Howe - back or forward?

[Grimes Times 1,278]

Back for mine. In 2013 he copped plenty on DL for being lazy and unaccountable up forward. Had a much better year in 2014.

As TMac notes will only improve his defensive skills with more time down back and if he does i think he can play a similar role to Gibson.

Also whlst his set shots are average his field kicking is generally pretty good - long and accurate, which is crucial for us coming out of the back half.

TMac sounded pretty unequivocal about him playing back.

Gibson has the easiest job in the AFL. Third man up/loose defender in the premiership team as per Maxwell. Not hard to do or look good doing it.

A job Howe could play very easy although id have him forward when we are premiers!!!!

[The Chazz 4,077]

You make it sound like he was an abject failure as a backman this season. I don't think he was and I don't believe the coaching staff do either judging by his finish in the bluey. ( take into account that he was putrid before he was switched to the backline)

Not at all. Nutbean. I've merely highlighted his negatives, rather than ramping his positives. He needs to improve his worst, so that the gap between it and his best isn't as great. I look at the season highlights clip that someone posted on Youtube. Howe appeared a few times taking a screamer. There is also footage of Grimes spoiling Dangerfield. It's Grimes' play that Howe needs to add to his own highlight reel, not just big marks (a lot of them in junk time too I might add).

The other thing that I am suffering from is buying in to this rumour of a potential offer from GWS for Pick 7 (or whatever it was). If we were offered that and rejected it, my expectation of Howe goes up immensely.

I find it funny how some are willing to give Howe some time to develop as a HBF, now that we have decent coaches, yet someone like Terlich, who I think will make a better HBF, isn't allowed the same luxury.

[beelzebub 22,265]

Just out of interest would there be any validity in supposing the various moves of players around the ground is part of their football tuition. It's development. Its also something somewhat foreign to us so maybe its gone under the radar.

Just a thought

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

Gibson has the easiest job in the AFL. Third man up/loose defender in the premiership team as per Maxwell. Not hard to do or look good doing it.

A job Howe could play very easy although id have him forward when we are premiers!!!!

I disagree that this position is the easiest position in the AFL any more dependent on circumstance. Now days the players that play in Gibsons or Maxwells role are forced to be more accountable and do not often rely on the outnumber but rather choose the time when to leave their opponent or work on a match up "with the weakest forward". This is easy to do against poor teams but these players become crucified by quick ball use and the better skilled teams that identify this match up. This is a long time ago but one i specifically remember was a game in which rivers played for Melbourne against Collingwood and he was consistently dragged into one on ones with his opponent, Cloke and could well have been Dawes and was consistently beaten.

Gibson played on Franklin for the majority of the grandfinal and whilst he found the football Franklin looked to be the only winner for Sydney. Especially considering that Gibson rarely plays the loose man role due to his size and they rely more so on Suckling or Birchall for it.

[JV7 2,339]

He needs to play forward.. Our forward line needs him more than our backline. With Dawes and hogan there he should get the 3rd defender. Not to mention I think his decision making out of defence can at times be ify and he is a good at taking the intercept marks down there but sometimes goes for marks more so then the punch. He's a natural forward

Edited December 10, 2014 by JV7

[beelzebub 22,265]

I keep getting the image of the little girl in the Taco ad shrugging and asking , why not do both ?

Howe could be utilised in defence and exert his forward abilities by being played as a Wing.

Best of both worlds.. He can mark, he can kick and he can run bloody quick!!

why not ?

[nutbean 8,837]

I find it funny how some are willing to give Howe some time to develop as a HBF, now that we have decent coaches, yet someone like Terlich, who I think will make a better HBF, isn't allowed the same luxury.

I don't think Howes disposal is fantastic but in my eyes it is far superior to Terlich which I see as his main flaw.

What I like about Terlich is he gets to where the ball is but I see the major difference between us and top clubs ( besides lots of talented footballers) is disposal. We turn it over way too much and I think Terlich is a much bigger part of that problem than Howe is.

[old55 21,422]

Not at all. Nutbean. I've merely highlighted his negatives, rather than ramping his positives. He needs to improve his worst, so that the gap between it and his best isn't as great. I look at the season highlights clip that someone posted on Youtube. Howe appeared a few times taking a screamer. There is also footage of Grimes spoiling Dangerfield. It's Grimes' play that Howe needs to add to his own highlight reel, not just big marks (a lot of them in junk time too I might add).

The other thing that I am suffering from is buying in to this rumour of a potential offer from GWS for Pick 7 (or whatever it was). If we were offered that and rejected it, my expectation of Howe goes up immensely.

I find it funny how some are willing to give Howe some time to develop as a HBF, now that we have decent coaches, yet someone like Terlich, who I think will make a better HBF, isn't allowed the same luxury.

Coaching staff clearly don't share your view - Howe finished 6th in B&F playing in the backline after a very ordinary start in the forward line. I'll be very surprised if he's not playing in our backline this year.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Coaching staff clearly don't share your view - Howe finished 6th in B&F playing in the backline after a very ordinary start in the forward line. I'll be very surprised if he's not playing in our backline this year.

Not sure about anyone else, but using a position outside the Top 3 in a B&F result, especially ours over the past 7 years, contributes nothing to an argument. It'd be like me using the fact that Cross played 5 games less than Howe, and finished higher than him. And also that basically half of the Top 10 were defenders, as opposed to Hawthorn who had, at most, 3 defenders in their Top 10.

Isn't our B&F voting system designed that everyone gets a vote that plays? Thus favouring players that play all 22 games.

If we were a finals team and he's still in 6th spot, that's when I'll agree that he is the player that some think he is.

[nutbean 8,837]

Not sure about anyone else, but using a position outside the Top 3 in a B&F result, especially ours over the past 7 years, contributes nothing to an argument. It'd be like me using the fact that Cross played 5 games less than Howe, and finished higher than him. And also that basically half of the Top 10 were defenders, as opposed to Hawthorn who had, at most, 3 defenders in their Top 10.

Isn't our B&F voting system designed that everyone gets a vote that plays? Thus favouring players that play all 22 games.

If we were a finals team and he's still in 6th spot, that's when I'll agree that he is the player that some think he is.

Not sure I agree with the logic.

B&F's will always favor players that play in all 22 games but you still have to play well enough in any game you play to register a vote.

I also don't agree with the distinction you have made between a finals team and us - if you are the 6th best player in your team then you are the 6th best player in the team.

The biggest pointer IMO to the coaching panels thinking is their refusal to move Howe forward last year when a few games were in the balance. They threw Dunn forward a few times and Pedersen went back and forward but they stuck with Howe back when I would have pinch hit with in the forward line in the last quarter of a few games.

edit - i researched the B&F system and each player gets a score between 1-10 by a panel of 4 so indeed it does favor players who play in the most games - if you average out the scores based on games played the only real difference is Cross would have come 2nd in the voting and Nev Jetta would have shot into 5th place. So Howe would have moved down one place.

Edited December 15, 2014 by nutbean

[The Chazz 4,077]

Not sure I agree with the logic.

B&F's will always favor players that play in all 22 games but you still have to play well enough in any game you play to register a vote.

I also don't agree with the distinction you have made between a finals team and us - if you are the 6th best player in your team then you are the 6th best player in the team.

The biggest pointer IMO to the coaching panels thinking is their refusal to move Howe forward last year when a few games were in the balance. They threw Dunn forward a few times and Pedersen went back and forward but they stuck with Howe back when I would have pinch hit with in the forward line in the last quarter of a few games.

They left Howe back as he is a liability up forward. When you're behind, you have to kick goals to win. With Dunn, you know he'll hit 100% of the contests, with Howe, not so much.

I'm spent with this topic. I think Howe is overrated, some of you don't. Nothing will change my mind other than what I see Howe do on the field. I do wish him luck in 2015 and beyond, and I sincerely hope he will prove me wrong.

[jnrmac 19,202]

I find it funny how some are willing to give Howe some time to develop as a HBF, now that we have decent coaches, yet someone like Terlich, who I think will make a better HBF, isn't allowed the same luxury.

Wow. Terlich has courage but decision making and skills are deplorable.

Howe's talent is a million light years away frm Terlich.

[nutbean 8,837]

Wow. Terlich has courage but decision making and skills are deplorable.

Howe's talent is a million light years away frm Terlich.

I think Howe has a lot of improvement in him that either will or won't come to light.

But spot on in the difference between he and Terlich.

(actually I think Terlich's decision making on when to stay with his man, when to attack the contest solo or peel off is very good - but when he gets the pill in his hands - uggh.)

[nutbean 8,837]

They left Howe back as he is a liability up forward. When you're behind, you have to kick goals to win. With Dunn, you know he'll hit 100% of the contests, with Howe, not so much.

Agreed he was poor forward this season but doesn't it follow that if he proved to be the same "liability" back then he would have gone to Casey ?

[old55 21,422]

They left Howe back as he is a liability up forward. When you're behind, you have to kick goals to win. With Dunn, you know he'll hit 100% of the contests, with Howe, not so much.

I'm spent with this topic. I think Howe is overrated, some of you don't. Nothing will change my mind other than what I see Howe do on the field. I do wish him luck in 2015 and beyond, and I sincerely hope he will prove me wrong.

I agree with you to the extent that I think Howe is better down back than up forward and that's why I started the thread - 90% of posters have Howe in the forward line for R1 2015 and there seems to be no real pointers to that at all. He played better in the backline last year and apparently he's training with the backs and Tom Mac named him in that group.

I also agree that Howe is over-rated by many. He has many areas for improvement but I think he has the capacity to improve. That's not the essence of the thread - it's which area is he going to play in.

[juzzk1d 1,354]

Let me pose this question to the public.. If Howe wasn't a high flying marker, would he even be in our starting team?

[Ethan Tremblay 28,470]

Let me pose this question to the public.. If Howe wasn't a high flying marker, would he even be in our starting team?

But he is.

You could ask the same question about any player who excels in a certain area.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Ethan Tremblay

[The Chazz 4,077]

Agreed he was poor forward this season but doesn't it follow that if he proved to be the same "liability" back then he would have gone to Casey ?

I am done on this topic, Nutbean, but I will answer your question.

Who was able to replace him?

The mantra of 2014 was to not gift games to players, and they had to show consistent form at Casey to "qualify" for the seniors. I don't recall many HBF at Casey that qualified for senior selection.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I agree with you to the extent that I think Howe is better down back than up forward and that's why I started the thread - 90% of posters have Howe in the forward line for R1 2015 and there seems to be no real pointers to that at all. He played better in the backline last year and apparently he's training with the backs and Tom Mac named him in that group.

I also agree that Howe is over-rated by many. He has many areas for improvement but I think he has the capacity to improve. That's not the essence of the thread - it's which area is he going to play in.

I apologise for taking your thread off-topic a bit, Fifty-5. I guess I was just challenging that there should be more options other than "forward or back", such as "interchange", "substitute" or "Casey".

[daisycutter 28,636]

I apologise for taking your thread off-topic a bit, Fifty-5. I guess I was just challenging that there should be more options other than "forward or back", such as "interchange", "substitute" or "Casey".

billy, as far as i'm concerned interchange is no different than starting 18

they are just as much a part of the forwards/backs/mids as the others

they typically have similar amount of game time so the distinction is moot

Edited December 16, 2014 by daisycutter

[nutbean 8,837]

I am done on this topic, Nutbean, but I will answer your question.

Who was able to replace him?

The mantra of 2014 was to not gift games to players, and they had to show consistent form at Casey to "qualify" for the seniors. I don't recall many HBF at Casey that qualified for senior selection.

This I agree with 100%.

The mantra of not gifting games in 2014 was all well and good but the problem is that we didn't have too many players banging the door down at Casey to replace players who were playing just ok in the seniors.

We desperately need MFC listed Casey footballers to step up so we can really live the mantra of no gifted games.

[Ted Lasso 16,931]

If pick 7 was offererd for Howe I am shocked we didn't take it.

[Little Goffy 12,726]

More involved in the back half.

Lots of intercept marks and spoils.

I like him back with a pinch hit forward if required.

Yep, it surprised me but he did seem to find good form and play a good team role back there.

I can't help comparing Howe to Andrew Walker at Carlton. Similar capabilities, similar issues with where to play.

Despite many injury issues, Walker has become a very good AFL player who is occasionally great, and I'd have no issues if the comparison held out for a full 200+ game career.

And if some seasons we need to turn Howe fullly to the forward line and he kicks 50 goals, that'd be ok too.

[Grimes is Great 183]

Howe & Grimes will be starting back flankers.

Lumumba to play wing / midfield.