leader the spot in the 22 is his to lose. Some good performances in the next couple of games and he will be in. But he is on thin ice and needs to improve.

"Anyway whilst you think I ignore the evidence in front of me I'd suggest you are guilty of exactly that. But it doesn't actually matter a damn."

I think we can agree to disagree on the first sentence but agree on the last

Edited March 7, 2015 by s-t-i-n-g-a

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

No he didn't, exaggeration is not justification, but hey it that is the best you have got, will have to accept it, it was a normal in the back given these days, Matt Jones tried to get the guy staying to the side, as soon as the player felt the pressure he flopped forward

I will be watching this one again closely, as when I watched the game the first time (and when they replayed the free kick - or maybe I did) it looked like one of the clumsiest free kick you would see. Matt was standing over the Freo player and jumped straight into his back by my recollection.

Will watch it again as I can't for the life of me recall Jones staying to the side

[jnrmac 19,890]

I will be watching this one again closely, as when I watched the game the first time (and when they replayed the free kick - or maybe I did) it looked like one of the clumsiest free kick you would see. Matt was standing over the Freo player and jumped straight into his back by my recollection.

Will watch it again as I can't for the life of me recall Jones staying to the side

Thats how I saw it as well. Dumb frustrating football

[jnrmac 19,890]

My opinion is not always correct, but I will back it up if I am asked why, a lot of posters tend to just resort to well everybody else it saying it, so it must be right, one in particular I didn't think Grimes played that badly, he was just a solid but ordinary like a few others on the night, because I refuse to join in the public lynching, some posters don't like it

Bullying, you are joking right, if you can't stand the heat of a public forum, then I suggest you find another outlet

No he didn't, exaggeration is not justification, but hey it that is the best you have got, will have to accept it, it was a normal in the back given these days, Matt Jones tried to get the guy staying to the side, as soon as the player felt the pressure he flopped forward

You forgot the bit about when the Jones jumped into his back.

[Juicebox 628]

In fairness, I'm just as critical of Toumpas so I am a massive hypocrite. I can just see more potential in Gawn.

I was being sarcastic. I am firmly in the same camp as you regarding Gawn. I think there's a fair few here on demonland that need to be a bit more patient with the big fella.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

You forgot the bit about when the Jones jumped into his back.

Thats how I saw it as well. Dumb frustrating football

All I can is we must be referring to separate incidents, I can only find one instance when Jones gave away a goal for in the back, and he definitely did not 'jump' into the opponents back

[Wiseblood 24,637]

All I can is we must be referring to separate incidents, I can only find one instance when Jones gave away a goal for in the back, and he definitely did not 'jump' into the opponents back

He tackled the bloke and allowed his momentum to push him into the turf. It may not have been a jump but it was terribly clumsy.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

because I refuse to join in the public lynching

A public lynching?

Because the majority see it in a way that you refuse to?

Righto.