Gun Control

[H_T 2,941]

BTW, rather eerie coincidence that Martin Bryant lived in a suburb of Hobart called New Town.

Eww, that sent a shiver down the spine.

[daisycutter 28,578]

Innocent vunerable defenceless children.

Its make a complete lie of the right to defend yourself with a gun.

But that's not what some americans are saying rhino

They are saying more guns are needing in schools to defend the children

you and i can see the the fallacy and stubborn stupidity in this but it's what americans (strongest lobby of) think (if that 's the right word)

the response now of many is to go out and upgrade their guns to semi-automatic military style assault weapons (for self-defence of course)

I can't see obama having the cajones to do any more than talk which is his only strong point

[H_T 2,941]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/9749024/Americas-deadly-obsession-with-guns.html'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/9749024/Americas-deadly-obsession-with-guns.html

-Daily Telegraph

[mauriesy 6,811]

An article from the Washington Post cites a report from the Children's Defense Fund in the USA, which showed that in 2008 and 2009, 5740 children — “one child or teen every three hours, eight every day, 55 every week for two years” — were killed by guns. In 2008, 408 of them were under the age of 15; 148 were under 10. A year later, 354 under 15 and 151 under 10 were killed by gunfire. All in all, 34,387 children were wounded by guns in those two years.

That's total lunacy and Rhino is right about 'innocent vulnerable defenceless children' and the misdirected preference for guns over children's safety.

This article: More is done to protect guns than to protect children (originally from the Washington Post, re-produced in The Age on Sunday) hits the nail on the head. To quote:

"We live in a society (USA) that makes it very, very easy to kill kids, although we want to pretend that it isn't true. Because the kids gunned down in Sandy Hook Elementary School on Friday were swaddled in federally regulated, fire-retardant blankets, rode in elaborate car seats plastered with safety stickers, learned to ride bikes with elbow pads, knee guards and safety helmets and were never left alone with a plastic bag. Cribs, bouncy seats, cough medicine, scooters, sugary snacks — we have no problem regulating the everliving life out of those. But how do we keep them safe in their sweet, little elementary school when we live in a culture that has convinced itself to accept guns?"

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

But that's not what some americans are saying rhino

They are saying more guns are needing in schools to defend the children

you and i can see the the fallacy and stubborn stupidity in this but it's what americans (strongest lobby of) think (if that 's the right word)

the response now of many is to go out and upgrade their guns to semi-automatic military style assault weapons (for self-defence of course)

I can't see obama having the cajones to do any more than talk which is his only strong point

Some are but some arent.

The lie is there are some sections of the community will always be vulnerable and that guns wont solve anything. You and I know that. But some of our duelling banjo cousins wont.

Its not just a matter of Obama having the cajones its going to have to be the Congress/Senate and State legislatures that need them collectively. And this is where the NRA will divide and conquer.

I am pessimist that we will see more than words and soft legislation that means nothing.

[mauriesy 6,811]

I am pessimist that we will see more than words and soft legislation that means nothing.

Agreed. That article I quoted by Dvorak in the Washington Post finished with this:

"But America already knows how this is going to go. We are getting scary good at this. There will be school counsellors and vigils and maybe some protests.

We will all hug our kids extra hard. I don't know if I'm going to be able to let my kindergartner and third-grader go to their sleepover this weekend, I won't be able to let them go.

There will be great work done by reporters in the next few weeks uncovering how the shooter was able to get his hands on the weapons. We'll probably learn that he was mentally ill, that there were holes in the safety net and everyone around him saw the signs, but our treatment of mental health issues is lacking, our care incomplete and our system broken.

Schools will re-examine safety procedures. It's going to be even harder for the babysitter to come to pick up a child or for mum to drop off a forgotten lunch because of new ID checks and security guards hired by the school district. And somehow, parents are going to agree to this madness because, what else can you do? The drills for surviving during a school shooting will now begin in kindergarten. Pre-school board meetings will discuss whether this should be looked into. Board members will nod sagely. What else can you do?

Sandy Hook will become a database entry, next to Columbine and Stockton and Virginia Tech.

What's not going to happen? Nothing will change when it comes to guns in America."

[H_T 2,941]

This article: More is done to protect guns than to protect children (originally from the Washington Post, re-produced in The Age on Sunday) hits the nail on the head. To quote:

"We live in a society (USA) that makes it very, very easy to kill kids, although we want to pretend that it isn't true. Because the kids gunned down in Sandy Hook Elementary School on Friday were swaddled in federally regulated, fire-retardant blankets, rode in elaborate car seats plastered with safety stickers, learned to ride bikes with elbow pads, knee guards and safety helmets and were never left alone with a plastic bag. Cribs, bouncy seats, cough medicine, scooters, sugary snacks we have no problem regulating the everliving life out of those. But how do we keep them safe in their sweet, little elementary school when we live in a culture that has convinced itself to accept guns?"

Certainly hits the nail on the head, alright...that's what I meant by gun embedded culture...

In the article I posted above, every year in America 17,000 people are killed. 70% (~11,900) are killed by guns. 70%...

[daisycutter 28,578]

Some are but some arent.

The lie is there are some sections of the community will always be vulnerable and that guns wont solve anything. You and I know that. But some of our duelling banjo cousins wont.

Its not just a matter of Obama having the cajones its going to have to be the Congress/Senate and State legislatures that need them collectively. And this is where the NRA will divide and conquer.

I am pessimist that we will see more than words and soft legislation that means nothing.

so, we use different words but we agree

[Biffen 12,342]

All they need is some good moderators, eh biffo?

I've noticed that American language has become more and more aggressive and perhaps demanding over the years .

Phrases like "you need to stop that".

"Dont be doing that"

"sit your ass down" etc.

They are a society of dangerous ,paranoid freaks getting worse by the day .

I will need more time to give you my complete diatribe on the land of hope and glory .

Moderates get silenced over there by tough talkers and "action' men .

I'm happy to be an Ozzie.

[mjt 640]

mjt - Respectfully, you are missing the point.

We all know that those that want guns will always be able to get them but the restrictions we have lessen the ability of the mentally unstable and the temporarily unstable (domestic violence, etc) from easily obtaining guns. It also means that with a few smart restrictions, Obama can do something to keep less destructive guns, with shorter magazines, in the hands of those that are able to get around the waiting periods (which don't apply in private sales, and gun shows.

If Obama can make it illegal for anyone other than rural land owners, and certified hunting club members from having anything other than handguns he has done a great job and they will see theses events disappear and be much smaller in scale.

The US will be overrun by the Zombie apocolypse in 2453 before they give up their handguns...

i understand, were your coming from rpfc, the problem the Obama administration has is they can try and confiscate peoples weapons but the Mexican Cartels will flood them across the border quicker than they can confiscate them, once again we have a situation were people who do the rite thing getting screwed, to do that to Kids or anyone for that matter is a putrid act, but its the persons fault not the gun.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

so, we use different words but we agree

We do?? And we do

i understand, were your coming from rpfc, the problem the Obama administration has is they can try and confiscate peoples weapons but the Mexican Cartels will flood them across the border quicker than they can confiscate them, once again we have a situation were people who do the rite thing getting screwed, to do that to Kids or anyone for that matter is a putrid act, but its the persons fault not the gun.

Its a bigger issue than Obama and the problem extends well before his time.

Obama. Congress. Senate can legislate on legalised guns but FMD the illegal guns flooding across the border and are also in the country are another story

[dee-luded 2,958]

You cant take away an Americans guns .

These shootings happen so regularly now that they may have to think about changing their constitution .

Even then-where would America be without weaponry and wars?

Possibly as well off as they were, comparative, to where they were in the mid thirties.

They seemed a lot more content before 'Pearl Harbour', & since have a bit of an attitude?

Violence begets Violence.

[old55 21,356]

Texan Republican congressman Louie Gohmert

"I wish to God she [slain school principal Dawn Hochsprung] had had an M-4 [assault rifle] in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out … and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids."

Half a Country is in denial.

"the right to keep and bear arms" applied to 19th century America, we're in the 21st century now, time to get with the times. After reading the various articles effectively its the NRA that run the country, being silent financial donors to various political parties and congressmen and women. They're the ones that have blood on their hands.

Thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of the victims.

Right, not enough guns - that's the problem. If those kids all had guns then the shooter would have been cut down in a hail of fire - in fact he probably wouldn't have tried it on in the first place. Every US child should be issued with a gun at birth, preferably semi-automatic because they might not be too good at aiming. There'd be a whole new market for semi-automatics that can be managed by toddlers - think of the job creation!

[rpfc 27,498]

I can't see obama having the cajones to do any more than talk which is his only strong point

Oh, DC, I have already mentioned his accomplishments in another thread so I won't repeat myself but the guy is more than just talk. Constantly talking down where he has got that country after the unmititgated disaster of the Bush years is disengenuous its bordering on mischievousness.

What he has done on guns is nothing. Which in-and-of itself is damning and shameful. It is a calculated move that he should just throw away now that he doesn't have to run for office ever again. He can get some piecemeal stuff done:

Assualt weapons ban. Enhanced screening and waiting periods. Beefing up of psychiatric centres. Only certified gun club members can purchase guns (this means that regular gun users have to join and maintain membership and tabs can be kept on gun use). Banning of non-certified sales at gun shows (this means only people that are members of gun clubs can buy at gun shows). Banning of peer-to-peer sales without a certified third party (local gun clubs are aware of the sale of guns between members). And the most difficult overhaul - a compulsory buy back of all 'assault' weapons, incl. semi-automatic guns and extended magazines.

Edited December 19, 2012 by rpfc

[daisycutter 28,578]

Oh, DC, I have already mentioned his accomplishments in another thread so I won't repeat myself but the guy is more than just talk. Constantly talking down where he has got that country after the unmititgated disaster of the Bush years is disengenuous its bordering on mischievousness.

What he has done on guns is nothing. Which in-and-of itself is damning and shameful. It is a calculated move that he should just throw away now that he doesn't have to run for office ever again. He can get some piecemeal stuff done:

Assualt weapons ban. Enhanced screening and waiting periods. Beefing up of psychiatric centres. Only certified gun club members can purchase guns (this means that regular gun users have to join and maintain membership and tabs can be kept on gun use). Banning of non-certified sales at gun shows (this means only people that are members of gun clubs can buy at gun shows). Banning of peer-to-peer sales without a certified third party (local gun clubs are aware of the sale of guns between members). And the most difficult overhaul - a compulsory buy back of all 'assault' weapons, incl. semi-automatic guns and extended magazines.

I still maintain that apart from obamacare he is all flowery oratory and no action

He may be mr nice-guy but he's no shaker and maker

Re gun control. I expect there will be some fringe type changes (that will get watered down) but nothing that makes any real difference

YMMV

[Biffen 12,342]

I still maintain that apart from obamacare he is all flowery oratory and no action

He may be mr nice-guy but he's no shaker and maker

Re gun control. I expect there will be some fringe type changes (that will get watered down) but nothing that makes any real difference

YMMV

Typically racist comment from you DC.

You need to go shoot some sh!t ,drink some beers and let off a little steam .

Meet you in the city and we'll go from there.

[daisycutter 28,578]

Typically racist comment from you DC.

You need to go shoot some sh!t ,drink some beers and let off a little steam .

Meet you in the city and we'll go from there.

Won't have time Biffo, my apocalypse bunker beckons

[rpfc 27,498]

I still maintain that apart from obamacare he is all flowery oratory and no action

He may be mr nice-guy but he's no shaker and maker

Re gun control. I expect there will be some fringe type changes (that will get watered down) but nothing that makes any real difference

YMMV

I don't know how closely you follow the US politics but the Administration, over the past 4 years, continued to shore up US banks (although not holding anyone accountable), restructure and reenergise the US Auto Industry, kept the recession from becoming a depression with some clever stimulative moves (keeping unemp to 10% max and bringing it down to 7.8% today).

They also passed historic healthcare reform in an environment where the people that thought up the basic tenets of the law a decade ago (incl. the Conservaticve Heritage Foundation) railed against it - the ultimate sign that the leader of the Republicans in the Senate was not bluffing when he said that the "single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president."

With all this stacked against him he has managed to stabilise the economy and save important industries, passed new financial regulations, ended the wars (if Afghanistan can ever be considered 'over'), kicked the banks out of student loans (eliminated the gouging middle man), increased funding for Vets programs, flipped on some diabolical leaders in the mid east, and repealed a law that said that service men and women could be who they were but would be sacked if anyone found out.

And he also managed a signature achievement of healthcare reform that have plagued and doomed Presidents for decades.

By historical standards Obama is running in the second tier of Presidents, by relative standards, compared to his predecessor, he is Lincoln...

[daisycutter 28,578]

I don't know how closely you follow the US politics but the Administration, over the past 4 years, continued to shore up US banks (although not holding anyone accountable), restructure and reenergise the US Auto Industry, kept the recession from becoming a depression with some clever stimulative moves (keeping unemp to 10% max and bringing it down to 7.8% today).

They also passed historic healthcare reform in an environment where the people that thought up the basic tenets of the law a decade ago (incl. the Conservaticve Heritage Foundation) railed against it - the ultimate sign that the leader of the Republicans in the Senate was not bluffing when he said that the "single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president."

With all this stacked against him he has managed to stabilise the economy and save important industries, passed new financial regulations, ended the wars (if Afghanistan can ever be considered 'over'), kicked the banks out of student loans (eliminated the gouging middle man), increased funding for Vets programs, flipped on some diabolical leaders in the mid east, and repealed a law that said that service men and women could be who they were but would be sacked if anyone found out.

And he also managed a signature achievement of healthcare reform that have plagued and doomed Presidents for decades.

By historical standards Obama is running in the second tier of Presidents, by relative standards, compared to his predecessor, he is Lincoln...

boy, much obama-love there rpfc

we obviously disagree here.

the promised great reformer will go down in presidential history as a lame president who couldn't garner the power required for meaningful reform and will leave an america in a worse position than when he took the reins

Sadly it'd hard to see anyone else in the wings at the moment who offers any great hope

[rpfc 27,498]

boy, much obama-love there rpfc

we obviously disagree here.

the promised great reformer will go down in presidential history as a lame president who couldn't garner the power required for meaningful reform and will leave an america in a worse position than when he took the reins

Sadly it'd hard to see anyone else in the wings at the moment who offers any great hope

You think I give too much credit, and I think you give far too little.

You intimated he is an empty suit. He isn't. He was very much enamoured with the idea that he should not be a one-term President but what President doesn't want that.

Please don't wave away my admiration for what he has done as some sort of blind love for a politician. Because he is just that. I was never expecting what some were expecting.

I was hoping for a return to real politik in world affairs similar to George HW Bush and I got that. Americans have got more fairness in Service, out of wars, out of the woods in Detroit, out of a near depression, more affordable and attainable and fairer healthcare, and got a President who actually cared where Osama was.

I really don't know what naive dream some were expecting.

The inability to magically unite Washington and push through historic, bipartisan bills on anything were a pipedream that Republicans would never have entertained. They don't have a Parliamentary system, they have a disjointed Congress with far too much say in the hands of a few crazies.

He has done well with no help from the other half of the elected officials that were sent to serve their country and simply worked to serve their own desire for power.

Edited December 19, 2012 by rpfc

[hardtack 10,127]

i understand, were your coming from rpfc, the problem the Obama administration has is they can try and confiscate peoples weapons but the Mexican Cartels will flood them across the border quicker than they can confiscate them, once again we have a situation were people who do the rite thing getting screwed, to do that to Kids or anyone for that matter is a putrid act, but its the persons fault not the gun.

Removing easy access to guns reduces the likelihood of these events occurring. Since the PA massacre, there have been zero (yes, count them...zero) mass killings in Australia (in the decade prior to PA there had been something like 6 or 8). In the US since the Columbine spree, there have been a further 16 or 18 such mass killings - guess which country enacted tougher gun laws?

A perfect example of the limitations on access to guns/semi auto weapons, was played out on the same day as this latest event took place in the US... in China where access to guns is very very strictly controlled, a nutjob attacked 22 primary school children with a knife... no one was killed and no one was seriously wounded.

The other thing that was brought to my attention and that I think speaks volumes for the double standards that exist in this debate... Kinda Surprise are banned from import and sale in the US because they present a choking hazard for small children... guns however...

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

I read an article the other day that said that the largest seller of guns in the US is Wallmart.

[censored] WALLMART.

Think about that for a second.

The place that sells the most guns is the place where you take your family to go grocery shopping and fill up your car with petrol. Guns are sold by untrained minimum wage workers who only man gun sales part time. Guns are not stored securely, because it's [censored] WALLMART.

Hardtrack is right - removing easy access to guns is the first step. It's too easy to just go to the local Wallmart and swipe a gun when the teller isn't looking. It's just shoplifting. No one should have access to guns in such a stupidly easy way. It's not like Wallmart recruits gun experts to man their gun counters like a professional gun shop would. Minimum wage workers are unlikely to give a crap if the counter is unsupervised and don't have the knowledge to be selling them in the first place.

Below is a link to a blog dedicated entirely to Wallmart Shootings. Shootings where people go into Wallmark, either buy or steal a gun, and immediately start shooting.

http://walmartshootings.blogspot.com.au/

That blog makes me physically ill.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

Oh I forgot, I wanted to tell this story.

A few years ago I was speaking with a friend who lives in the US about guns and things. I was shocked to find out that he owned 2 assault rifles and an automatic handgun.

I asked him what possible use he could have for such an arsenal.

He looked me in the eye and said "Because if Bob from next door ever comes over here with his bulldozer and tries to destroy my house, I can take him out." He was completely serious. He legitimately thought that his neighbour might destroy his house with a bulldozer, and his solution was being ready to kill him for it.

After a lot more disturbing conversation, he and I came to this conclusion:

When an American looks at a gun, he sees safety and security. When an Australian looks at a gun, he sees danger.

I later showed him the stats on gun deaths in Australia following the legislative changes in 1996. He was astounded and had trouble believing what I was showing him. His media tells him that our gun laws just shouldn't work. The reduction in gun deaths due to our gun control laws just don't make sense to an American who owns a gun. After all, if a gun makes you safer, how could it be possible that a country that destroyed thousands of them would be safer following it?

[dee-luded 2,958]

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

We are from good honest convict stock, humble beginnings where people don't naturally get too far ahead of themselves. Humility & empathy aren't too far apart.

Now lets see, frontiersman, yeah, a hunter who wants too exploit all for his own good. He'll kill any danger standing before him with his trusty advantage.... courage? some.

Humility, not much, empathy not really.

Cultures, very different.

[rpfc 27,498]

BS.

They had a revolution with the gun in 1776 and a bloody Civil War 150 years ago, but they are still THE developed democracy and they are not more violent than us - they just have far too easy access to weapons.

The bloody standoff over there is a kid with 3 automatics, over here it is a kid with a knife.

Blaming 'culture' is a cop out.