Wines is like a number of the small type players like Daniel Rich and Rys Palmer who are strong early and come on very quickly but don't get much better as they get older.

Or he could be the next Joel Selwood who starts well and just keeps getting better

Wines tonight had 14 or so touches, no tackles and a reasonably ineffective game. Toumpas against Geelong down in Geelong in the wet (in a game that counted for so much less) has 25 odd touches.

Joel Selwood for many years has been considered a gun. Travis Boak was taken 2 picks above Selwood in the draft and after a season Port supporters were scratching their head as Boak ran around a bit like a headless chook whilst Selwood became a key part of a super team. But as of now both are captains and top leaders at their club. Boak gets tagged most weeks but still impacts games especially at key moments which is also something Selwood is known for. Selwood is the ultimate hard inside player in the league, but Boak has the ability to run and carry and break lines that Selwood couldn't do.

No fan from either club would be disappointed in the player they have. Lets back ourselves in to develop a guy in Toumpas with outstanding potential. Because both Wines and Toumpas have great potential now and also both are miles off consistent top AFL mids. Wines has the lead but showed tonight he has a lot of work to do as well to be the best.

From what I've seen Wines has had an average night. He's been caught a lot with the ball and the stats say no effective tackles??(can't be right). He's had a massive year and is going to be a great player as will Jimmy T. As with Watts lets revisit this in 2-3 years.

revisit this in 3 years when Watts is a free agent? Spend 8 years developing and if he stays bad we lose and if he gets good he can walk for major coin. Lose/lose

Wines is like a number of the small type players like Daniel Rich and Rys Palmer who are strong early and come on very quickly but don't get much better as they get older.

And you'd be saying that if he was a first year player at Melbourne ?

So may supporters are biased. Not just Melbourne supporters, but in general.

also, wines is nothing like rich or palmer in terms of stature - he's actually tall, more like a josh kennedy, or dustin martin in terms of height, around 188-190.

jimmy is a 'small' midfielder by comparison, around the 178-180cm mark.

also, wines is nothing like rich or palmer in terms of stature - he's actually tall, more like a josh kennedy, or dustin martin in terms of height, around 188-190.

jimmy is a 'small' midfielder by comparison, around the 178-180cm mark.

Jimmy's 183, so more medium than small.

And you'd be saying that if he was a first year player at Melbourne ?

So may supporters are biased. Not just Melbourne supporters, but in general.

Which is to say they're driven by emotion rather than facts whenever their opinion differs with yours.

Is it too hard for Demonlanders to present their views, debate with others, discuss the pros and cons without vitriol, personal attacks on other posters, or ruining threads with pointless tangents? 2013 has been a shocker as a Dees supporter and sometimes the only connection to the season that gave me any pleasure were some of the discussions on this site. For the love of all things sacred drop the horrible aggressive rubbish and stop ruining other people's experiences on this forum.

Ollie Wines is a a very good young footballer who is ahead in his development over other draftees like Toumpas. He plays a tough, in and under brand of footy and can keep his head in big moments. However, he played a poor game last night.

Toumpas is a silky skilled, outside player who we want with the ball coming through wing/half forward. Once his inside/grunt footy develops he will be a 200+ game for the Dees.

And you'd be saying that if he was a first year player at Melbourne ?

So may supporters are biased. Not just Melbourne supporters, but in general.

Actually, if Wines was one of our players, some of the same posters lambasting JT now would probably be moaning about the fact that we didn't take Toumpas.

Hey Sambo

You had better realise any body who uses the term Keyboard Warrior is dismissed out of hand

BTW who are you havn't seen you on the site before Who are you Really??YOu wouldnt be a Ghost

have you got anything positive to say?????????? suggest you havea lie down............permanently!!

Is it too hard for Demonlanders to present their views, debate with others, discuss the pros and cons without vitriol, personal attacks on other posters, or ruining threads with pointless tangents? 2013 has been a shocker as a Dees supporter and sometimes the only connection to the season that gave me any pleasure were some of the discussions on this site. For the love of all things sacred drop the horrible aggressive rubbish and stop ruining other people's experiences on this forum.

Ollie Wines is a a very good young footballer who is ahead in his development over other draftees like Toumpas. He plays a tough, in and under brand of footy and can keep his head in big moments. However, he played a poor game last night.

Toumpas is a silky skilled, outside player who we want with the ball coming through wing/half forward. Once his inside/grunt footy develops he will be a 200+ game for the Dees.

I agree with much of what you say but I wouldn't say his game last night was "poor". It simply wasn't at the same high standard as the previous week and in his better games. Last night he was exposed to far greater pressure from Geelong in a finals game than at any time during the season.

That said, because he was in a much poorer team this year, Jimmy Toumpas was constantly under great pressure whenever he played. I'm sure he'll get better in time.

I agree with much of what you say but I wouldn't say his game last night was "poor".

I would. Caught often and poor disposal. Little influence.

I agree with much of what you say but I wouldn't say his game last night was "poor". It simply wasn't at the same high standard as the previous week and in his better games. Last night he was exposed to far greater pressure from Geelong in a finals game than at any time during the season.

That said, because he was in a much poorer team this year, Jimmy Toumpas was constantly under great pressure whenever he played. I'm sure he'll get better in time.

No 'Jack', I think he had a poor game last night. He just didn't have any effect on the game which is understandable as a first year player against a Geelong team who are streets ahead of the Collingwood team he played last week.

I think Wines has had a terrific first up year but I hope we don't have to keep going over this Wine/Toumpas stuff much longer. Looks like they both will be good players to me.

You guys are tough judges.

Jared Rivers got 6 touches last night and was subbed off. I thought he was "poor".

Wines picked up 14 possessions, 12 of them contested. Not his best - not great, but a fair effort from an 18 year old in a beaten side.

You guys are tough judges.

Jared Rivers got 6 touches last night and was subbed off. I thought he was "poor".

Wines picked up 14 possessions, 12 of them contested. Not his best - not great, but a fair effort from an 18 year old in a beaten side.

Jared was poor and has struggled with the tempo of Geelong footy all season, missing games through injury didn't help. He consistently gets caught in the wrong places but he does fill a role for the side and this may be the only thing that gets him a game next week with Hawthorns tall forwards. If they get through and play Freo I think he would be in doubt for a GF.

I think he was subbed with an injury though 'Jack' after Schulz slid into him although he deserved to be subbed out on form.

revisit this in 3 years when Watts is a free agent? Spend 8 years developing and if he stays bad we lose and if he gets good he can walk for major coin. Lose/lose

I get your point but I actually meant lets revisit the Wines/Toumpas comparison in 2-3 years. I was using the the Watts/Nik Nat as an example. Although Watts has to work on certain aspects of his game and we are all aware of what they are, he is slowly closing the gap on Natanui.