Training - Monday 27th January, 2014 (Australia Day Holiday)

[Jarka 767]

Hi everyone,

Thanks PD, welcome and post more!

[Machsy 2,858]

Strauss is ok in space, His brain seizes up when the space closes down so he needs to address that.

Good to hear that he is training well as he has some nice attributes.

Rubbish.

That's another one of those "I remember Strauss back in 2010..." judgments, and they are well off.

[old dee 23,872]

Rubbish.

That's another one of those "I remember Strauss back in 2010..." judgments, and they are well off.

When have they been proved "well off"

Saw little of an AFL player in 2013.

I pray on with not a lot of hope.

[Akum 2,660]

Strauss is ok in space, His brain seizes up when the space closes down so he needs to address that.

Good to hear that he is training well as he has some nice attributes.

I'd prefer to modify that slightly and say that Strauss needs to learn how to find space, and his teammates around him need to learn how to put him into space with the ball.

In other words, we need to work out how to play Strauss like Sydney play Malceski, or Hawks play Suckling.

I think he's acquitted himself reasonably well as a lock-down small defender, but that's not what we drafted him for.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Rubbish.

That's another one of those "I remember Strauss back in 2010..." judgments, and they are well off.

No, you're talking rubbish. Strauss is very error prone under pressure.

As Jabberwocky says, he has lots of admirable tools and let's hope he can develop undoubted talents.

[mdemonski2 403]

Glad someone has mentioned Kent. His pace and kicking today were very good and added a bit to the group I thought. He's got the body and aggression I reckon Roos will like and he finished last season well which was a great credit to a first year player.

I also thought that Tyson was very good. Natural ball winner and uses it very well.

Of course the one that caught my eye was Jordie McKenzie. Hands were clean and never missed a target.

Having said that it all looks good now and it's not until we start playing that we'll know. Players like Strauss my just be like Bennell who looked a million dollars on the track but under the genuine pressure of AFL just wasn't good enough. The most interesting thing about the season will be to see who breaks out of the pack and consolidates a place and who were just preseason teasers. It never seems to be who you think and when the team settles there are always 4 or 5 who surprise.

Kent looked really good at training Monday. Over his pre-season niggles. He was kicking really nicely, I didn't know his foot skills were actually that good and hope he can dispose of the ball that efficiently come the real stuff.

Watts kicking was sublime by the way. He hit blokes up perfectly even when he looked to be slightly over ambitious. Again hope this continues when the season starts but signs much better on the skill levels of the team overall. When I have watched in previous season, skills did not seem as sharp and nor were they performed under simulated match conditions (which seems to be happening more often this year).

[Hannibal 5,814]

We all look forward to seeing Forest Watts this season.

I want to see him start to stand up in tackles. He won't do it like Selwood, or Ablett, who are completely unfazed by tackles. They stand up, are unhurried and 9 times out of 10 hit their target with a slick handball. Jack closes his eyes, knees go to jelly, falls forward and then hits the deck like a spaced out octopus.

Small steps...

[robbiefrom13 892]

We all look forward to seeing Forest Watts this season.

I want to see him start to stand up in tackles. He won't do it like Selwood, or Ablett, who are completely unfazed by tackles. They stand up, are unhurried and 9 times out of 10 hit their target with a slick handball. Jack closes his eyes, knees go to jelly, falls forward and then hits the deck like a spaced out octopus.

Small steps...

showing off again, H? For a moment there, I thought you were trying to describe something, but no - just trying to be clever. It's a yawn, H.

[Whispering_Jack 30,664]

We all look forward to seeing Forest Watts this season.

I want to see him start to stand up in tackles. He won't do it like Selwood, or Ablett, who are completely unfazed by tackles. They stand up, are unhurried and 9 times out of 10 hit their target with a slick handball. Jack closes his eyes, knees go to jelly, falls forward and then hits the deck like a spaced out octopus.

Small steps...

Understand the point you're trying to make and we all want to see a harder and stronger Watts but IIRC Gary Ablett was definitely fazed when tackled by Garland and McKenzie in the second meeting with the Suns last year up at Carrara. Of course, the problem was that the tackles that night weren't exactly legitimate or even in the course of the play but he definitely didn't like it.

The other thing is that what you've described is what you would expect from a purely inside player but I don't think this is the role Roos has in mind for our Jack. Nevertheless, Roos will expect him to stand up and be counted when the time comes and he does tend to get that sort of commitment from his players so don't give up hope yet.

[Arrow 1,257]

Rubbish.

That's another one of those "I remember Strauss back in 2010..." judgments, and they are well off.

No, you're talking rubbish. Strauss is very error prone under pressure.

As Jabberwocky says, he has lots of admirable tools and let's hope he can develop undoubted talents.

Interesting. Most of all, I like when comments are backed up by stats.

Mach, couldn't agree with you more. His season in 2010 was terrible. Sadly he just wasn't up to it. Isn't the only Melbourne player to come along in the last 10 years and have that though.

Hannibal, the under pressure nature you talk about is a terrible fabrication after a team that's won 5 games in 50 odd games. Here his statistics on error prone possessions.

In 2011, he averaged 12.9 possessions, with a disposal efficiency of 82.8% and 1.4 clangers a game. That efficiency put him second on Melbourne's list.

In 2012, he had 77 touches at 11 per game, with again an 83.1 disposal efficiency and 1.6 clangers a game. His disposal efficiency left him at the top of Melbourne's list. A full 3% higher than any other player.

And finally, in 2013, he had 58 possessions at 86.2% efficiency, the second best in the team, with 6 clangers. An average of one clanger per game. To put it in perspective, there wasn't a single Melbourne player who averaged one clanger or less other than James in 2013. Players like Fitzpatrick, Kent, Blease, Tapscott, Sellar, Dawes and Jetta all had less of the football and more clangers. Jimmy Toumpas, an excellent user of the football had 2 extra possessions a game, but averaged an extra clanger per game.

If you can find anything in the above information that leads you to the conclusion that under pressure he chokes up, I'd enjoy hearing it. He played in the worst backline in history last year and turned the ball over once a game. 3 years in a row been in the top 2 for disposal efficiency. Have I lifted the wool up yet?

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,939]

There is no doubt Strauss is an elite user of the footy. Seen him in enough senior games to back this is up.

Does he have any other attributes or point of difference to make him a bona-fide league player. Genuine question.

I really hope Strauss makes it. We invested a top 20 pick in him.

[Hannibal 5,814]

SNIP

No need to be affronted, I just don't agree. My opinion comes from watching games. I like Strauss and his potential, but he is very prone to dumb errors under pressure. That said, he's a young player who can improve. I have hope he will.

He didn't get it that often to stuff up that often. Most of his possessions will be from a 20 metre chip kick into the back pocket, or a play on from full back.

So this is how we stand... I hope he improves under pressure and I'll let you rejoice at his coolness under pressure. Great, we're all happy.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I'd prefer to modify that slightly and say that Strauss needs to learn how to find space, and his teammates around him need to learn how to put him into space with the ball.

In other words, we need to work out how to play Strauss like Sydney play Malceski, or Hawks play Suckling.

I think he's acquitted himself reasonably well as a lock-down small defender, but that's not what we drafted him for.

I don't agree. He may do his best work out in the open but he will need to learn to deal with the tight spaces as well to add some value.

Utilise his strengths by all means but players need to be able to operate under pressure or they will be found out in big games and finals.

Edited January 28, 2014 by jabberwocky

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

Strauss issues in the limited chances he has had to string games together so far in his career has not been about disposal errors but errors in judgment in his positioning against his man and poor body on body play. The thing I have liked about the three times I have seen Strauss over the pre-season is he seems to be pushing himself more than I have seen before as well as doing extra work i.e.: he stayed back yesterday for 15 minutes working on flattening out his handballs with Rawlings.

There is definitely spot for a running defender and if he gets a clear run with injury I think he will make the most of it.

[Akum 2,660]

I don't agree. He may do his best work out in the open but he will need to learn to deal with the tight spaces as well to add some value.

Utilise his strengths by all means but players need to be able to operate under pressure or they will be found out in big games and finals.

I know what you mean, but IMO he's become quite good in tight spaces. He often restricts his opponent to a handful of possessions, even if we get thrashed, although playing negatively he doesn't get a lot of it himself. I can't recall anybody who's really got away from him.

My point is that we drafted him to be a running rebounding defender with very good ball use. But our substandard midfield means the defence is under so much pressure the whole time, so we've never had a chance to see how he goes in that role.

We'll never get full value out of Strauss until he can get it in the open as much as Malceski et al. That's partly up to him and partly up to his teammates.

The part that's up to him is being able to add his rebounding skills to his defensive game, knowing when, how and where to run off his man; his teammates need to look for him, find him and cover for him when he does. He's got both sides of the game, he's got all the tools, he just needs to put them together. On the other hand, it's entirely possible it's just beyond him.

Why can't the coach who developed Malceski do just as well with Strauss? We'll have a very valuable player on our hands if he can.

[Deeoldfart 8,061]

Strauss issues in the limited chances he has had to string games together so far in his career has not been about disposal errors but errors in judgment in his positioning against his man and poor body on body play. The thing I have liked about the three times I have seen Strauss over the pre-season is he seems to be pushing himself more than I have seen before as well as doing extra work i.e.: he stayed back yesterday for 15 minutes working on flattening out his handballs with Rawlings.

There is definitely spot for a running defender and if he gets a clear run with injury I think he will make the most of it.

Exactly!!

[Its Time for Another 4,287]

Interesting, just turned on replay of last years Qualifying Final between Sydney and Hawks. Pre Game interview with John Longmire with him saying to win they have to do what they try to do every week which is play hard contested two way football. Sound familiar? Sound like training drills that have been going on all pre season?

[McQueen 17,867]

Interesting. Most of all, I like when comments are backed up by stats.

Mach, couldn't agree with you more. His season in 2010 was terrible. Sadly he just wasn't up to it. Isn't the only Melbourne player to come along in the last 10 years and have that though.

Hannibal, the under pressure nature you talk about is a terrible fabrication after a team that's won 5 games in 50 odd games. Here his statistics on error prone possessions.

In 2011, he averaged 12.9 possessions, with a disposal efficiency of 82.8% and 1.4 clangers a game. That efficiency put him second on Melbourne's list.

In 2012, he had 77 touches at 11 per game, with again an 83.1 disposal efficiency and 1.6 clangers a game. His disposal efficiency left him at the top of Melbourne's list. A full 3% higher than any other player.

And finally, in 2013, he had 58 possessions at 86.2% efficiency, the second best in the team, with 6 clangers. An average of one clanger per game. To put it in perspective, there wasn't a single Melbourne player who averaged one clanger or less other than James in 2013. Players like Fitzpatrick, Kent, Blease, Tapscott, Sellar, Dawes and Jetta all had less of the football and more clangers. Jimmy Toumpas, an excellent user of the football had 2 extra possessions a game, but averaged an extra clanger per game.

If you can find anything in the above information that leads you to the conclusion that under pressure he chokes up, I'd enjoy hearing it. He played in the worst backline in history last year and turned the ball over once a game. 3 years in a row been in the top 2 for disposal efficiency. Have I lifted the wool up yet?

Can you please provide the evidence to these stats? How many were from kicks? How many from handballs?

Garland, Frawley, Grimes and Rivers had a better 'kicking to hit target' ratio than Strauss in 2012.

[dpositive 1,684]

We all look forward to seeing Forest Watts this season.

I want to see him start to stand up in tackles. He won't do it like Selwood, or Ablett, who are completely unfazed by tackles. They stand up, are unhurried and 9 times out of 10 hit their target with a slick handball. Jack closes his eyes, knees go to jelly, falls forward and then hits the deck like a spaced out octopus.

Small steps...

Thats an interesting comment as I cant recall him being tackled in play all that much it was only when he received a ball had no target to give it to stopped, bounced, looked around, feigned a hand pass, put it near his boot, gets tackled . It was all too late and not always caused by his poor disposal it was that he was unable to dispose and then got tackled. This accords with a lot of criticism of him that he doesnt crash and bash through packs either. always saw him on his own making position usually well away from a tackler.

Maybe we should pair him up with MacDonald and see if he is still elusive or if Macca can make him realise he does needs to be able to withstand the tackle while disposing.

[Blistering 541]

Interesting, just turned on replay of last years Qualifying Final between Sydney and Hawks. Pre Game interview with John Longmire with him saying to win they have to do what they try to do every week which is play hard contested two way football. Sound familiar? Sound like training drills that have been going on all pre season?

There are a number of elements at play when we ask players to produce contested two way football. There's the physical side which requires mature bodies of which we didn't have enough last year. Then there's the mental side including belief in your capacity to go harder and longer. We didn't have that either and, as a consequence, we couldn't produce that sort of game.

Roos' recruiting has IMO been structured to overcome this and I expect the group will have more belief in his game plan than that of his predecessor.

[Cards13 9,117]

There are a number of elements at play when we ask players to produce contested two way football. There's the physical side which requires mature bodies of which we didn't have enough last year. Then there's the mental side including belief in your capacity to go harder and longer. We didn't have that either and, as a consequence, we couldn't produce that sort of game.

Roos' recruiting has IMO been structured to overcome this and I expect the group will have more belief in his game plan than that of his predecessor.

I still think we need to be careful to over state what has transpired to date and any vast improvements, espcially in playing finals this year. I firmly believe this is step 1, step 2 is playing games this year and getting confidence up in mid year group of players and experience into the young players so they can develop further next year, step 3 is finding assistant/next coach and hopefully Roos staying on for year 3, step 4 is next trade/free agent period and being able to lure more quality experience whilst not letting any one of value go and step 5 is flag... easy really...

[rpfc 28,779]

Interesting. Most of all, I like when comments are backed up by stats.

Mach, couldn't agree with you more. His season in 2010 was terrible. Sadly he just wasn't up to it. Isn't the only Melbourne player to come along in the last 10 years and have that though.

Hannibal, the under pressure nature you talk about is a terrible fabrication after a team that's won 5 games in 50 odd games. Here his statistics on error prone possessions.

In 2011, he averaged 12.9 possessions, with a disposal efficiency of 82.8% and 1.4 clangers a game. That efficiency put him second on Melbourne's list.

In 2012, he had 77 touches at 11 per game, with again an 83.1 disposal efficiency and 1.6 clangers a game. His disposal efficiency left him at the top of Melbourne's list. A full 3% higher than any other player.

And finally, in 2013, he had 58 possessions at 86.2% efficiency, the second best in the team, with 6 clangers. An average of one clanger per game. To put it in perspective, there wasn't a single Melbourne player who averaged one clanger or less other than James in 2013. Players like Fitzpatrick, Kent, Blease, Tapscott, Sellar, Dawes and Jetta all had less of the football and more clangers. Jimmy Toumpas, an excellent user of the football had 2 extra possessions a game, but averaged an extra clanger per game.

I don't think these stats are that conclusive about anyone's ability to perform under pressure.

Disposal efficiency and clangers don't tell a definitive story of courage under fire.

For instance, a player may not even get the footy in a contested situation after being in a position to get the footy. There will be no negative statistic recorded for this negative instance.

And DE and clangers have definitions that bring negatives to a positive - for example, a clearance out of the middle to Clark when he is outmarked is a clanger and an inefficient disposal. It would statistically be a net negative but it really shouldn't be - not to the player who managed the clearance and the long kick forward.

[Machsy 2,858]

It may not be an absolute indicator, but I imagine that someone with the deficiencies under pressure as outlined by other posters, in the perpetually-under-siege MFC backline, would have a very difficult time accruing those statistics.

In fact, it would not happen.

But it is possible for Strauss, because the "allegations" are obsolete, and have been for some time.

[rpfc 28,779]

It may not be an absolute indicator, but I imagine that someone with the deficiencies under pressure as outlined by other posters, in the perpetually-under-siege MFC backline, would have a very difficult time accruing those statistics.

In fact, it would not happen.

But it is possible for Strauss, because the "allegations" are obsolete, and have been for some time.

Well, another issue is number of games played and touches acrrued. You will turn it over less if you get it less. I just wouldn't read much into these stats full stop.

As I have said before - I would rather somone get 6 clangers if they have the workrate to get 20 touches, rather than having a perfect 10 touch game that might be considered timid at best and ineffectual at worst.

[Machsy 2,858]

Fair point.

But I don't believe someone with the propensity to panic under pressure would be able to accrue those statistics regardless.

It's not to say its an absolute indicator that he is the best in that field, but it is an indicator that he is hardly the worst, or as bad as some are saying.

I think both points stand irrespective of each other.