Training - Wednesday 27th November, 2013

[Satyriconhome 10,675]

Like Aish was pegged top 3 all year, but went at 7 ?

Despite your assertions we don't know where everyone rated Toumpas.

Whatever, as long as you are always right, the top 10 this year as in every year was know from way out.....

[H_T 3,043]

Like Aish was pegged top 3 all year, but went at 7 ?

Despite your assertions we don't know where everyone rated Toumpas.

And Daniel Rich....

[alias275 259]

Has chippa gained more size again or is it just me? He's definitely bigger than Tappy.

[TGR 1,367]

Like Aish was pegged top 3 all year, but went at 7 ?

Despite your assertions we don't know where everyone rated Toumpas.

My concept (I didn't invent it, but brought it up in ology a few years ago) of retrospective drafting answers all of this stuff eventually. Wines would go earlier than Toomp after round 1 2013.....right through to now. Unless of course Toomp is training the house down and has stopped running like Donald Duck.

I will give Toomp this though: his delivery is A-grade.

pTGR

[old dee 23,682]

Come on OD, always look on the bright side of life.

Bet you broke in to song in your mind then.

Robbie, McKenzie, Bail, Nicholson and Spencer are poor kicks under any circumstance.

they will continue that trait in 2014.

[DeeVoted 583]

Thanks for the training reports and photos to those that posted.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

We need Toumpas to hurt on the outside with his beautifully weighted passes and to also win contested footy. It's an area he needs to improve. He knows it and the coaches know it.

Agree, it's not exactly big news that a 2nd year mid needs to work on a part of his game or that a highly ranked draftee is drafted with known deficiencies.

The defensiveness some people display of high draft picks is unreal.

I think the kid is made of the right stuff and I back him to become a very good footballer.

Edited November 28, 2013 by jabberwocky

[jnrmac 20,040]

Breaking the lines might be their primary role or strength but they both get just under 30% contested possession.

As others have said you need to have a strong game in and out in the modern game.

Everyone has a role. Not everyone wins a lot of contested ball. Nor do you want them to. We need players who can deliver accurately to our fwds. Haven't had that in a long time.

[What 18,810]

never thought id say this, but Colin Garland has put on a lot of muscle

hes actually looking big

[Bay Riffin 1,466]

There is a photo of the forward line group, and Ro Bail is in it. Please don't tell me they are going to try him as the small forward?

Probably a sign for roos that our defensive pressure is so bad in the forward line. its the one string to Bails Bow

[rjay 24,808]

We need Toumpas to hurt on the outside with his beautifully weighted passes and to also win contested footy. It's an area he needs to improve. He knows it and the coaches know it.

Agree…and he seems like the type of kid that will work hard to get it done.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Breaking the lines might be their primary role or strength but they both get just under 30% contested possession.

As others have said you need to have a strong game in and out in the modern game.

I don't understand your rebuttal. When you've got a plathora of ball winning, smart and hardened mids like Hawthorn and Sydney, those line breakers are worth their weight in gold and they'll never have to lift that percentage, because they're not required too. They're not in the side for that reason.

It's the same with Toumpas, the only difference being, we haven't had a midfield for him to play his natural role.

You're missing the point. Toumpas contested ball winning percentages were too low at junior level. Recruiters like 30% to be a minimum benchmark and Toumpas was the lowest of all highly ranked mids at 22. Cale Morton was another from his year that was very low in contested ball winning ability. This year it was Aish and interestingly he slipped out of the top 3 where he'd comfortably sat all year. And I'd say he fell due to his poor contested ball winning percentage.

We need Toumpas to hurt on the outside with his beautifully weighted passes and to also win contested footy. It's an area he needs to improve. He knows it and the coaches know it.

Well I don't know what the point is. He needs to improve his contested ball winning. Yes, everyone does. I am in agreeance to a certain extent. I disagree with the amount of importance people are putting on it, as he'll never be in the thickof it like Jones, Michie, Tyson, Cross and Viney.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I don't understand your rebuttal. When you've got a plathora of ball winning, smart and hardened mids like Hawthorn and Sydney, those line breakers are worth their weight in gold and they'll never have to lift that percentage, because they're not required too. They're not in the side for that reason.

It's the same with Toumpas, the only difference being, we haven't had a midfield for him to play his natural role.

Well I don't know what the point is. He needs to improve his contested ball winning. Yes, everyone does. I am in agreeance to a certain extent. I disagree with the amount of importance people are putting on it, as he'll never be in the thickof it like Jones, Michie, Tyson, Cross and Viney.

It wasn't a rebuttal, it is just how it is. We are in agreement anyway. Roos and Toumpas will get it right, I am confident of that.

Outside mids, like the way that Craig Bradley and Steven Stretch played, they are gone. I don't expect him to bash and crash through the game like Jones does but there are times when he will need to go, cliche but true.

If he doesn't consistently, he will be back at Casey, as would any other player.

Having exquisite skills does not indemnify you from winning hard footy. Having/doing both wins Brownlows, finals and flags.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Everyone has a role. Not everyone wins a lot of contested ball. Nor do you want them to. We need players who can deliver accurately to our fwds. Haven't had that in a long time.

If everyone wins contests consistently then you have 22 players consistently beating 22 opposition players and winning every week.

Now why would you want that?

NB: I don't want to derail another training thread but it's a good discussion that could perhaps be continued elsewhere.

Edited November 28, 2013 by jabberwocky

[Moonshadow 17,672]

Only Demonland could turn a positive training report into a pathetic argument based upon negatives.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Only Demonland could turn a positive training report into a pathetic argument based upon negatives.

Not sure what you are on about, there is a robust discussion about footy. Nothing pathetic here.

Demonland is a place for discussion about footy, give it a go.

[Deestroy All 14,262]

Not sure what you are on about, there is a robust discussion about footy. Nothing pathetic here.

Demonland is a place for discussion about footy, give it a go.

Like.

Yusuf is trippin'.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Deestroy All

[Demonsterative 3,020]

You're missing the point. Toumpas contested ball winning percentages were too low at junior level. Recruiters like 30% to be a minimum benchmark and Toumpas was the lowest of all highly ranked mids at 22. Cale Morton was another from his year that was very low in contested ball winning ability. This year it was Aish and interestingly he slipped out of the top 3 where he'd comfortably sat all year. And I'd say he fell due to his poor contested ball winning percentage. We need Toumpas to hurt on the outside with his beautifully weighted passes and to also win contested footy. It's an area he needs to improve. He knows it and the coaches know it.

You forget Toumpas had injury issues prior (therefore in his final year as a junior) to coming to the club. Nullifying his contested possession stats.

Secondly, run and carry was a massive issue (amongst many other issues) with our midfield in 2012. The club went with Toumpas knowing he had the ability to win his own ball and run and carry. he may not be a contested ball machine, but he is still capable.

Thirdly, GWS know in order to keep their young players, they needed to recruit players who create a culture. Vic players were a focus and SA youngsters are off their recruiting list. there fore Toumpas fell to us.

[Hannibal 5,814]

You forget Toumpas had injury issues prior (therefore in his final year as a junior) to coming to the club. Nullifying his contested possession stats.

Yeah, yeah, the old injury card. Jeez Melbourne supporters are good at making excuses.

You just need to watch him play footy to see that he's a link player and not a ball winner. I'm sure it will evolve.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Whatever, as long as you are always right, the top 10 this year as in every year was know from way out.....

Are you trying to defend the selection of Toumpas at pick 4 ? If so, why ? I'm not criticizing the pick, merely commenting on where he needs to improve.

In time, who gets taken in the top 10 means zilch. Exposed form determines the merits of any selection. Watts, Morton and Scully wouldn't be top 10 picks in hindsight. Where they were once rated now means didley. Except, of course, to long suffering Melbourne supporters who put their faith in the club getting things right.

[Roost It 1,434]

Toumpas won't make A grade

He'll be a steady B-

Typical top 5 Melbourne recruit

[Demonsterative 3,020]

And yet you rate him on games in his first year, recovering from hip surgery and pull out stats on a year in the juniors when he had to have hip surgery.

One in 4 or 5 possessions he gets a contested possession. We need runners, yet if he gets 20 possessions that equals 2 to 3 contested possessions.

Not bad, but In a good development program those stats should rise.

Jury is still out and I can see him as being more rounded than you propose.

What's your point?

[dees189227 12,361]

Can someone report back on what Bernie Vince is like. Is he a hard worker on the track and is he a nice guy?

[Generation dee 1,336]

You're missing the point. Toumpas contested ball winning percentages were too low at junior level. Recruiters like 30% to be a minimum benchmark and Toumpas was the lowest of all highly ranked mids at 22. Cale Morton was another from his year that was very low in contested ball winning ability. This year it was Aish and interestingly he slipped out of the top 3 where he'd comfortably sat all year. And I'd say he fell due to his poor contested ball winning percentage.

We need Toumpas to hurt on the outside with his beautifully weighted passes and to also win contested footy. It's an area he needs to improve. He knows it and the coaches know it.

The points you raise are valid, however is there a way to differentiate between a guy playing seniors at sanfl level, vs a guy playing at tac cup level? I mean, toumpas and aish wouldn't start onball every centre bounce, where as a guy like josh Kelly or Cale Morton playing tac cup are more likely to play onball longer.

I've seen enough of toumpas to feel he has a big future as an afl onballer. He sees gaps for handball releases, he keeps his feet (which will only increase as he builds core strength) and he uses the ball well. I see him developing into a jimmy bartel/chad wingard type. The days of being a pure mid are gone, you need to be able to go back, half forward etc, and I think toumpas will be able to be adaptable.

On a side note, has anyone seen much at training along the lines of stoppages and kick ins?

[Generation dee 1,336]

Can someone report back on what Bernie Vince is like. Is he a hard worker on the track and is he a nice guy?

I've known him for years. Great bloke. Mates with everyone and the type of guy you want to play footy with. Good trainer but probably not a Daniel Cross or Nathan Jones.