and what or whom do we attribute that day to ?

jack watts???

When you say FACT, I assume you don't mean when we were 22 points up at 3/4 time in the 1987 grand final?

Because I'd say with my vastly inferior footy knowledge to yours, that we looked pretty much like winning a GF had Eishold and a few others not panicked....

Just sayin.....

1987 grand final?

Well said. I'm in the 'sick of the spin' group and I found the article refreshing. There was no spin, no BS and no 'this player will be the great white hope' stuff. He was honest, candid and spot on with his comments. Bailey did some things wrong, no doubt about it, but clearly Neeld and his 'team' left us an absolute rabble that will take us some time to back up from. I don't argue that the players still hold some blame, but I feel as though many of those have moved on over the years like Moloney and Rivers.

His comment that 10 players would have walked out on the club had they been out of contract was the one that hit home the most. It will take time to heal the scars and improve the confidence but, under Roos, I'm quietly confident that we are headed in the right direction.

I liked the article and agree with what Roos says, I just wonder if the players constantly hearing how destroyed and mentally fragile they were/are will have an impact? Hopefully they're not reading this press and/or the message internally is completely different (which I am confident it would be).

Hows about we worry about plan A, before we get plan B right....lol

I didn't see much evidence for the proposition that the players were unfit and the fact that Roosy kept Misso on board suggests this is wrong.

Also not sure about Neeld's "leadership". More a case of inability to stamp his authority on the group.

Really? All the commentary when Mission arrived alluded to a 'poor fitness base.'

and what or whom do we attribute that day to ?

I believe Gaz was out that day with an injury sustained at training. We had an extra week off due to the Collingwood/WCE bye. I had never heard the theory raised by ADC and it has piqued my interest. If I can find footage on YouTube, I might just have a look at that 1990 premiership points game in Perth.

Then again, there might just be the fact that we haven't been good enough.

I liked the article and agree with what Roos says, I just wonder if the players constantly hearing how destroyed and mentally fragile they were/are will have an impact? Hopefully they're not reading this press and/or the message internally is completely different (which I am confident it would be).

i can't recall him saying in the article that they are mentally fragile? Pretty sure he said he was impressed by their resilience....

For example, it became blindingly obvious under Neeld that we were instructed to kick it long down the line to a contest, and in most games we played, the other team not only countered it from very early in the game, but fed off it, moving the ball quickly through the vacant corridor, knowing they could take risks because we could never hurt them on the attack with such a stupidly rigid game plan.

This is about a bad game plan, not not having a plan B. The basic plan was poor.

....Hopefully they're not reading this press and/or the message internally is completely different (which I am confident it would be).

The latter is likely to be true. The possibility that the internal message is somewhat different than the media one doesn't seem to cross the mind of those who over-react to what is put out in the media. While you could argue that such 'hypocrisy' will badly effect the players, it is also possible that the players are intelligent enough to understand the need for a different angle on things internally vs externally.

I believe Gaz was out that day with an injury sustained at training. We had an extra week off due to the Collingwood/WCE bye. I had never heard the theory raised by ADC and it has piqued my interest. If I can find footage on YouTube, I might just have a look at that 1990 premiership points game in Perth.

Then again, there might just be the fact that we haven't been good enough.

I was there. It was the last round of the season. We thrashed them. Maybe they were foxing a liitle waiting for the finals. Scenes at the end of the game were very ugly with player scuffles and some of our players were making innapropriate gestures to the WC fans as they left the field. Rod Grinter gave and copped a lot of attention that day. The WC fans were absolutely crazy and giving heaps to the few Melbourne supporters. Lucky for me I was not wearing Melbourne colours and escaped attention. Because we beat them so easily I believe some of the players got swollen heads.

Beat me to the punch Rhino. I wouldn't have liked our chances in the Granny either (Carlton fresh off a weeks rest and primed to avenge for '86).

Our best chance for a flag was, as Garry Lyon said in his book, 1990. Had we not become complacent against West Coast, I would have liked our chances against either Essendon (who we had beaten twice that year) or Collingwood (who we had a good record in finals against and with whom we had a score to settle when their players told Mike Sheehan in an off the record session that we were soft).

Said it several times before this was the year!

I was there. It was the last round of the season. We thrashed them. Maybe they were foxing a liitle waiting for the finals. Scenes at the end of the game were very ugly with player scuffles and some of our players were making innapropriate gestures to the WC fans as they left the field. Rod Grinter gave and copped a lot of attention that day. The WC fans were absolutely crazy and giving heaps to the few Melbourne supporters. Lucky for me I was not wearing Melbourne colours and escaped attention. Because we beat them so easily I believe some of the players got swollen heads.

It was round 20 we played Hawthorn in the last round

It was round 20 we played Hawthorn in the last round

You are right. It was a long time ago. I maintain that game was our undoing.

I always thought that ND was more like a mate to some of the players than coach and under him we were the ultimate in inconsistency, we had some pretty good players but in my view we never looked capable of winning a flag under him.

The fact is we haven't looked like winning a flag for 50 years.

We were always May/June/July premiers. Couldn't maintain consistency throughout the year and lost gimme matches (like 2006 vs Carlton x2, 2004 vs Carlton etc) that cost us dearly.

Getting back to the article, the thing that I liked the most was the mention of Clark (when he does return) being pencilled in for ruck duties. With Hogan, Dawes and Howe hopefully holding up the forward line, a fit Clark in the middle would be a huge win for us as he is a 4th midfielder once the ball hits the deck and around the ground, something our other rucks just can't give us.

Said it several times before this was the year!

1994 was close as well. We were on fire in finals against Carlton and Footscray but ran into a brick wall, also against WCE over there on a day when we were jumped at the start and couldn't get back into the game in windy conditions. The next year the Ox did his knee, we lost Jako, had a series of disastrous injuries (Lyon, Tingay, Prymke), Martin Pike went ape and we lost it for a few years.

1994 was close as well. We were on fire in finals against Carlton and Footscray but ran into a brick wall, also against WCE over there on a day when we were jumped at the start and couldn't get back into the game in windy conditions. The next year the Ox did his knee, we lost Jako, had a series of disastrous injuries (Lyon, Tingay, Prymke), Martin Pike went ape and we lost it for a few years.

Without being too conspiratorial, there was something a little fishy about the physiques of some of those West Coast blokes from the early '90's...

i can't recall him saying in the article that they are mentally fragile? Pretty sure he said he was impressed by their resilience....

“With the player group, what struck me again was they were almost crying out for help. Sometimes fans think, not literally, but they think players don't care, but they were almost like the lost boy at the market [asking] how do I find mum? So they were a pretty lost group and searching and wondering where they were heading as a footy club and a group of people. So I was certainly pretty shocked by that.”

With regards to the 1990 R20 game against WCE I have that on video and at the end of the game (after we blew them away by 6 goals in the last quarter) Grinter seemed to be getting into some heated words with a radio interviewer on the ground and as the players walked off singing It's A Grand Old Flag Grinter, Bennet & possibly Wilson were giving the finger to the crowd who were giving them plenty.

On the Plan B thing.

I have often lamented (at least in RL, maybe not on DL) the fact that we don't have a Plan B. But when saying this, I do not expect a change in game lan, or game style.

• I expect that the key back who is getting slaughtered could be swapped for an alternative player, OR another defender could be instructed to make an effort to drop in front of them.

• I expect that when an opposition midfielder has run around unmarked for 2 quarters getting 25 touches to half time, we could try moving a tagger onto him, or even try to get another midfielder to man him at stoppages, instead of letting him roam free.

• I expect that when an opposition back flanker is getting leather poisoning running the ball out of defence while his opponent, and our forward hasn't touched the ball but is chasing him around we might shift that forward to full forward to try and drag him away from the play.

• I expect that when we are constantly bombing into an unmanned forward line and turning it over that we make a conscious decision to hold it up for 5 seconds on the wing to allow players to get back.

None of these are significant changes in game plans. But is frustrating when we see the same things happen over and over and over within the same game, without any positional or tactical moves to try and neutralise areas the opposition are winning.

I think we'll be starting, going into the game with a strong plan 'B'... stop the 'b'aaarstards first then 'a'ttack. counterattack. you only need a massive change of gameplan when you are fullon offence & it doesn't work.

be responsible for your opponent & any who are loose in your vicinity, shut down their attacks & score off them.

True and you can add that when the full back is kicking out after a behind you should expect him to be kicking to the same spot every time and if it's being constantly intercepted then try something different.

Now there is a good idea. I was rather hoping we would continue with that small chip to the back pocket and then back to the full back in the goal square and then a turnover and goal to the opposition.

It was so enjoyable to see it over and over again.

Agree Ed. Our kickout strategies have either been pathetic or incapable of being executed with the talent we had. I found it like you, one of the most frustrating parts of our game.

I liked the article and agree with what Roos says, I just wonder if the players constantly hearing how destroyed and mentally fragile they were/are will have an impact? Hopefully they're not reading this press and/or the message internally is completely different (which I am confident it would be).

If there is anyone here who has some knowledge of sports psychology I'd be really interested to know how you go about rebuilding belief. I'd have thought much of it would have to come from performance and it's why I disagree with Whispering_Jack about our preseason opponents. It's likely that even if we play good footy with a good team we'll lose 3 games and I can't see that helps.

I think there would have been a great deal of work done on this by the new FD. It would be interesting to know what that involves.

Surely, if we play good footy and still lose against the best, we've gained more than whipping the likes of GWS (notwithstanding that they beat us last time we met)?

When I was learning to play chess I was told that if I played against weaker opponents, I would never learn.

GWS are going to the surprise packet this year.

When I was learning to play chess I was told that if I played against weaker opponents, I would never learn.

I don't think there are any weaker opponents. I'd have preferred to play the likes of Brisbane, Footscray and Saints who are more our level.

And I think what we need to do is to learn to win more than anything else and start to replace the scars of thrashing after thrashing.

But that is a amateur view and it's why I've said I'd like the view of someone with some experience in the area.

It is all about what a player can do. Focus on positives. As the player progresses that positive gets larger.

And how in a positive way can many of the negatives be rectified.

A lot of this Roos has highlighted by the talks he has had with players over the last few months.

I hope some tears were shed. Get it all out.

Amazing how much better one can feel after a cry. Seriously!!

Positive repitition

I don't know about Plan a and plan b, but what the dees have had a huge weakness under ND, Bailey and Neeld was stopping an opposition's momentum when they got a run on. How often in the last decade have we been in an ok position only for the opposition to suddenly take control of the match and kick a swag of un-answered goals?

As some have noted perhaps a tweak of the game plan in those circumstances is what is required, rather than another style altogether (something Roos was adamant in the Age article would not occur ie they will use the same game plan no matter who they are playing). The obvious tweak is to keep possession through short kicks, hold on to the ball for longer, create stoppages and control the tempo rather than counter attack with a slingshot out of defence (which will the normal modus operandi). This is how the Hawks, Freo, Swans and to a lsser etent Cats stop another teams momentum.