Punters Club fiasco

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Sure did. Waded through four pages of irrelevant overseas rubbish using a foreign Google service, and found a couple of stories buried.

Which I thought maybe some nice person might help me avoid, given a 30 comment thread where everyone knew what was going on despite no context or links.

Not a big deal, but jeepers you can be a git.

You are right it isn't a big deal and you're clearly not adept at search engines.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yeah I've acknowledged that later that clearly this was not your standard racing syndicate. And of course in pure investment racing syndication is a risky investment but the whole point of syndication is that you only put in small affordable amounts according to what you can afford. Hence for a reasonably well off business man if McLardy owns a couple of shares in syndications he can hardly be labelled a horrid gambler. Anyone, especially if they do so knowingly, who put cash in to the punting aspects of the business were very foolish.

Someone attempting to seek their own justice on the manager tells me not only was it a dodgy deal but probably a dodgy deal featuring dodgy people.

Affordable = prepared to lose all without being sent broke. For any but the sharp players, syndicates are a financial sink hole.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

So, Melbourne has David Schwarz, Daniel Ward and Travis Johnstone (and quite possibly other players) struggling with gambling issues. Meanwhile, club heavyweights and former club heavyweights are tumbling over their wallets to get into their own gambling troubles.

I blame Mark Neeld.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Race syndication is usually quite risky for those that put the money in. For every successful horse that breaks even there are a slew of horses that gobble up money and never make it. And to have bought Black Caviars relative for $5m suggests this is far from the usual syndication.

You are splitting hairs between racing and betting syndicates as both are dabbling with significant levels of risk.

If the press is right and there is $190million, then BC3 was more than a mere racing syndicate.

$5m would've been a cheap investment had Jimmy not been bitten by a white-tail and having a severe reaction to the treatment (would be equivilent to you or I getting struck by lightening in terms of how unlucky it is). You only have to look at its breeding to see that the chances of getting an above-average performer were better than your average lot. If he managed to pick up a Group race, they'd send it stud, probably put a $50k service fee on it (for a start - All Too Hard in his first season is asking $66k). Fairly healthy return over the next decade, assuming Darley or Vinery hadn't bought him for 4-times their purchase price.

Besides, I'm not sure why you're highlight racing syndicates as being the quite risky ones. All horse ownership is risky, doesn't matter if you are part of a syndicate, a sole owner or Sheikh Mohammed.

Betting syndicates can be as dodgy as buggery, and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as horse/racing syndication. The "splitting hairs" call proves your ignorance on a good part of this topic.

[Sir Why You Little 37,143]

Was Jimmy introduced to a spider or was it an "accident".

The horse hasn't been paid for.....

[The Chazz 4,077]

Was Jimmy introduced to a spider or was it an "accident".

The horse hasn't been paid for.....

So do you think an "associate" picked up a white tail, opened it's mouth, put it's fangs on Jimmy's ass and pushed down?

Interesting theory.

[Sir Why You Little 37,143]

So do you think an "associate" picked up a white tail, opened it's mouth, put it's fangs on Jimmy's ass and pushed down?

Interesting theory.

No i don't. I am sure the spider was capable of doing that itself. The spider could have been placed somewhere near the horse.

A $5mill horse that wasn't being paid for....

It is possible.

[The Chazz 4,077]

No i don't. I am sure the spider was capable of doing that itself. The spider could have been placed somewhere near the horse.

A $5mill horse that wasn't being paid for....

It is possible.

My place is full of bloody redbacks at the moment WYL, and I only owe the bank money (mortgage), and haven't missed one repayment. The Bendigo Bank are tough bastards.

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

Sort of related.

GLD are selling shares in a syndication. "Gai Living the Dream"

$3,500 per share or $96 p/m over 4 years.

Have a look at the PDS where the money goes.

It is a staggering rip off.

[Sir Why You Little 37,143]

My place is full of bloody redbacks at the moment WYL, and I only owe the bank money (mortgage), and haven't missed one repayment. The Bendigo Bank are tough bastards.

Life is tough.

Jimmy will not race again so if it was a set up it was a harsh call.

Maybe a total coincident but with what has been unearthed in the last week i am not sure.

Some heavy people want revenge.

Edited December 10, 2013 by why you little

[The Chazz 4,077]

Life is tough.

Jimmy will not race again so if it was a set up it was a harsh call.

Maybe a total coincident but with what has been unearthed in the last week i am not sure.

Some heavy people want revenge.

Jimmy is highly unlikely to reproduce such was the reaction and effects of the treatment.

A very drastic action for someone to get "payback".

[Sir Why You Little 37,143]

Jimmy is highly unlikely to reproduce such was the reaction and effects of the treatment.

A very drastic action for someone to get "payback".

Sure is. Angry and irrational.

Nobody was being paid over a long period of time.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Sort of related.

GLD are selling shares in a syndication. "Gai Living the Dream"

$3,500 per share or $96 p/m over 4 years.

Have a look at the PDS where the money goes.

It is a staggering rip off.

Chippy, interested to know you think that way?

Sure, things like marketing costs, travel & entertainment expenses, etc are a bit of a joke, but these types of syndicates aren't set up for people to make money. Of course the managers/directors will, but it's their business and they are entitled to make an income from it.

$3,500 to say that you've raced 2 or 3 $1m horses with Gai Waterhouse, for some people that's all it is about, and I hope they get enjoyment out of it.

For every critic, there is someone that can see this as a cheap way to experience racehorse ownership. The prospectus clearly states the financials, and I'm sure some people will accept that and still purchase.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Sure is. Angry and irrational.

Nobody was being paid over a long period of time.

I can see where you are coming from WYL, but I don't think you're right. We'll never know though!

[Sir Why You Little 37,143]

I can see where you are coming from WYL, but I don't think you're right. We'll never know though!

who knows?.

But it aint often a white tail bites a $5 million horse that was never going to be paid for either!!

Edited December 10, 2013 by why you little

[The Chazz 4,077]

who knows?.

But it aint often a white tail bites a $5 million horse that was never going to be paid for either!!

Yeah, but that's speculation. If it was that bad, I'm sure Vinery or Darley would've happily taken him off their hands for cost price. Or even simpler - the original breeder/owner.

Nathank Tinkler has proved that you do what you need to when you need money. Him selling All Too Hard for $20m has cost him a hell of a lot of money, but he needed it. Jimmy was BC3's biggest asset, and for anyone that is owed money, a 100% fit Jimmy was the best chance they had of getting it back.

[Sir Why You Little 37,143]

Unless it was an insurance claim job.

This horse was never going to be paid for. That is the point.

Every cent of this scheme will have gone off shore with no paper trail.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Unless it was an insurance claim job.

This horse was never going to be paid for. That is the point.

Every cent of this scheme will have gone off shore with no paper trail.

It would've been paid for, just that it would've eventually been wearing different colours.

[jnrmac 20,189]

Anyone that knows a small amount about betting knows you can't get set on most races for a few grand. The dollars that are being bandied about in this saga make it so implausible that I have little regard for people that lost money it.

It is no different to Bernie Madoff. Greed and trusting 'mates' who vouch for the scheme.

[Hannibal 5,814]

So do you think an "associate" picked up a white tail, opened it's mouth, put it's fangs on Jimmy's ass and pushed down?

Interesting theory.

It was mentioned by Andrew Rule on the radio that an infected needle can cause the same types of symptoms as a spider bite. He also said that it's virtually impossible to determine whether it was a spider bite, or an infected needle.

It may or may not have been a spider bite, but either way I don't reckon I'd be telling connections it was anything other than a spider bite.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Ben-Hur

[Sir Why You Little 37,143]

It would've been paid for, just that it would've eventually been wearing different colours.

billy this wasn't a horse racing syndication at all.

The words "horse" "racing" or "breeding" were used merely to draw people in.

It was merely a scheme for people to pour money into a black hole.

There are no reciepts!!

There was a similiar scheme back in 2000 based around the WA Building industry. I know because i was mildly burnt. These schemes pull money until the last moment. Then vanish.

No paper no recourse to the law.

[Redleg 41,484]

$5m would've been a cheap investment had Jimmy not been bitten by a white-tail and having a severe reaction to the treatment (would be equivilent to you or I getting struck by lightening in terms of how unlucky it is). You only have to look at its breeding to see that the chances of getting an above-average performer were better than your average lot. If he managed to pick up a Group race, they'd send it stud, probably put a $50k service fee on it (for a start - All Too Hard in his first season is asking $66k). Fairly healthy return over the next decade, assuming Darley or Vinery hadn't bought him for 4-times their purchase price.

Besides, I'm not sure why you're highlight racing syndicates as being the quite risky ones. All horse ownership is risky, doesn't matter if you are part of a syndicate, a sole owner or Sheikh Mohammed.

Betting syndicates can be as dodgy as buggery, and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as horse/racing syndication. The "splitting hairs" call proves your ignorance on a good part of this topic.

Incorrect.

The horse was vetted at the sales and all vets bar the BC3 one rated the horse high risk and unlikely to race. That was my mail as well, then and now. I was told he would not race because of his knees not the spider bite. That came along later.

As for him going to stud, the fee you suggest for an unraced close relative to a champion is way off the mark.

I have a share in Black Caviar's full brother, not half brother, who actually raced and won twice, looked good but then was retired because of a throat problem. He stood at $6.6k last year his first year.

Unfortunately while a horse can make it on pedigree, without winning, they start at reduced fees and have to breed winners to succeed. It is bloody hard and few do it because the quality of mares they serve is inferior.

[beelzebub 23,383]

you dont win you're dogmeat

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,909]

you dont win you're dogmeat

Are you directly quoting Mark Neeld?

[The Chazz 4,077]

Incorrect.

The horse was vetted at the sales and all vets bar the BC3 one rated the horse high risk and unlikely to race. That was my mail as well, then and now. I was told he would not race because of his knees not the spider bite. That came along later.

As for him going to stud, the fee you suggest for an unraced close relative to a champion is way off the mark.

I have a share in Black Caviar's full brother, not half brother, who actually raced and won twice, looked good but then was retired because of a throat problem. He stood at $6.6k last year his first year.

Unfortunately while a horse can make it on pedigree, without winning, they start at reduced fees and have to breed winners to succeed. It is bloody hard and few do it because the quality of mares they serve is inferior.

Redleg, I do believe I stated that if he won a Group race that his stud fee would be at that value, so not incorrect at all.

It's also the first I've heard of any vet concerns, so I appreciate you informing me of that. It doesn't change my mind a great deal but does give me something to consider. That said, given it was an auction, and other bidders were involved until BC3's winning bid, I question why some of the other bidders weren't concerned by this apparent knee issue.

It's something that we will never know the real truth - I don't claim to know everything about it, none of us can. My initial argument was in regards to dodgy punters clubs as opposed to dodgy syndicators (as per RR's post).

Off topic - must've experienced the highs and lows with Moshe. Had above average ability, shame we didn't get to see the best for him.