Time to go Mark Neeld

[Axis of Bob 11,804]

Do you have a comprehension issue; where did I say that Craig would be the magic bullet? I said, would Craig do a worse job. If Neeld was sacked and they asked Craig to do the job he'd take it I'd bet on that.

What about you answer the rest of my questions bob; or is it simply that you are a windbag with nothing of substance to say. How many wins bob, how many losses, how low our % before you finally get the message. You happy with the latest flogging or was that an honorable loss?

I am a very different person to you in that the wins and losses don't make as much difference to my thoughts as they do to yours. I know you will dismiss this as madness because that's just the way you are wired to think. But I work differently.

I am looking in the longer term to you. I am looking at Neeld and wondering about whether he is moulding a team that can be successful long term. At the moment I am neither here nor there, but I do know that those advocating for an immediate sacking are not necessarily thinking about anything past their own nose (and emotions).

[leehow 303]

I support what Neeld is doing, and understand that we are not going to fix things in a season and a bit. He has said from the start that it will take 3 years, and I hope the club gives him that time. At worst, I would hope they give him at least until near the end of this season. If that is the case, and he gets the next 10-12 rounds, for the people that want him gone immediately, is there anything that could change your mind? Will a couple of unexpected wins and some good performances against stronger teams change your minds? Or does it not matter what happens, you just want him gone?

[Dee Fan 3,247]

So your argument is that the 'irreparable damage' that he's causing is to the credibility of the club. I don't see how the club can be sullied any more in the next 16 rounds than it has over the last 5 years. I don't see that damage as being 'irreparable'.

If Neeld is not the right man for the job, then he will find himself without a job in the future. However I don't think, after a season and a bit, we can judge whether or not he is the right man for the job. What we do know is that he came into a culture that stank and it has been his main focus to turn that around. If Neeld doesn't turn out to be the right man for the job then I would say that he has left the club in a better state than he found it. Therefore I disagree that his presence as coach is something that needs to be snuffed out ASAP.

Should we bring in Craig (who won't coach) or one of the assistants, they will coach in a very similar way to Neeld. Why? Because you can't teach a new style of play during the season when they have been training in a different style.

The only thing that would happen if we replace a coach less than half way through his contract (!), is we make ourselves an even less desirable place to both coach and play. We will be seen like Richmond of the late 80s who couldn't get anyone of note, nor any success, because coaches were sacked at the first sign of trouble.

Neeld is a very process driven coach. He has set in place a plan that he has proposed will take him through his first contract. To sack him now would be like leaving Splash Mountain because you didn't like the singing.

So you ask me for details but you can only come up with that?

Answer my questions bob, I don't want any of your waffle, give me some facts or at least give me something.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I am a very different person to you in that the wins and losses don't make as much difference to my thoughts as they do to yours. I know you will dismiss this as madness because that's just the way you are wired to think. But I work differently.

I am looking in the longer term to you. I am looking at Neeld and wondering about whether he is moulding a team that can be successful long term. At the moment I am neither here nor there, but I do know that those advocating for an immediate sacking are not necessarily thinking about anything past their own nose (and emotions).

It's interesting that you would choose me to answer the question when I, probably, have been one of the lesser posters to demand that Neeld be sacked. However here we are and as usual you try to point score rather than answer questions.

Whilst you wonder and don't concern yourself with wins and losses, the average supporter does, so if we continue to lose, whilst it will obviously come as a surprise to you, we will lose support and money. Yes I'm wired that way because I run a business and understand how it works in the real World, you obviously don't.

So whilst you're neither here nor there the [censored] is hitting the fan supporters are deserting us and sponsors will stay away, but that's ok isn't it bob, we can't have both a short term and long term strategy, that would be too complicated for you to understand.

It's all about perception, when your down you at least have to appear to be doing something, not sitting on your ass hoping things will get better. Your a sitter aren't you bob.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I support what Neeld is doing, and understand that we are not going to fix things in a season and a bit. He has said from the start that it will take 3 years, and I hope the club gives him that time. At worst, I would hope they give him at least until near the end of this season. If that is the case, and he gets the next 10-12 rounds, for the people that want him gone immediately, is there anything that could change your mind? Will a couple of unexpected wins and some good performances against stronger teams change your minds? Or does it not matter what happens, you just want him gone?

If Neeld can get the team to perform like an AFL side over the next 5 or so weeks then I'd say his position is safe, if they continue to play like a suburban club, I would want him gone.

I have no issue with Neeld I just can't see how, given his performance to date, he can be considered an appropriate AFL coach.

One thing I'd say is if he starts trying to prop up the side with the delisted ones we got at the last draft then he might as well give it away, I'd have more respect if he went down fighting and playing the kids. I'd rather see some improvement in them than some honorable losses with the older players in the side.

[Axis of Bob 11,804]

It's interesting that you would choose me to answer the question when I, probably, have been one of the lesser posters to demand that Neeld be sacked.

I asked the question openly. You were the only one to reply to it, so I asked you.

.

However here we are and as usual you try to point score rather than answer questions.

As usual? When have we ever done this in the past?

Also, which questions have I not addressed? If you point them out to me then I will happily expand on my views.

Whilst you wonder and don't concern yourself with wins and losses, the average supporter does, so if we continue to lose, whilst it will obviously come as a surprise to you, we will lose support and money. Yes I'm wired that way because I run a business and understand how it works in the real World, you obviously don't.So whilst you're neither here nor there the [censored] is hitting the fan supporters are deserting us and sponsors will stay away, but that's ok isn't it bob, we can't have both a short term and long term strategy, that would be too complicated for you to understand.

I'm sorry if you consider me to be considered, rather than being rash and decisive. By saying you are 'wired that way' I didn't consider that I was being malicious, since I followed it up by telling you how I was wired. I know you run a business, because you tell us reasonably often .... almost defensively.

But that aside, do you honestly believe that the next 3 months will cause irreparable damage that hasn't already been caused by being awful since 2007? Why do you believe that this 3 month period is more important than the rest?

It's all about perception, when your down you at least have to appear to be doing something, not sitting on your ass hoping things will get better. Your a sitter aren't you bob.

It's all about perception? What will sacking a coach do to our perception as a club? How will sacking a coach help us to keep supporters (that have stayed with us for the last 6 years but now suddenly decide that they'll jump ship because we didn't sack a coach in round 6)? How will sponsors feel about a club that shows no inclination toward honouring a partnership and contract? How would sponsors feel about a club wasting their sponsorship money by throwing it away on a contract payout for a coach, only to have the interim coach come in and do the same thing anyway?

You may consider my considered approach to not be part of the real world, but I suppose that's what your real world looks like. It's just the way you're (you are) wired.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

would everyone here have fired Mark Thompson or Damien Hardwick, or even Mick Malthouse, although we have not played well early on this season ,we are in the second year of a full list rebuild, anyone who thought the players we had brought in were going to carry us up the ladder are plain daft, these players were for leadership, and bigger bodies to chop out some of our smaller bodies, and provide depth in the case of injuries.

Make no mistake, we are going through a rebuild of the club, player group, tactics and culture and there is no way that we can sack the person who is on the front of it so early into what he is beginning. is this an ideal start to the season? no! are there positives from most of the games? yes! did the game against carlton show that other than a few lapses in concentration and vital skill that our application is there and that we are working the game plan and game style out? yes!

at the end of the day we are missing our top 2 key forwards, and we dont have the depth to cover it.

our midfield is pretty much the least experienced in the afl, and this is where games are won, once we add 50-100 games to these players, 2 - 3 seasons we will have a much greater idea of where we sit, if in 2 years time we are not competitive, then neeld will be in trouble, but at the end of the day when our core midfield group doesnt have the cattle to win matches then we will not win matches.

Rucks:

Jake Spener: 17 games

Max Gawn: 7 games

Mids:

Nathan Jones:141 games

Jack Grimes: 59 games

Matt Jones: 6 games

Lynden Dunn:101 games

Rohan Bail: 40 games

Jordie Mckenzie:60 games

Michael Evans: 8 games

Colin Sylvia: 144 games

Jack Viney: 5 games

which is a touch over 50 games average between them!

compare that to any of the other midfields we come up against and no doubt this is the major gap!

None the less my point is, sure we have not played many "good" games, and our results on paper do not look great but we have definitely been showing signs of improvement, the foundation is there, and we have out project manager, let him get his project underway and if its faulty at the end of it then we will have another melbourne eye just laying around, but there is no doubt that we should let him work on what he is trying to do!

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I asked the question openly. You were the only one to reply to it, so I asked you.

.

As usual? When have we ever done this in the past?

Also, which questions have I not addressed? If you point them out to me then I will happily expand on my views.

I'm sorry if you consider me to be considered, rather than being rash and decisive. By saying you are 'wired that way' I didn't consider that I was being malicious, since I followed it up by telling you how I was wired. I know you run a business, because you tell us reasonably often .... almost defensively.

But that aside, do you honestly believe that the next 3 months will cause irreparable damage that hasn't already been caused by being awful since 2007? Why do you believe that this 3 month period is more important than the rest?

It's all about perception? What will sacking a coach do to our perception as a club? How will sacking a coach help us to keep supporters (that have stayed with us for the last 6 years but now suddenly decide that they'll jump ship because we didn't sack a coach in round 6)? How will sponsors feel about a club that shows no inclination toward honouring a partnership and contract? How would sponsors feel about a club wasting their sponsorship money by throwing it away on a contract payout for a coach, only to have the interim coach come in and do the same thing anyway?

You may consider my considered approach to not be part of the real world, but I suppose that's what your real world looks like. It's just the way you're (you are) wired.

Your a waffler bob you try to answer questions with questions, I'm guessing you're (you are) a politician.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I am a very different person to you in that the wins and losses don't make as much difference to my thoughts as they do to yours. I know you will dismiss this as madness because that's just the way you are wired to think. But I work differently.

I am looking in the longer term to you. I am looking at Neeld and wondering about whether he is moulding a team that can be successful long term. At the moment I am neither here nor there, but I do know that those advocating for an immediate sacking are not necessarily thinking about anything past their own nose (and emotions).

Come on bob, how low do we have to get before you become emotional about it how many losses in a row before you're (you are) convinced that Neeld can't coach. How many supporters will have to walk away from the club before you realise that Neeld is damaging the club?

What's your tipping point bob?

Edited May 6, 2013 by RobbieF

[Axis of Bob 11,804]

Come on bob, how low do we have to get before you become emotional about it how many losses in a row before you're (you are) convinced that Neeld can't coach. How many supporters will have to walk away from the club before you realise that Neeld is damaging the club?

What's your tipping point bob?

It isn't about wins and losses. That is too broad a tool to use to judge.

I look for improvement between and within games and look to see if that is sustainable. There are a thousand other things I look for too, but whether we win the game means sweet FA in relation to our long term prospects of a flag.

The real world isn't black and white. There is glorious grey everywhere.

[pitmaster 3,549]

It is a shame this debate is taking place but consider the context that has provoked it: we are in the tougher half of our season's draw. Expansions aside, the first 11 rounds include eight against finals contenders as perceived at the start of the year, plus Port Adelaide who have clearly taken big strides over summer (off a better base than us).

Rounds 12-22 look to be a better measure of where we stand with games against the Bdogs (twice), the expansions (on the road), the Saints, Norf, Brisbane again and contenders like Sydney and Freo.

By this time Clark and Grimes and Watts and Dawes should all be available and even if some are not the teams in the second half include those we can better measure ourselves against.

And finally, I am with M Jones when he says the scoreboard did not do us justice last week. We were better than that and for whatever reason are playing better football than in rounds one to three.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

It isn't about wins and losses. That is too broad a tool to use to judge.

I look for improvement between and within games and look to see if that is sustainable. There are a thousand other things I look for too, but whether we win the game means sweet FA in relation to our long term prospects of a flag.

The real world isn't black and white. There is glorious grey everywhere.

Well that's one of the questions I asked and you didn't answer; where have we improved?

btw at the end of the year your position on the ladder and your attractiveness to sponsors and supporters is generally measured by wins, not some obscure KPI's.

[Satyriconhome 10,872]

Well that's one of the questions I asked and you didn't answer; where have we improved?

btw at the end of the year your position on the ladder and your attractiveness to sponsors and supporters is generally measured by wins, not some obscure KPI's.

No it's not old chap, try asking a few questions and do a bit of research and you will find 'your wins' is not correct, besides which supporters are not walking away in droves, the membership is creeping along nicely, because people can see past the rubbish perpetuated by some journalists and regurgitated by some on here. It is only a 'select' band of so called supporters on here who want to see the Club fail so they justity to themselves that they were/are right, sad really

[Pipefitter 2,159]

Just went back and read some of the threads when Mark Neeld was appointed, Mick Malthouse after strongly endorsing Neeld as a potential senior coach quoted " Melbourne will make the finals next year (2012) with the right coach"

well....

Scott pendelbury and dale Thomas both credited alot of their rise as players to Mark Neeld

It really makes you ask yourself what has gone so wrong between then and now to see us in this position.

I think the jump from assistant coach to senior coach is huge. As an assistant you are driving your coaches ideas. Now he's the one in the drivers seat. There was an idea that all the players that left last year weren't interested in working as hard as neeld wanted them to. I reckon thats bull. They are athletes, they enjoy pushing themselves. They wouldn't do this otherwise. I think they just left because they don't reckon he can coach.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Pipefitter

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

No it's not old chap, try asking a few questions and do a bit of research and you will find 'your wins' is not correct, besides which supporters are not walking away in droves, the membership is creeping along nicely, because people can see past the rubbish perpetuated by some journalists and regurgitated by some on here. It is only a 'select' band of so called supporters on here who want to see the Club fail so they justity to themselves that they were/are right, sad really

Membership = 31,727. Yep, "creeping" along nicely. Such a figure highlights the point. It may not be Mark Neeld, but something has to change sooner rather than later. You will not be sustained with such a membership number and we have been below par for way too long. It is a business imperative that we let the footy world know, we're ready - finally - to take the steps we need to to get us out of the mire, in which we have wallowed for the last decade in particular.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

No it's not old chap, try asking a few questions and do a bit of research and you will find 'your wins' is not correct, besides which supporters are not walking away in droves, the membership is creeping along nicely, because people can see past the rubbish perpetuated by some journalists and regurgitated by some on here. It is only a 'select' band of so called supporters on here who want to see the Club fail so they justity to themselves that they were/are right, sad really

What's sad is your comment; no one that supports Melbourne wants the club to fail that's as stupid a comment I've ever seen on here.

The one thing that the posters desperately want is the club to succeed, wtf do you think we are here.

[hardtack 10,537]

What's sad is your comment; no one that supports Melbourne wants the club to fail that's as stupid a comment I've ever seen on here.

The one thing that the posters desperately want is the club to succeed, wtf do you think we are here.

Well, I do recall one poster on these forums saying that they hope Carlton thrash us by a very large margin (140 points?) so that Neeld would be sacked; so it could be correct to say that there are some on here who don't support the club in it's current form.

Of course, I assuming that AoB is using the word "fail" to describe our game day performance and not our viability as a club to continue to exist; and I'm pretty certain that was what he meant.

Edited May 6, 2013 by hardtack

[Bossdog 2,002]

I just can't believe the short sightedness of some posters here......We hired a coach to BUILD a side that will be sustainable finals side......This cannot be done in 1 year.....I realise that people want INSTANT success....but have no patience for this to occur.......People want a new coach...an instant messiah to cure all our woes.....and they want it NOW.....When Neeld was hired....He stated that it would take three years to get this footy club up to AFL standard....and people accepted this.....But as soon as the losses came they all just threw up their hands and said SACK the coach.....God I hate this thread....

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Well, I do recall one poster on these forums saying that they hope Carlton thrash us by a very large margin (140 points?) so that Neeld would be sacked; so it could be correct to say that there are some on here who don't support the club in it's current form.

Of course, I assuming that AoB is using the word "fail" to describe our game day performance and not our viability as a club to continue to exist; and I'm pretty certain that was what he meant.

There are all sorts of idiots on forums that say all sorts of stupid things.

I think he meant the club to fail, that's how it came across to me. Anyway I'm not the poster boy for Neeld getting the sack and I hope he does well; I just can't see it.

We are a shambles and those hanging on to a 10 goal thrashing, thinking it's not a bad effort, are delusional.

[jazza 1,323]

One other thing Bob the coach is like a sales manager and when sales go down it's is responsibility; it's his job to make sure his salesmen hit their targets each week/month and if they don't he has failed in his job. Neeld's salesmen can't hit their targets.

Ever run a business Bob; what would you do with the sales manager particularly if you found that it was causing the business to founder?

if the product is chit can you blame the sales manager for bad targets

it will be interesting to read you posts if they retain him for the term of his contract.

thats what good business people do, they see out contracts and have faith in them

[Dee Fan 3,247]

if the product is chit can you blame the sales manager for bad targets

it will be interesting to read you posts if they retain him for the term of his contract.

thats what good business people do, they see out contracts and have faith in them

If the Sales Manager chooses the product then can't sell it, it's his problem. The Board didn't pick the players, you know that, don't you?

If the management see the company going down the tubes they have to make decisions; ever have to make one of those? There have been many corporate casualties over the years where the incoming CEO has turned out to be a dud and rather than harm the company any more than they already have they terminate him.

How did you feel about Schwab being forced out, were you happy with that? And don't give me that [censored] about him resigning his position was untenable.

Edited May 7, 2013 by RobbieF

[jazza 1,323]

If the Sales Manager chooses the product then can't sell it, it's his problem. The Board didn't pick the players, you know that, don't you?

If the management see the company going down the tubes they have to make decisions; ever have to make one of those? There have been many corporate casualties over the years where the incoming CEO has turned out to be a dud and rather than harm the company any more than they already have they terminate him.

How did you feel about Schwab being forced out, were you happy with that? And don't give me that [censored] about him resigning his position was untenable.

no feelings about the ceo, why do you ask?

just dont understand peoples feelings about fd

mainly i think most hang onto chit arguments and dont know anything about how a football club works

maybe the club should go into sales business and then you can get on the board

Edited May 7, 2013 by jazza

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

The business analogy is the one I "subscribe" to. It is not a question of misappropriating blame for a dud product, it is about the market itself. If the market doesn't buy it, because it not only doesn't believe the product has any real value, but that it is basically flawed in the first place, then the market will turn away. If the sales manager - and I don't claim that role is the domain on Mark Neeld - can't reverse the perception of the market, then it's time to go.

[Dee1987 277]

We at least need to give Neeld until seasons end if we continue to get belted most weeks and no real obvious improvement occurs then we can/ will review our head coach. I believe Neeld needs much better assistants on the coaching panel. Remove Rawlings and Royal and hopefully gain some former champs of the game to develop our mids and defenders. Remember when Wellman had our defence Frawley, Garland and co had super seasons. Royal and Rawlings haven't done much since being on our coaching panel. Both we failures at st kilda and Richmond

[The Reverend 1,736]

Geelong had 9 players each of whom had played under 50 games on the weekend. They have several pushing for senior selection in their 2's. Yes, before you jump down my throat, I know the core of Geelong's list is as rock solid as any in the AFL. The point i make, is they never bottomed out and they have a culture which has never seen then with a losing average of over 10 goals.

And that's the whole point. We are trying to build a culture that will put us in that position. Yes things have been pitiful in the past and don't look much brighter now, but we need to go through this pain if we are ever going to be any good. Hopefully in ten years time, we will be able to hold our heads high and point to the strong culture of success that has been born from this excruciating period.

As an aside, I think the way the game is played now makes blowout losses for bottom sides a little more likely than in the past.