I can't believe people rate Spencer. Sure he improved last year but he will never be more than VFL standard

We have respect. Which is why many of us think he can get us a mid this week in a trade.

Martin undersized as a 1st ruck and terrible as a 2nd ruck as he is useless in the forward line and that is where 2nd rucks spend their time.

Jamar is our number 1 ruck with Spencer and Gawn his heirs. Pedersen is seen as a good forward who can help Clark with 2nd Rick duties.

Martin is expendable and has value. That mathematical equation leads to 'trade bait'.

They'll be delisted then to make room.

Martin is valued by some on D'land and you know that.

For me, Stef is in excess of needs and if we keep selling his 2011 form to some teams, it'll work out well for us.

I understand you. Fair enough, there is some respect.

However: Though small for a 1st ruck, Martin (almost 26) is fast and the same height and weight as the "big Russian" (29) who's slow and slowing, just tapping to his feet and averaging less marks and kicks, in spite of Martins injured year, plus the anti-wrestling should hurt Mark. (Martin's also 2cm shorter and 4kg heavier than Clark)

Our difference seems more subtle and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking Martin will 1st ruck better than Jamar from now on, so trade the respected Jamar now while he's some value and trade Martin in 2-3 years after he's gained value and our others are ready. I think it's sensible, but I live o/s and only saw video this year so maybe you know something I don't?

..and presumably signing Jamar for 3 years allows us more when trading than if he was an unrestricted free agent.

I understand you. Fair enough, there is some respect.

However: Though small for a 1st ruck, Martin (almost 26) is fast and the same height and weight as the "big Russian" (29) who's slow and slowing, just tapping to his feet and averaging less marks and kicks, in spite of Martins injured year, plus the anti-wrestling should hurt Mark. (Martin's also 2cm shorter and 4kg heavier than Clark)

Our difference seems more subtle and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking Martin will 1st ruck better than Jamar from now on, so trade the respected Jamar now while he's some value and trade Martin in 2-3 years after he's gained value and our others are ready. I think it's sensible, but I live o/s and only saw video this year so maybe you know something I don't?

..and presumably signing Jamar for 3 years allows us more when trading than if he was an unrestricted free agent.

Jamar is a better ruckman. He was injured this year.

When i started reading reports about the Dee's taking a "moneyball" approach to the trdae/FA period i was sceptical - thought it was more of a media beat up based on a interesting concept and a decent movie. But if we get Ray, Pederson, Byrnes, Dawes etc then the look of our team will be drastically different in 2013, and the moneyball comparisons wont be too far off.

Jamar is a better ruckman. He was injured this year.

Jamar is better at stoppages. Spends most of the rest of the game where the ball ain't.

And seems to be spending an increasing amount of the season injured.

I understand that Martin's probably gone, and I understand why, but I'm not convinced it's the right decision. I guess the only way to work it out will be by the comparative performances of Jamar & Martin over the next 2 years.

No doubt that Martin could play good footy elsewhere, but he is surplus to our needs, and you cant trade away trash for treasure.

Matin & Pederson are probably of a similar value, but seeing as we have Gawn, Spencer and Fitzy on the list, Pederson is more to our needs than martin

Coming down to the wire with only 48 hours left. What are we thinking it will take to get Pedersen & Ray over the line?

Martin & Pick 63 to Lions

Pick 33 to St Kilda

Ray & Pick 47 to Melbourne

Pick 47 to North

Pedersen to Melbourne & if they don't like it they can shove it!

No doubt that Martin could play good footy elsewhere, but he is surplus to our needs, and you cant trade away trash for treasure.

Matin & Pederson are probably of a similar value, but seeing as we have Gawn, Spencer and Fitzy on the list, Pederson is more to our needs than martin

Gawn worries me on a fitness front

2 serious knee reco's before you are 21!

Does not look like someone who is going to give the Dees 150 games from where I sit in the outer.

Coming down to the wire with only 48 hours left. What are we thinking it will take to get Pedersen & Ray over the line?

Martin & Pick 63 to Lions

Pick 33 to St Kilda

Ray & Pick 47 to Melbourne

Pick 47 to North

Pedersen to Melbourne & if they don't like it they can shove it!

Haha. You'd be good at the trade table TD...Cale Morton anyone?

Coming down to the wire with only 48 hours left. What are we thinking it will take to get Pedersen & Ray over the line?

Martin & Pick 63 to Lions

Pick 33 to St Kilda

Ray & Pick 47 to Melbourne

Pick 47 to North

Pedersen to Melbourne & if they don't like it they can shove it!

That is exactly how I see it. Getting the Martin part done is the hard bit.

If that happened, we would get Ray and Pedersen for Martin and a pick we wouldn't have used anyway.

Gys to Bummers for 2nd round pick used for Pedersen, Martin to the Lions for 2nd round pick used for Ray.

Gys to Bummers for 2nd round pick used for Pedersen, Martin to the Lions for 2nd round pick used for Ray.

We've already paid far too high a price for Dawes, no way we should repeat the mistake with Pedersen.

We've already paid far too high a price for Dawes, no way we should repeat the mistake with Pedersen.

In your opinion they have, but I don't think they have, we will all have to wait and see won't we

We've already paid far too high a price for Dawes, no way we should repeat the mistake with Pedersen.

Unless u want us to be on the bottom of the ladder again next year ralphiusmaximus. What have our shitloads of high draft picks done for us? Not much. Well done so far Neeldy.

Unless u want us to be on the bottom of the ladder again next year ralphiusmaximus. What have our shitloads of high draft picks done for us? Not much. Well done so far Neeldy.

I agree with what Neeld is doing, I just don't like how much he's been willing to pay to do it. Now, having paid so much for Dawes, North are asking us to pay more for Pedersen than they got for McIntosh, despite the fact that Pedersen can't get a game with them. We've set a precedent of paying overs for players we want and other clubs are looking to cash in. I say offer them a third round pick and if they won't take it walk away.

What are your thoughts about trading P4 to GWS for their P12, P14 and Jed Anderson? Would they go for it? Would we?

I think after the consensus top 3 you could throw a blanket over the next 10. Therefore I am confident that we could still get some top talent with those picks.

I agree with what Neeld is doing, I just don't like how much he's been willing to pay to do it. Now, having paid so much for Dawes, North are asking us to pay more for Pedersen than they got for McIntosh, despite the fact that Pedersen can't get a game with them. We've set a precedent of paying overs for players we want and other clubs are looking to cash in. I say offer them a third round pick and if they won't take it walk away.

When a bloke you want is contracted Ralph you unfortunately do not hold the whip hand.

Dawes had two years to run on his contract. He wanted out but Collingwood didn't have to let him go (just like Ryan O'Keefe a few years ago). See also Brown at West Coast...

So you have to give something to get something.

Many people (i don't know if you were one of them) said Pick 12 for Mitch Clark was way overs and silly by Melbourne. After 10 rounds this year they were eating their words...

Brisbane used Pick 12 on Sam Docherty who is yet to play a game. Sam may become a very good player but Clark was exactly what we needed.

Dawes filled a desperate need and is still young enough to have a long term impact at the club, coming through with the young leaders.

Pick 20 may net a very good player, but it may not. Dawes fills the need we have now but it is still a long term decision.

You talk about it being "overs" without there being any chance to see a result as yet. How can you possibly declare it as overs without a result?

People say Sydney paid overs for Mumford- I'd back it in that Sydney disagree given the results achieved and the key hand Mumford has played.

Back on the topic of Pederson. He is in a similar situation at North in regards to being contracted. North hold the whip hand in terms of letting him go or not. It depends on how badly we want him and how badly North want to get rid of him. You cannot know though if the price is overs until the deal is done and games are played.

Surely, through his actions to date, Neeld has earnt the trust that he and his recruiting department know exactly what "value" Pederson holds and what they will be willing to pay. If it is pick 49 then so be it. If it is 33 then so be it. They have earnt that trust.

But that is the hardest thing for many supporters to acknowledge.

What are your thoughts about trading P4 to GWS for their P12, P14 and Jed Anderson? Would they go for it? Would we?

I think after the consensus top 3 you could throw a blanket over the next 10. Therefore I am confident that we could still get some top talent with those picks.

Not a chance.

Jamar is a better ruckman. He was injured this year.

And the year before.

Jamar gets his hand to the ball in the ruck more than Martin. Take away his wrestle-ability with the new rule and you take away his strength. For the rest of the match, he does SFA.

As I've said in another thread, we have many rucks, and not much to show for it ATM.

Given this is a trade thread, I ask which has the greater trade value? Jamar.

Many people (i don't know if you were one of them) said Pick 12 for Mitch Clark was way overs and silly by Melbourne. After 10 rounds this year they were eating their words..

I was one. Didn't rate Clark at all, and was only happy because we'd convinced someone - anyone - to come to the club. I was chowing down on humble pie much, much earlier than round 10 too.

If Neeld and co think a player is a good fit for us, and reckon that paying x pick for them is value, then I'm supporting it. They have a plan (heh. a real one. it's been a while fellas. it's been a long while) and they have the drive to carry it out. Maybe it'll work and maybe it won't but at least we won't die wondering, and that's good enough for me because right now trying and failing is much preferable to watching the world go by while we wait for a miracle..

And the year before.

Jamar gets his hand to the ball in the ruck more than Martin. Take away his wrestle-ability with the new rule and you take away his strength. For the rest of the match, he does SFA.

As I've said in another thread, we have many rucks, and not much to show for it ATM.

Given this is a trade thread, I ask which has the greater trade value? Jamar.

Again, you are reading too much into this new rule without seeing how it is implemented.

Happy to pay whatever it takes now to get Pedersen and Ray over the line. I'm assuming that our only live picks in the draft will be Pick 4, 27 (Viney), 106 (Nicholson) and 124 (Magner) therefore picks 49 to 80 are effectively worth nothing to us.

Martin and Pick 49 to Brisbane for Pick 33

Morton and Pick 63 to West Coast for Pick 41

Pick 41 to North for Pedersen

Pick 33 to Saints for Ray (or a slider in the draft)

The wash-up, Martin and Morton for Pedersen and Ray. I'm calling that a win. Come on Harrington, get it done!

And all this trading and drafting without our prized new recruiting guy - Jason Taylor - setting a foot in the door. Pretty gutsy effort.

Again, you are reading too much into this new rule without seeing how it is implemented.

Again, you missed my point. Our ruck stocks are many but thin, and Jamar has trade value.

Again, you missed my point. Our ruck stocks are many but thin, and Jamar has trade value.

[same sentence with Martin instead of Jamar.]

I know Jamar can be a very good ruckman for an entire year and dominate other rucks in the centre.

I cannot say the same for Martin.