If it's fewer players to choose from, I support the earlier post that points out the number of players required to support 18 teams is from a population significantly larger than the population which supported 12 teams. You could drill down further and point out that when it was a 12 team competition, the talent pool was only the southern States plus NT. Today it includes NSW and Queensland (as well as Ireland).

Its not about how many people live in the country it is about how many people play aussie rules. The numbers of boys playing Aussie rules is dropping in direct correlation to the increasing participation rates in other sports.

Remember the discussion is about elite level talent. To develop elite athletes you need a pyramid. The ones at the top rise up and come from all the other levels. Its all about numbers. Of course you can pump heaps of money into a small number of players and hop one makes it but without a large ongoing pool it is a one off.

The point about professional sporting comps is a very good one. In 1992 (the year c&b chose to illustrate his point) AFL had probably only been a fully professional sport for 5 years and since then the demands have exponentially grown (ie commitment, athletic requirements, levels of fitness etc etc) and the game has become much more about aerobic capacity. In short AFL now demands elite athletes not just very good footy players who could play their position really well.

In 1992 teams could and did carry players who would not get a game today. Does anyone think Allen Jackovich would get a a game these days, even with his brilliance? Here is the MFC list from 1992. Many of those players would not get a game today, even with the advanced training (or perhaps because of the huge increase in training demands) as they either would not have the required athleticism or the 24/7 commitment and dedication demanded in modern footy

In 1992 there was no local fully professional union or soccer comps, the NBL was faltering and there was not nearly the same amount of money in cricket. In the southern states AFL had the first call on most of the elite players. This is simply not the case now.

Edited July 18, 201411 yr by binman

Looking at that list of players in 1992, I'm comfortable that the talent available in 2014 is not reduced compared with then.

And I have no recollection of a player called Michael Pickering who apparently came 9th in the B&F.

I'd have thought the biggest threat to AFL would be the iphone/ipad/pc etc

kids playing strenuous sport is declining

when you can have the world at the push of a keystroke why bother getting physical and sweaty - yuk

Actually, maybe the talent was better in 1959

Looking at that list of players in 1992, I'm comfortable that the talent available in 2014 is not reduced compared with then.

And I have no recollection of a player called Michael Pickering who apparently came 9th in the B&F.

Came across from Richmond

Jeez, 10th down must have been ordinary

One of the many advantages of having Roos on board is his performance in the media. Great ability to answer a question without really 'answering' the question specifically, never gives anything away, if he does you can bet its for a reason. Very calculated, strategic, and trustworthy to potential recruits or coach appointments which is a great asset to possess. Never puts undue pressure on the these potential appointments and the clubs that they may have to work with at the end of the year. He is part of the list management committee that meet weekly so obviously he would be part of the process of targeting specific players like Cameron and know exactly whats going on.

Roos mentioned the need to fight for space in the media in Melb, and that he never had to in Sydney: if there was going to be news about footy, there was only one team to choose from.

Here he was surprised to find the clubs all jostling for column inches (paraphrasing).

But having heard that, my belief is even more strong that he deliberately draws things out in the media, dripfeeding tidbits that essentially tell us nothing, but give the journos enough to create another article.

Always genial and accommodating - much like Ling, but the polar opposite of Malthouse.

It's a smart move, and he's great for the club in this regard.

There's only one soccer player who's ever made it in footy, and that was former Manchester United superstar Brad Green.

That's just silly - he tried out, and played a bit in a minor league.

Oh come on Robbie, next thing you'll be telling me that Todd Viney didn't beat Boris Becker as a junior

LDC you make some valid points.

I'm writing on my phone so don't have the resources to crunch binders easily but I think both have an effect on thinking the talent.

Previously being an elite sportsman was about only being good at the skills of that sport. Now it is more than ever about physical attributes (height, build) and ability/desire/other to achieve elite physical capacity ie be fit enough to be an elite sportsman.

This criterion actually increases the number of people available play at AFL level. Players of freakish physical abilities and high dedication to fitness are suddenly in the AFL frame because they are fast or can run all day at elite pace or simply because they are 200 cm.

But those players are in the game because of those physical attributes. Not because they are the best footballers, have the best skills or read the play the best. This in itself may result in diluting the pure football talent in favour of athletes. Many footballers never make it in favour of someone who runs well. This was less likely "back in the day" imo because while natural physical attributes came into it, capacity for elite physical performance didn't, because players weren't pushed to that point.

Additionally, while there is a greater population available there are now more than 30 professional football teams of all codes in Australia which can attract players which means imo less potential players per team.

I'd be interested to see participation in all codes (as a break down and as a whole) for 16 year olds both now vs 20 years ago.

are you serious? What better indicator of a sport's popularity do you want? We are talking about the fact that having 3 extra sides should in no way relate to a dilution of talent given we now have 4.5 million people

soccer, rugby, cricket, basketball.. these were all in existence 20 years ago and none of them have gained any ground or taken anything away from the AFL in the time since

you can't just name six basketballers and rest your case FFS

jesus christ people will argue if the world is round in here

I would have thought spherical. But I am pedantic.

But I am pedantic.

No you're not. If you were you would have said something like

"The realization that the figure of the Earth is more accurately described as an ellipsoid dates to the 18th century (Maupertuis)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_the_Earth

well that doesn't make sense

1994 - pop. 18 million, 15 AFL sides, 1.20 mil per side

2014 - pop. 23 million, 18 AFL sides, 1.28 mil per side

The popularity of footy hasn't grown at the same rate

No you're not. If you were you would have said something like

"The realization that the figure of the Earth is more accurately described as an ellipsoid dates to the 18th century (Maupertuis)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_the_Earth

If only the explorers of bygone eras had access to wikipedia, eh?

I don't care how much the population had grown, no doubt there is a dilution of taken with an 18 team competition.

the population has grown, predominately through immigration. Australia is a NET importer of soccer fans. It will continue

The popularity of footy hasn't grown at the same rate

except for the fact that every year it breaks its own attendance, membership and revenue records

Tbh I am really looking forward to a seasons end when we r talking about whether we r going to make the finals or who will we play in the finals etc rather than who is going to be our new coach or we have to trade 24 players to get a better list etc.

After 8 yrs it's becomes very very tiring and monotonous.

Tbh I am really looking forward to a seasons end when we r talking about whether we r going to make the finals or who will we play in the finals etc rather than who is going to be our new coach or we have to trade 24 players to get a better list etc.

After 8 yrs it's becomes very very tiring and monotonous.

You won't have to worry about that any time Ox. It's taken us a long time just to break the habit of deciding who we're going to take with pick one and then spend twice as long in hindsight discussing who we should have taken.

I had that perception too, but since my kids started school I thought I must have overestimated it. All my son's mates play AusKick, and when I turn up to pick him up, it's always a case of playing "dodge the flying Sherrins" (or "mark the flying Sherrins" if I'm in the mood) as I walk through the school grounds. I've not once seen a soccer ball out and being played with. It may be that soccer is making inroads, but its penetration amongst kids is not deep, or threatening to our game in my opinion.

Primary school kids?

Wonder what high schools kids are playing apart from their phones.

I would have thought spherical. But I am pedantic.

an oblate spheroid to be more pedantic

I'd have thought the biggest threat to AFL would be the iphone/ipad/pc etc

kids playing strenuous sport is declining

when you can have the world at the push of a keystroke why bother getting physical and sweaty - yuk

I'll bet you don't let your Ipad replace getting hot and sweaty with the blue rinsers dc.

I had that perception too, but since my kids started school I thought I must have overestimated it. All my son's mates play AusKick, and when I turn up to pick him up, it's always a case of playing "dodge the flying Sherrins" (or "mark the flying Sherrins" if I'm in the mood) as I walk through the school grounds. I've not once seen a soccer ball out and being played with. It may be that soccer is making inroads, but its penetration amongst kids is not deep, or threatening to our game in my opinion.

But remember Gnasher, there are still some patriotic teachers around who confiscate soccer balls and give detentions to kids who play that wimps game.

I blame Jack Watts

I reckon British Bulldog was the most popular game at my school......Til it was banned so we took to the next best which was footy....

I reckon British Bulldog was the most popular game at my school......Til it was banned so we took to the next best which was footy....

Yes that was an efing tough game. I went to a small (catholic) primary school and all the kids played together. So when you were a little tacker "Bulldog" was seriously scary. I broke both my arms at Primary School playing this game. I might add there was no such thing as "yard duty" the teachers just let you go for it. However, when you were in grade 6 it was a great game because you got to smash the little tackers.

I had a compound fracture in grade 4 and staggered to to my (lay) teacher. She in turn took me to "Mother".

I'll never forget "Mother's" comment to my teacher. (bear in mind I had bone sticking out of my arm)

"You didn't carry his bag for him did you?"

I must have missed the recent landslide of popularity that basketball is getting. They getting 290,000 a week to games are they?

Its not the watching of basketball, but the tall young men to choose it over AFl as juniors due to their natural advantage for the game. Its far easier to play basketball than AFL if your a lanky teen. Listne to how many players come from a basketball background.

Lists are also bigger now. 4 or 5 more adds up over 18 clubs. We had 41 in 1992. 45 in 2014.

well that doesn't make sense

1994 - pop. 18 million, 15 AFL sides, 1.20 mil per side

2014 - pop. 23 million, 18 AFL sides, 1.28 mil per side

1994 - 18 million, 15 AFL sides, approx. 615 players, 29,268 per side

2014 - 23 million, 18 AFL sides, approx. 810 players, 28,395 per side

Lists are also bigger now. 4 or 5 more adds up over 18 clubs. We had 41 in 1992. 45 in 2014.

1994 - 18 million, 15 AFL sides, approx. 615 players, 29,268 per side

2014 - 23 million, 18 AFL sides, approx. 810 players, 28,395 per side

Plus the influence of other professional football codes (mainly soccer but also the expansion of rugby and league) and as mentioned above the increased participation of tall blokes in basketball, means that the talent is spread further.