if jack viney played at geelong he would be dominating, dont underestimate the difference better support makes

  On 28/07/2013 at 12:37, jumbo returns said:

Forget about Daniel Cross.

Will probably retire at the end of the season.

Will be 31 next year and injuries are catching up with him.

Agree, he will finish up a one club player at the end of the season. He has no more to give, got the best out of himself.

Jack Viney actually said in an interview that if there was one guy he hoped to be drafted with it was Jimmy Toumpas because he works harder than anyone to succeed. I don't follow the juniors much, but was definitely hoping that Jimmy would slip to us in the draft after that.

  On 28/07/2013 at 12:04, why you little said:

Toumpas may well be a better player in 3 years.

But the MFC may be done and finished by then.

We need mid extractors now!!!!

If we needed Wines as much as you say we do then Magner would be playing now. Or Couch. Or McKenzie. They aren't.

Remind me again of all the classy, hard running finishing midfielders we have one the list at the moment that can take Toumpas' spot. Who are they?

Look at the players we selected in the draft:

- Toumpas, Viney, Kent, Jones, Terlich, Stark, Clisby, Barry.

- We also brought in Dawes, Hogan, Pederson, Byrnes and Rodan.

Aside from Viney (and Stark as a rookie), every non-KPP we drafted was a running outside player that could hit targets. Drafting Wines would have been totally against this.

Why was this the case? Well look at the weekend, where our inability to run and hit targets resulted in us losing by over 100 points. I would assume that we will probably follow this path again, as we get more and more runners with good skills.

So who are the hard running, skilful midfielders that are ready to take Toumpas' spot?

  On 28/07/2013 at 12:39, Ron Burgundy said:

I'm not worried about Toumpas. At all.

We've certainly made some astonishingly bad draft decisions in recent years, but Toumpas isn't one of them.

As WYL said, impact players were needed.

Jimmy doesn't have the presence or strength to impose himself on a game.

Wines has done it in his first year.

  On 28/07/2013 at 12:44, Axis of Bob said:

If we needed Wines as much as you say we do then Magner would be playing now. Or Couch. Or McKenzie. They aren't.

Remind me again of all the classy, hard running finishing midfielders we have one the list at the moment that can take Toumpas' spot. Who are they?

Look at the players we selected in the draft:

- Toumpas, Viney, Kent, Jones, Terlich, Stark, Clisby, Barry.

- We also brought in Dawes, Hogan, Pederson, Byrnes and Rodan.

Aside from Viney (and Stark as a rookie), every non-KPP we drafted was a running outside player that could hit targets. Drafting Wines would have been totally against this.

Why was this the case? Well look at the weekend, where our inability to run and hit targets resulted in us losing by over 100 points. I would assume that we will probably follow this path again, as we get more and more runners with good skills.

So who are the hard running, skilful midfielders that are ready to take Toumpas' spot?

We don't get our hands on the ball to have a chance to kick it.

Is Toumpas ready to get the hard ball? No he is not.

Wines is.

For what we need now...We should have drafted Wines imo.

Magner is VFL standard.

We need meat and potatoes before the skill

2 i50's on saturday against a mid tier side tells the story.

I will be stunned if we beat GW$ next week.

  On 28/07/2013 at 12:05, rjay said:

No, you don't pick up a development player at his pick. That's for a smokey down the list who will play a bit a Casey and may surprise.

He's playing a lot of senior footy, some good, some bad. Wouldn't expect much different at this stage, I think he will be ok..

The hip op happened around this time last year and is being over played a bit, he did a preseason with the rest of the new boys and like them all he needs time to build on that. It's always a reduced programs for 1st year players.

Have you had a hip op or knee op? Just a basic arthroscopy?

For a player like Toumpas who needs time to build his body, not skills, it can be a bigger hindrance than you think.

With hips ops you cant do alot of movement; muscle loss is really amazing and the recovery period is longer than you'd expect. Which would have been followed very strictly by the club because, as you noted, his program would be reduced and they would not want to jeperdise his long term career over it.

I reckon he will be ok too. As you mentioned, some good footy and some bad. Cant wait to see what a full preseason will do for him.

The fact that Toumpas can only find about 5 possessions in the midfield, and has been used as an unreliable spare defender just so he can find the ball doesn't really give me too much hope

  On 28/07/2013 at 13:42, Neeld Aniher said:

The fact that Toumpas can only find about 5 possessions in the midfield, and has been used as an unreliable spare defender just so he can find the ball doesn't really give me too much hope

and the fact you didn't give Dunn votes yesterday says a lot about your footy knowledge

i have absolute confidence jimmy will be worth the wait.

  On 28/07/2013 at 13:57, Demonfan26 said:

i have absolute confidence jimmy will be worth the wait.

i have been waiting for something to happen since 2007. What i have seen is this club plummet down and other club shoot past us

I don't want to wait any more. I want to see something....

  On 28/07/2013 at 13:36, PJ_12345 said:

Have you had a hip op or knee op? Just a basic arthroscopy?

For a player like Toumpas who needs time to build his body, not skills, it can be a bigger hindrance than you think.

With hips ops you cant do alot of movement; muscle loss is really amazing and the recovery period is longer than you'd expect. Which would have been followed very strictly by the club because, as you noted, his program would be reduced and they would not want to jeperdise his long term career over it.

I reckon he will be ok too. As you mentioned, some good footy and some bad. Cant wait to see what a full preseason will do for him.

No hip op but a basic arthroscopy. Sucked into playing another game when I had retired, didn't need a lot of convincing to play though. Wish I could still do it.

He'll be ok, I reckon his biggest problem is he puts too much pressure on himself. A bit of time and another pre season or so as you say and he will settle.

Have you had a hip op or knee op? Just a basic arthroscopy?

For a player like Toumpas who needs time to build his body, not skills, it can be a bigger hindrance than you think.

With hips ops you cant do alot of movement; muscle loss is really amazing and the recovery period is longer than you'd expect. Which would have been followed very strictly by the club because, as you noted, his program would be reduced and they would not want to jeperdise his long term career over it.

I reckon he will be ok too. As you mentioned, some good footy and some bad. Cant wait to see what a full preseason will do for him.

What he had done was major surgery guys. He had double Hip Impingement Surgery. This involves doing one hip at a time as you can't do both together. Normally you go to hospital for the first surgery, then return for second op a few weeks later. This allows time for the healing to start on the first hip before they go back in to do the second. The ops can be damaging if not performed correctly. Shaving bone off the Femur is major work. Our Hips are the main swivel points for our bodies and are the basis for all Core strength and flexibility. On both hips it is tough going for the patient. With Hip Impingements, there is also a very high possibility that there is also Cartilage damage which would also require cleaning up in both hips. Complete recovery from this type of surgery can take up to 12 months. Being so young, and as stated previously, a first year player, Jimmy's pre season would normally have been about 50% anyway. My understanding of this type of surgery and its recovery time means a responsible Club would limit him to approximately a 25% pre season. This would definitely reduce fitness, explosiveness and power in a youngster trying to make his way in the AFL. Lets all just hold off and wait and see how young Toump goes with another pre season under his belt. I have a feeling also that we will see the beginning of our next Star this time next year. I know it's been frustratingly long, but it's gone on this long!

  On 28/07/2013 at 13:42, Neeld Aniher said:

The fact that Toumpas can only find about 5 possessions in the midfield, and has been used as an unreliable spare defender just so he can find the ball doesn't really give me too much hope

In case you didn't watch the game, Toumpas was spare because North kept setting up with an extra man back. That's where they get their run and drive from the back fifty.

I'd say the reason Toump was used as spare man is because if the other guys could get the ball into his hands, we'd actually have a good chance at hitting up a target coming out of defense instead of kicking long to a pack.

  On 28/07/2013 at 12:24, titan_uranus said:

When you have to resort to 'but the MFC might not exist in three years' as your idea of a rational argument, you must be struggling.

Its about as good an argument though as hypothesising that someone might be better than another through sheer guesstimating Id suggest !!

What If Toumpas is good, but Wines still better ?? Thats just as possible and would sink all the arguments based upon Dimitri skipping past..

What we do KNOW is in front of us. What I know is Id rather Wines assisting in a meaningful manner in the middle, right now.

Wines ( like his mate Viney ) are notorious for tacking all comers on. Little Jimmy isnt at that point.

I havent seen anyone write that Toumpas isnt a quality player . But most of his value lays in his potential. That ought to be the clubs motto. Whats latin for " We draft potential and kill it "

It's turnovers that have been absolutely KILLING us.

We need more draftees like Jimmy Toumpas, not less.

Like everyone here, I really like Wines - but he has the likes of Boak and Hartlett running alongside him. Big difference.

  On 28/07/2013 at 12:30, jumbo returns said:

Did Viney pick Toumpas so that Vines wouldn't show up Jack jnr?

This post is embarrassing for you.

  On 28/07/2013 at 12:33, Demonfan26 said:

viney is pretty much wines with pace, better skills and a desire to play for mfc

Viney is hopefully going to be very good.

But on what we've seen of Wines, nothing suggests he is below Jack in any area.

Viney is more explosive, but Wines is bigger, stronger and there is nothing wrong with his skills.

Ollie has the points on the board, Dees fans only knock him because we haven't got him.

That is not Ollie Wines fault, he also had a strong desire to play for the MFC.

I much prefer Wines Vs Viney comparisons though, than Wines Vs Toumpas.

Viney has shown that he might catch and surpass Ollie eventually, but Toumpas hasn't shown that.

Agree Ollies footskills arent even as bad as people are making it out to be. Something ollie has managed to aswell is go forward and hit the scoreboard. Something jack and toumpas havent been able to do.

If the draft were re-held today, Wines and Mayes would be taken before Toumpas, Ploughman and O’Rourke, and possibly even Whitfield. But recruiters don’t have the benefit of seeing players under AFL pressure before they are drafted and things can change significantly as players mature from 18 years old. Given Wines and Mayes are not at Judd, Selwood or O’Meara’s level, it is too early to conclude that Toumpas was a mistake, although it looks probable at this stage. This is particularly so given Toumpas is coming off an injury interrupted preseason.

  On 28/07/2013 at 23:50, Fat Tony said:

If the draft were re-held today, Wines and Mayes would be taken before Toumpas, Ploughman and O’Rourke, and possibly even Whitfield. But recruiters don’t have the benefit of seeing players under AFL pressure before they are drafted and things can change significantly as players mature from 18 years old. Given Wines and Mayes are not at Judd, Selwood or O’Meara’s level, it is too early to conclude that Toumpas was a mistake, although it looks probable at this stage. This is particularly so given Toumpas is coming off an injury interrupted preseason.

No doubt it would change but the argument of a few in here is that we needed to get an 'impact player' with Pick 4.

What nonsense.

You do not draft in the top 10 for the next season's impact. You try and use all your collective brain power and footy knowledge and try to draft the best player when they are 22.

What a ridiculous notion to draft an impact player...

It would be funny if our drafting in the past hadn't been do heinous.

Use trades or the draft after Pick 50 for impact.

  On 28/07/2013 at 22:44, Machiavelli said:

This post is embarrassing for you.

Indeed?

Are we repressing the dark thought that another draft mistake has been committed??

  On 28/07/2013 at 23:04, ThreeOneSix said:

Viney is hopefully going to be very good.

But on what we've seen of Wines, nothing suggests he is below Jack in any area.

Viney is more explosive, but Wines is bigger, stronger and there is nothing wrong with his skills.

Ollie has the points on the board, Dees fans only knock him because we haven't got him.

That is not Ollie Wines fault, he also had a strong desire to play for the MFC.

I much prefer Wines Vs Viney comparisons though, than Wines Vs Toumpas.

Viney has shown that he might catch and surpass Ollie eventually, but Toumpas hasn't shown that.

That is the most frustrating aspect for us is that Wines was a ready made player that is already hard at the ball and can tackle.

What do we do take a player that has had problems that cannot tackle.

Think of this for a scenario.

Ollie Wines at the end of the season says he hats Adelaide and wants to go back to Victoria. He also says he only wants to play for Melbourne.

What does the MFC do?

Do we offer Jimmy Toupmas.

Trouble is that Toumpas has very little currency now.

Hopefully those that say we made the right selection will see how we totally stuffed up once again with a first round selection in the draft.

We needed a player that will lead and drive the team up the ladder. Wines is the player we needed now. Toumpas is the player we may need in 3-5 seasons.

Not at all.

Since Jack Viney and Ollie Wines would essentially perform the same role, one would be missing out on games at the expense of the other.

Are we maybe jumping the gun in proclaiming a first year drafted to be a relative failure?

With Viney, our needs dictated that our pressing need was another "elite" (at junior level) user of the footy.

Wines is not that.

It's possible Wines is better at this strengths than we originally perceived, but that says nothing of his weaknesses.

At the same time, Toumpas has more of the "hard to find" attributes that should make him a success in the future.

I thought as football supporters we were smart enough not to judge kids on their output in their first season?

  On 29/07/2013 at 00:09, Machiavelli said:

Not at all.

Since Jack Viney and Ollie Wines would essentially perform the same role, one would be missing out on games at the expense of the other.

Are we maybe jumping the gun in proclaiming a first year drafted to be a relative failure?

With Viney, our needs dictated that our pressing need was another "elite" (at junior level) user of the footy.

Wines is not that.

It's possible Wines is better at this strengths than we originally perceived, but that says nothing of his weaknesses.

At the same time, Toumpas has more of the "hard to find" attributes that should make him a success in the future.

I thought as football supporters we were smart enough not to judge kids on their output in their first season?

Just like supporters are also smart enough to see that we draft outside players - instead of inside types who actually go in and get the ball.

Supporters aren't silly, we have to watch the Cale Mortons and Jordan Gysberts' year after year, when we could have the Dangerfields and other great players.

We have to watch the Dustins Martins and Ollies WInes go around dominating the competition when they were exactly what we needed at the time.

MFC drafters seem to have the mentality that they need a Chris Judd type player, when there are usually an abundance of Selwood types on offer, which is what we've needed the past decade.

After years of talking down Dustin Martin, I guess now it's Dees fans to talk down Ollie Wines, but it's not Martin or Wines fault they are absolute guns.