It's not about shooting up the ladder.

It's about stripping the culture of meekness and getting some combative spirit on the list.

It's a balancing act, while i agree we need to make sure we get the total club re-build correct in terms of new culture, new structure, and so on, we need to see a measure of on field success to stop the fall in membership rates each year, to get us to be a more attractive option to televise and play against and become a self sustaining club in our own right.

Having said that i think drafting Toumpas will prove to be the right decision, we can afford to build for our future, sure Wines would have been better right now, how much better is hard to say because we don't have a boak or wingard around to support him, Toumpas has played some good patches, his skills are amazing and will be huge in terms of building the sort of list we are working at and will be a jet of a player for alot of years.

It's a balancing act, while i agree we need to make sure we get the total club re-build correct in terms of new culture, new structure, and so on, we need to see a measure of on field success to stop the fall in membership rates each year, to get us to be a more attractive option to televise and play against and become a self sustaining club in our own right.

Having said that i think drafting Toumpas will prove to be the right decision, we can afford to build for our future, sure Wines would have been better right now, how much better is hard to say because we don't have a boak or wingard around to support him, Toumpas has played some good patches, his skills are amazing and will be huge in terms of building the sort of list we are working at and will be a jet of a player for alot of years.

this

this

In two years time when Toumpas is delivering lace out passes to clark, dawes and hogan opinions might be different, and we already had Viney a more highly rated inside midfielder so i can see why some don't agree with the decision, i don't think it's as bad as say the decision to recruit, gillies, byrnes, rodan and pederson.

In two years time when Toumpas is delivering lace out passes to clark, dawes and hogan opinions might be different, and we already had Viney a more highly rated inside midfielder so i can see why some don't agree with the decision, i don't think it's as bad as say the decision to recruit, gillies, byrnes, rodan and pederson.

Hope you're right D26.

If he does, I want him to deliver the pill with the attitude of a Selwood or a Mitchell. With a snarl, with arrogance, with disdain.

Anyone that can kick a footy like Toumpas will play 200 games, he's in a [censored] side with little support, if spuds like Trengove , Blease and Strauss where playing like we thought they would we wouldn't be in this position, the kid will be elite with the skills he has.

In two years time when Toumpas is delivering lace out passes to clark, dawes and hogan opinions might be different, and we already had Viney a more highly rated inside midfielder so i can see why some don't agree with the decision, i don't think it's as bad as say the decision to recruit, gillies, byrnes, rodan and pederson.

I think many are misconstruing what some of us are saying.. We arent knocking the idea of Toumpas per se. I / we agree he will ( most likely) develop into a better than average player. The question is/was .....was he the right choice at the time given we are who we are and where we are. ?

Some of us simply take the position he wasnt. Thats not to say hes not a decent pick, just not the one we needed then/now.

Anyone that can kick a footy like Toumpas will play 200 games, he's in a [censored] side with little support, if spuds like Trengove , Blease and Strauss where playing like we thought they would we wouldn't be in this position, the kid will be elite with the skills he has.

ahh...Blease Strauss.. yepp.. lemons. Trenners gone from ^^^^^^^ to vvvvvvv

another thing entirely

I think many are misconstruing what some of us are saying.. We arent knocking the idea of Toumpas per se. I / we agree he will ( most likely) develop into a better than average player. The question is/was .....was he the right choice at the time given we are who we are and where we are. ?

Some of us simply take the position he wasnt. Thats not to say hes not a decent pick, just not the one we needed then/now.

Agree mate, but i think that's the case with half our list, blease, strauss, and co aren't worth much if we can't get the ball in the first place

ahh...Blease Strauss.. yepp.. lemons. Trenners gone from ^^^^^^^ to vvvvvvv

another thing entirely

Very good bb!

Really.. I may have given more body to my stance but its the same one.

Wines and Toupmas are like any kids with ability hopefully long term ( 150-200 ) game prospects. Im not sure where I havent thought this.

Also Ive said that imho Wines is Inside meat and veg, Toumpas outside icing on cake.

Toumpas is 2-3 years away from being anything of real note.

Wines is doing real and meaningful things RIGHT NOW .

If I had the pick..I would have chosen Wines over Toumpas...doesnt even bear 5 secs thinking really// What do we lack ?? Go at it inside mids.

Please explain your thinking Ive changed my tune

In the same post you're admitting that both players are long term prospects and then saying that we should have taken Wines solely because he would have had more of an impact for us in 2013.

So, you're saying we should have taken Wines simply and only because he is better in 2013, despite admitting that both players are going to improve in the long run.

Pick 4 is never about an impact from day 1. Pick 4 is about making sure you get the player who is most likely to give you 200 games. Wines might do that, but Toumpas equally might, and as many have said on here, Toumpas is showing signs of being a classier, more complete player than Wines. Yet you continue to bleat on about how Wines would have had more of an impact in 2013. The impact our player from pick 4 was going to have in 2013 should not have been relevant at all to the drafting decision.

Anyone that can kick a footy like Toumpas will play 200 games, he's in a [censored] side with little support, if spuds like Trengove , Blease and Strauss where playing like we thought they would we wouldn't be in this position, the kid will be elite with the skills he has.

A bit simplistic - Strauss can kick a footy like Toumpas, if not better.

So many just dont want to accept reality and constantly offer up excuses upon excuses as to why our stuff ups are really understandable.

its not so much that Toumpas is no good. its that he was the wrong choice in light of our needs NOW

That this kid comes good in 2-3 years is wonderful. where will the rest of the team be ?u

Exactly BB59 people on here just dont get it We do not have the time and the recruiting should reflect it.It just hasnt and even a simple choice like Wines over Toumpas shows that the club doesnt know what it is doing Martin over Trengove e list goes on and on and on!

In the same post you're admitting that both players are long term prospects and then saying that we should have taken Wines solely because he would have had more of an impact for us in 2013.

So, you're saying we should have taken Wines simply and only because he is better in 2013, despite admitting that both players are going to improve in the long run.

Pick 4 is never about an impact from day 1. Pick 4 is about making sure you get the player who is most likely to give you 200 games. Wines might do that, but Toumpas equally might, and as many have said on here, Toumpas is showing signs of being a classier, more complete player than Wines. Yet you continue to bleat on about how Wines would have had more of an impact in 2013. The impact our player from pick 4 was going to have in 2013 should not have been relevant at all to the drafting decision.

That the Carp BB is talking about Titan

Too many people think that because a player bursts on to the scene he will inevatabely fade and the sure and steady will come through in the end, well that doesn't always happen. Sometimes a player bursts on to the scene because he's a good player and it may surprise a few but these players can actually get better too, it's not just the sure and steadies that go on to be good footballers. God forbid we'd pick a player that's ready to play when we can get one that's got a lot of development in him.

There has to be common sense used and a player like Wines screamed "pick me".

We passed over a player who is and will be an excellent player, for another we hope we can develop in to one; let's just hope they haven't stuffed this one up too.

Sometimes 2 players are different types of players, develop at different rates, and are both very good.

Sometimes you need 1 type a lot more than the other.

Sometimes supporters are impatient, ignorant and wear blinkers.

A bit simplistic - Strauss can kick a footy like Toumpas, if not better.

I think better, he has a lot more depth but never gets it enough.

Toumpas is the Gibbs of the draft, Wines is the Selwood.

Toumpas is the Gibbs of the draft, Wines is the Selwood.

You sure Toumpas isn't the Cotchin of the draft, while Wines isn't the Rhys Palmer?

We could make these stupid ill-informed comparisons all day.

Toumpas is the Gibbs of the draft, Wines is the Selwood.

i reckon our own Jack Viney might be the closest thing to selwood in the draft, wines might be more like a brock mclean yet, we really don't know how the kids are going to develop.

Assuming our development problems are finally in order i think jimmy will be abit like a joey montagna, just my personal opinion but i can see some similarities

Toumpas is the Gibbs of the draft, Wines is the Selwood.

Toumpas is the Cotchin of the draft Wines is the Palmer

Every poster on this site who wants to drag Tompass name through mud in less than a year should be ashamed of themselves. For god sake its possible that overexpectation or ridicules slowed Watts development.

Patience. Yes I know everyone is sick of waiting as am I but theres no other option availible. We need to do this right, once and for all. If this means our path to sucsess will be slow, so be it. It is possible to have a culture of a Geelong or Hawthorn. Sucsess takes time though and failing this will cause further questions over whether its best for the MFC brand to continue to exist. Peter Jackson is god, oviously not literally, but a god figgure sent to us by the AFL to get our team right. And the AFL is committed to assisting us in our road to sustained sucsess.

We, as supporters need to stop making negitive comments about our players during early years. Give them a chance!

Toumpas the cotchin and wines the next palmer.. there are some absolute muppets on this board.

Peter Jackson said it on OTC last night, we have relied on getting high draft picks and these players just realising their talent rather than developing them properly. Toumpas is a great talent, you've got to have blinkers on not to see it, but he is not someone that will just get there because he's that good, we must make sure that he works his butt off and really wants to get there. His game vs Lions shows that he has a long way to go, but I felt he responded relatively well vs the Kangas (in the grand scheme of things).

He's got plenty of potential, and I really think he and Viney can become a lethal combo.

Too early to call long-term value, but right now Wines is so far ahead it doesn't bare thinking. The kid is a star. I'd love to lure him home one day to play alongside his best mate in a partnership that could carry the midfield for 10 years, but fairy tales often don't happen the way you expect.

At least PJ has identified player development as priority 1. Toump has some great attributes. He's a raw talent.

and the fact you didn't give Dunn votes yesterday says a lot about your footy knowledge

Maybe it says that keeping Lindsay Thomas quiet didn't excuse the fact that he was responsible for turning it over to all the other North Melbourne players