Toumpas v Stringer v Wines

[olisik 4,060]

If Neeld goes and trades our draft picks away in a super draft to get some B grade mids that work hard I will have an absolute fit. It would be a repeat of the decade that followed 2001.

We need to learn to draft and develop our own stars. Not a quick fix to bump us half way up the ladder.

[Hannibal 5,814]

If Neeld goes and trades our draft picks away in a super draft to get some B grade mids that work hard I will have an absolute fit. It would be a repeat of the decade that followed 2001.

We need to learn to draft and develop our own stars. Not a quick fix to bump us half way up the ladder.

It would seriously be the end for me.

Unlike most here my love for this club isn't unconditional.

[Guest KingDingAling]

It would seriously be the end for me.

Unlike most here my love for this club isn't unconditional.

I would find myself barracking for the club, even if I didn't want to, there is no other option.

But I often get frustrated with the club to the point of abandoning them,

I have for 30 years, but I can never leave the Dees.

I liken them to the missus, I stay with her hoping she'll oneday put out.

[jurrahcane 70]

My dream draft

Toumpas

Grundy

Garlett

Viney

agree... smiles x4 if this was the case.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I liken them to the missus, I stay with her hoping she'll oneday put out.

I laughed, but held my position.

Then laughed again.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Viney and Wines played together up in the Echuca area when they were kids and Wines speaks in awe of Viney. I don't think I've seen or heard one expert put Wines ahead of Viney and usually I read that Viney is the best inside mid in the draft. In fact, I've read widely and haven't yet read where he isn't. I'm not sure why you have a different take. Also, Viney's speed is very good, especilally breaking away from a stoppage. His kicking isn't elite in it's penetration, but he hits targets with regularity and is far better than Scully.

I think the general consensus is that Viney would slot somewhere into the 5-15 range, so I completely understand why some supporters wouldn't want to give up pick 3, but for the leadership and culture he'd bring and the class he'd give as an inside mid I would - even though I don't think we'll have to. Within 12 months he'd be our best inside mid and give us quality clearances.

But this leads me to another point. Who are presently the best players at most of the better clubs ? At Essendon it's an inside mid in Watson. At Collingwood it's Swan and Pendlebury, both start in the centre square and are inside mids. At Hawthorn it's Franklin, Rioli, Hodge and Mitchell. Mitchell and Sewell are arguably their most important players at the moment, as they're the engine room that gets them going. Both are inside mids and Mitchell is expected to poll well in the Brownlow. The Swans best players along with Goodes are their inside mids in Jack, Kennedy, McVeigh and Bolton. At Carlton it's Judd and Murphy. Both inside mids with the latter having developed it in more recent times. At the Saints it's Reiwoldt and Hayes, the latter a terrific inside mid. Adelaides best player is their best inside mid in Scotty Thompson. The Dogs aren't a top team, but their best player is their best inside mid in Boyd. Richmond's best player is their best inside mid in Cotchin. Do you see a pattern emerging as to some of the most valuable players in the league ? It seems to be quality key forwards, or A grade inside mids.

Conclusion ? I agree that we're desperate for pace. I agree that we're desperate for outside class. But I also know that we're desperate for an A grade inside mid. I think too many are dismissing the value of inside mids and the value of the best inside mid in this draft. And it's not like they grow on trees. There are plenty of inside mids at our club and every club, but there's not many that are A grade.

Players like Redden, Beams, Fyfe, Sidebottom, Shuey, Hannebery, etc weren't drafted in the top 10 in their respective years, but where would they go with the benefit of hindsight ?

As I've been saying all along, with this draft I believe that the bottom sides, Giants/Suns/Demons/Power,,,, aren't really competitive with the rest of the comp.

I see it as an emergency for the 3 bottom clubs to get the pieces in place to rectify this.

Thats why I've been saying for the last @ least 3 weeks, that I would, If I was at the Suns, get a tough inside extractor. Possibly letting Whitfield slide, & Grundy as they have good Rucks. ( This I said when the Suns were on the bottom.)

Now it's the Giants down the bottom, & I think they'll pass on Grundy, thinking they'd also take a hard in/under type. My thinking was Wines, but the media is suggesting they'll take Whitfield. (I'm not so familiar with the kids that the Giants pickedUp last year, other that the tall forwards).

Now I see in the last day or so,,, Knightmare has changed his lineup in his Mock Draft, & it's now inline with My thinking. Re the Suns at least. And the Giants, we'll see?

--------------------------------------------------------

# Us. IMO we lack Inside players with the Class to step thru traffic, Carry the ball & Deliver lace out. This player is a must with our First pick.

You mentioned Viney. I see Viney as a tough bullocking In/under. He's got run & work-ethic but I've not read anywhere where they say he's elite with his kicking, decision making, or even speed. But rather he's well liked & respected as an Elite alrounder, tough & hardworking.

And it sounds like this is why he's touted as a top 10 player, not for speed & disposal skills or mental creativity. But for his hardness & tenacity.

We need Inside Mids who can run the ball & finish the work with Class, First.

I Want Viney! But not for our first Pick.

[Guest José Mourinho]

If Neeld goes and trades our draft picks away in a super draft to get some B grade mids that work hard I will have an absolute fit. It would be a repeat of the decade that followed 2001.

We need to learn to draft and develop our own stars. Not a quick fix to bump us half way up the ladder.

I thought you were a moneyball fan..?

You want a real "moneyball" player? Brock McLean.

FFS, Neeld's not going to do this.

He's not stupid.

[olisik 4,060]

I thought you were a moneyball fan..?

You want a real "moneyball" player? Brock McLean.

FFS, Neeld's not going to do this.

He's not stupid.

I doubt Brock will be a moneyball player. His manager knows he is in form and will try to make any club pay overs for him now.

Carlton would something similair in return to what they paid for him, so our pick 13

[Hannibal 5,814]

You mentioned Viney. I see Viney as a tough bullocking In/under. He's got run & work-ethic but I've not read anywhere where they say he's elite with his kicking, decision making, or even speed. But rather he's well liked & respected as an Elite alrounder, tough & hardworking.

And it sounds like this is why he's touted as a top 10 player, not for speed & disposal skills or mental creativity. But for his hardness & tenacity.

So you're making determinations on a player you've never seen play?

You say he's not touted for his speed, disposal skills, or creativity. It's worth reiterating the views of someone who has seen him literally heaps of times.

From Knightmare: Jack has very clean hands and uses it well by hand consistently. Big time accumulator. Kicking is generally very good and can find his targets over short and medium range (but not elite penetration). Speed is good and can break away from packs, also athletically I like his agility and side step, has some evasiveness and can burst off in another direction at pace.

This is my favourite part: purely and simply he is the hardest player I’ve seen coming through the system and his attack on the ball, attack on the man and aggression on the field is without equal...

I know you know about the last bit, but I think you really sell him short when you question his pace and decision making, especially when you have either not seen him play, or at most very little.

[dee-luded 2,958]

So you're making determinations on a player you've never seen play?

You say he's not touted for his speed, disposal skills, or creativity. It's worth reiterating the views of someone who has seen him literally heaps of times.

From Knightmare: Jack has very clean hands and uses it well by hand consistently. Big time accumulator. Kicking is generally very good and can find his targets over short and medium range (but not elite penetration). Speed is good and can break away from packs, also athletically I like his agility and side step, has some evasiveness and can burst off in another direction at pace.

This is my favourite part: purely and simply he is the hardest player I’ve seen coming through the system and his attack on the ball, attack on the man and aggression on the field is without equal...

I know you know about the last bit, but I think you really sell him short when you question his pace and decision making, especially when you have either not seen him play, or at most very little.

Not selling him short at all B-H... he doesn't have the speed that we talk of re Toumpas. see Knightmare re Toumpas.

Viney is rated a nice kick, good hands in close, side step, tough as, in U-18's. not particularly big. isn't what we need breaking away from the packs or on the outside.

This is exactly why I don't want to use our top 2 picks for him. And rate him around 10... He doesn't have that extra polish required for top 5. I'd gladly pay our Mid 1st Rnd Pick If I had to. It's closer to his value.

We need to find a Mark Murphy type.

To me our Pick 3 & 4 should be used on players with great X factor.

Whitfield with his gut run & Elite kicking from both feet + decision making says it.

Toumpas with his kicking, burst away speed & hurt factor says it.

Grundy with his vigor & attack at the contest with power marking says it. (not so much needs based) But*.

Stringer with his shown agressive play over a couple of TAC seasons, whether as a tall forward kicking goals or in the Middle racking up hard ball gets says it.

Possibly Mayes, with his Speed & elite kicking whether forward or thru the middle, + his height & solid marking IMO says it.

Possibly Plowman, but not so much needs based.

After that I have a Group I like after that group which are IMO all A grade, like Wines, Viney, Kennedy, O’Rourke, etc... then onto Rnd 2.

You keep coming up with the quotes hardest player I've seen, in the U-18's. Great. Kreuzer was the best ruck seen in the U-18's. great. NiKNat's going to be superman. Great...

When they come up into the AFL against the Pro's, they have to have something extra, as an advantage. Height + speed, or Elite Kicking, or speed of Mind, something extraordinary.

Otherwise they'll end up blending into the norm.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Not selling him short at all B-H... he doesn't have the speed that we talk of re Toumpas. see Knightmare re Toumpas.

Viney is rated a nice kick, good hands in close, side step, tough as, in U-18's. not particularly big. isn't what we need breaking away from the packs or on the outside.

This is exactly why I don't want to use our top 2 picks for him. And rate him around 10... He doesn't have that extra polish required for top 5. I'd gladly pay our Mid 1st Rnd Pick If I had to. It's closer to his value.

We need to find a Mark Murphy type.

To me our Pick 3 & 4 should be used on players with great X factor.

Whitfield with his gut run & Elite kicking from both feet + decision making says it.

Toumpas with his kicking, burst away speed & hurt factor says it.

Grundy with his vigor & attack at the contest with power marking says it. (not so much needs based) But*.

Stringer with his shown agressive play over a couple of TAC seasons, whether as a tall forward kicking goals or in the Middle racking up hard ball gets says it.

Possibly Mayes, with his Speed & elite kicking whether forward or thru the middle, + his height & solid marking IMO says it.

Possibly Plowman, but not so much needs based.

After that I have a Group I like after that group which are IMO all A grade, like Wines, Viney, Kennedy, O’Rourke, etc... then onto Rnd 2.

You keep coming up with the quotes hardest player I've seen, in the U-18's. Great. Kreuzer was the best ruck seen in the U-18's. great. NiKNat's going to be superman. Great...

When they come up into the AFL against the Pro's, they have to have something extra, as an advantage. Height + speed, or Elite Kicking, or speed of Mind, something extraordinary.

Otherwise they'll end up blending into the norm.

That's great. Answer the question. Hand on your heart - have you seen him play ?

[Jordie_tackles 354]

That's great. Answer the question. Hand on your heart - have you seen him play ?

I have but havnt seen Mayes Grundy or Toumpas play which is the thing, i dont think Deeluded is all that wrong he talks alot of truth, Stringer is considered because of previous form weather the punt is taken is another question. And Mayes seems to be coming back into it and doesnt get all the recognition prior to the champs being a WA boy imo. Also the game i saw in the Champs had Wines close to BoG by most people who saw.

[Dee-licious 1,867]

I went down to the championships, watched a lot of youtube and talked to a lot of vfl recruiters (I don't know any afl ones). Viney is top 5 in this draft in most people's opinion. He's not Whitfield, he's not Grundy and he's not Tompass. But he is better than Wines, O'Rourke, Mayes etc. Stringer is the only other one I'd have in my top 5.

[dee-luded 2,958]

That's great. Answer the question. Hand on your heart - have you seen him play?

I've seen him play a couple of times, but mostly I'm forming my opinion on the experiences of player types, who have tended to go on to being big stars, verses your Brad Ebert types.

I think Viney will be a great little player, but he's no Jonathon Patton, Joe Daniher, Grundy, Whitfield, or Toumpas, nor most likely Stringer.

I went to watch Trenners specificall when he played at Visy park in the U-18's, and I liked what I saw, as I did when I went to see Hurley seasons earlier and got to see Blease, Zarharakis & Watts.

re Watts & Trenners, at that stage we were relatively just starting to rebuild our list & I had the opinion then that we shouldn't take the longer odds risks on players such as Naitanui, Morabito, Rohan, Butcher, etc..

I'm very happy with what we've got with Trenners, Watts so far, Blease starting to grow, etc, But IMO its now the time to start to take the player with more Upside with Xtraordinary skills. > (Stringer & Mayes)

So again I still don't rate JV as a Pick 3.

Sorry i just don't. There are players ahead of him with the skills we need.

[Guest KingDingAling]

I went down to the championships, watched a lot of youtube and talked to a lot of vfl recruiters (I don't know any afl ones). Viney is top 5 in this draft in most people's opinion. He's not Whitfield, he's not Grundy and he's not Tompass. But he is better than Wines, O'Rourke, Mayes etc. Stringer is the only other one I'd have in my top 5.

Wines is the best midfielder in the draft.

I'd have him top 3.

Grundy/Wines/Whitfeild/Viney..... Can't really split them.

Wines and Viney at 3 and 4 would be a good get.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I've seen him play a couple of times

Where ?

[dee-luded 2,958]

Where ?

Who are you, Sherlock? Is this a cross examination or something?

I've watched him @ Oakleigh Chargers last year, & at training.

# Edit: Much the same as the other year, I wanted us to grab Daniel Talia, from my few observations, & likewise, Schoenmakers before him.

Edited July 26, 2012 by dee-luded

[dee-luded 2,958]

Wines is the best midfielder in the draft.

I'd have him top 3.

Grundy/Wines/Whitfeild/Viney..... Can't really split them.

Wines and Viney at 3 and 4 would be a good get.

Nice players. We won't get much finishing class tho, with those 2. I'd love to get them both, absolutely. but not with both top picks. I'd have Wines in front on size, height & apparently on class of ball use.

Edited July 26, 2012 by dee-luded

[Hannibal 5,814]

Who are you, Sherlock? Is this a cross examination or something?

I've watched him @ Oakleigh Chargers last year, & at training.

Yes it is. I'm trying to determine whether your declarations, such as "I don't rate him a pick 3. Sorry I just don't", are based on substance or guesswork. I've seen him train too, but I'd never count that as substance. I've ascertained that you've seen him play once as a 16 year old at Oakleigh. Don't you have Foxtel ? Do I assume you also haven't seen Toumpas and Wines ?

I too have seen him play live once (as a 17 year old) and twice on tv in the championships this year and clearly I don't feel that I'm in a position to make a definitive judgment on his playing ability, other than his pace is actually good and I loved his clearance handballs. I even had a PM a few weeks back from a poster whom I rate say "his lack of pace will find him out". He too had seen Viney once, but suddenly he's a Viney expert. Viney's pace and burst away speed from a pack is good, so I don't know what he was watching. This poster also said, "same size as Mitchell and Kerr but without the sidestep", whereas Knightmare says, "also athletically I like his agility and side step". My point ? There's so many people commenting on Viney with such little exposure to him or his capabilities. It was amusing to see Knightmare inadvertently completely contradict him on the sidestep. It's worthwhile noting that tackling is also a Viney feature.

I don't want to give up pick 3 either, and don't think we'll have to, but when I hear Terry Wallace say he's the best inside mid he's seen at underage level in 5 years I wonder why the angst. But now I know. I get messages from learned supporters incorrectly querying his pace and sidestep when those aspects happen to be his virtues, especially for an inside mid. And others, like yourself, say he's not worthy of pick 3 when you've seen him once as a 16 year old, while others, such as Knightmare, who've seen all of the noted players of the draft heaps of times, rate him as his third best player in the draft - irrespective of Father/Son.

Some are querying whether he's our most pressing need. My view - and others are welcome to disagree - is that A grade inside mids are more valuable than outside mids, especially when one considers that winning contested footy has never been more important. I've made this point before, but it's A grade mids that are like gold, note - not any old type of inside mid, but an elite inside mid - and we don't have one. Just as it makes sense to build a house from the ground up, doesn't it also make sense to build a midfield from the inside out. Get an A grade inside mid and compliment him with outside class. Bryce Gibbs was a pick one and a good outside mid at junior level, but is way off the quality expected of a pick one. Gibbs could win contested footy at junior level, but the step up to AFL is considerable. Thank God Melbourne don't have pick one. We'd pick Whitfield and he'd just as likely turn into a Bryce Gibbs at our club.

I posted earlier that if you go through most teams their best players are either key forwards, such as Franklin, Riewoldt, Goodes, Pavlich, or inside mids, such as Watson, Mitchell, Judd, Thompson, Boyd, Cotchin. But I agree that the best mids are the ones that can play well inside and also do damage on the outside, such as Swan and Pendlebury. Apparently many of you already know that Viney won't be able to do that.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[rpfc 27,630]

I just love his intangibles.

I would follow this kid and I want him to be in amongst our kids showing them how to play footy properly.

[drdrake 3,049]

What a great position our club is in come years end, we lose one outside mdfielder and we are in the position to get 3-4 highly rated young players(subject to trading). In 2009 we drafted at the time to two stand out midfielders at pick 1 and 2, great kids both a mile ahead of pick 3, move forward 3 seasons later and rank players from that draft, these two wouldn't be in the top 5. Go over the years and there are hit and misses every year, just because you are considered a top 5 pick at the time you are drafted doesn't mean you will be live up to that draft pick.

The more players you can pick up with in the top 25 the more chances you have to hopefully unearth some real talent. I'm not concerned were we take Viney, if he cost pick 3 no issue we still get another 3 picks that should be prior to 25, it would be a bonus if we keep 3 and use our second round pick on him but we are fortunate to be in a position that we have been given additional first round picks that will enable to us at worst case not only get Viney but two more picks including the third live pick.

I don't care who we take with our picks as long as they can kick and get the footy.

[Born to Run 204]

If Neeld goes and trades our draft picks away in a super draft to get some B grade mids that work hard I will have an absolute fit. It would be a repeat of the decade that followed 2001.

We need to learn to draft and develop our own stars. Not a quick fix to bump us half way up the ladder.

I don't expect miracles, but what I do hope and pray for is that we get (either by drafting or trading or poaching) are some players that I love to watch. Sometimes I can come to terms with the team being rubbish, but I just want a genuine gun to watch and marvel at. Many teams that have gone to the bottom have had these players, I just need one or two. At the moment Clark is almost there (love watching him, but need to see more) and that is about it unfortunately.

Richmond have been horrid for ages but got the pleasure of seeing Martin and Cotchin develop and play - they are worth watching and cause excitement.

Please - lets just get a few stars to our club, people we can build a club around. Not fussed if we dont climb the ladder quickly as long as we keep adding the occasional gun to the list.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Yes it is. I'm trying to determine whether your declarations, such as "I don't rate him a pick 3. Sorry I just don't", are based on substance or guesswork. I've seen him train too, but I'd never count that as substance. I've ascertained that you've seen him play once as a 16 year old at Oakleigh. Don't you have Foxtel ? Do I assume you also haven't seen Toumpas and Wines ?

I too have seen him play live once (as a 17 year old) and twice on tv in the championships this year and clearly I don't feel that I'm in a position to make a definitive judgment on his playing ability, other than his pace is actually good and I loved his clearance handballs. I even had a PM a few weeks back from a poster whom I rate say "his lack of pace will find him out". He too had seen Viney once, but suddenly he's a Viney expert. Viney's pace and burst away speed from a pack is good, so I don't know what he was watching. This poster also said, "same size as Mitchell and Kerr but without the sidestep", whereas Knightmare says, "also athletically I like his agility and side step". My point ? There's so many people commenting on Viney with such little exposure to him or his capabilities. It was amusing to see Knightmare inadvertently completely contradict him on the sidestep. It's worthwhile noting that tackling is also a Viney feature.

I don't want to give up pick 3 either, and don't think we'll have to, but when I hear Terry Wallace say he's the best inside mid he's seen at underage level in 5 years I wonder why the angst. But now I know. I get messages from learned supporters incorrectly querying his pace and sidestep when those aspects happen to be his virtues, especially for an inside mid. And others, like yourself, say he's not worthy of pick 3 when you've seen him once as a 16 year old, while others, such as Knightmare, who've seen all of the noted players of the draft heaps of times, rate him as his third best player in the draft - irrespective of Father/Son.

Some are querying whether he's our most pressing need. My view - and others are welcome to disagree - is that A grade inside mids are more valuable than outside mids, especially when one considers that winning contested footy has never been more important. I've made this point before, but it's A grade mids that are like gold, note - not any old type of inside mid, but an elite inside mid - and we don't have one. Just as it makes sense to build a house from the ground up, doesn't it also make sense to build a midfield from the inside out. Get an A grade inside mid and compliment him with outside class. Bryce Gibbs was a pick one and a good outside mid at junior level, but is way off the quality expected of a pick one. Gibbs could win contested footy at junior level, but the step up to AFL is considerable. Thank God Melbourne don't have pick one. We'd pick Whitfield and he'd just as likely turn into a Bryce Gibbs at our club.

I posted earlier that if you go through most teams their best players are either key forwards, such as Franklin, Riewoldt, Goodes, Pavlich, or inside mids, such as Watson, Mitchell, Judd, Thompson, Boyd, Cotchin. But I agree that the best mids are the ones that can play well inside and also do damage on the outside, such as Swan and Pendlebury. Apparently many of you already know that Viney won't be able to do that.

I haven't seen any of them 'Play this year, but you can use others expertise & wisdoms to glean information re certain types, their strengths coupled with our Obvious needs.

I was away during the start of the season, so couldn't see the games, but I know a little bit about AFL players, & haven't done too badly picking a number of good ones in past drafts.

Just recently I wished us us to go at Hepple, I think you'll find if you search I talked him up a lot Smedts, Schoenmakers, Talia, Blease, Zarharakis, missed on Hurley wanting Watts, So I'm starting to believe in my talent spotting more each year.

Knowing our deficiencies is a strong place to start, & then put players in an order according to they're skill sets that will make them hard to match up on, is I think important.

Viney is a tough little hombre', & has dominated under age for years. His aggression is ahead of his time, which has helped him be dominant, because he's developed early in this regard

Others will grow they're confidence as they mature closing the gap or overtaking him with the natural attributes they have over him, such as speed, height, weight, power, Kicking Skills, etc.

We have this year to get as many Quality kids as possible who are likely to become Jets. There's 4 or 5 I'd pick on a needs basis, before favoring a loved Father/Son prospect.

I know nothing of your abilities to pick U-18's draftees or if you have any at all.. But I've read Knightmare & Chris's draft threads for a few years now & they're pretty good IMO.

So if I can't get to games to see for myself like this year so far, then reading they're appraisals is a strong starting point. Cross reference this with your experience & you can form a solid point of view.

So for mine we need to go after speed & sublime skills before plain hard grunt. We've already got Beamer, & the Jones boy plus Magner, for inunder. But a dearth of real Class Inside & Spread with Elite kicking & speed.

So enough of me, tell us all, what of your recruiting talents Ben-wHo?

Edited July 27, 2012 by dee-luded

[furious d 447]

Your only mention of Heppell in the Dyson Heppell thread was a question to Jose.

"Looks like an attacking medium defender/flanker. How's he do man on man stopping an opponent?" You asked that on Sep 6 so you hadn't made your mind up early in the TAC finals he was dominating. So you jumped on board late when he had put his name into top 10 calculations, congratulations.

All of us armchair recruiting experts get a couple right every now and again, it's only the dee-luded among us who who convince themselves that this makes them some kind of an expert.

[Guest José Mourinho]

Exactly.

The idea of rating yourself as a talent spotter, because you can watch a game and pick out a few of the better players, is hilariously absurd!

The skill is not in identifying which players have talent - any idiot could see the players deeluded named were talented.

The skill is in identifying that Nat Fyfe will develop into a better player than Ben Cunnington, in spite of their performances at junior level.

It's in understanding what will make them a better player as they grow older, what attributes nudge one player's value ahead of another.

Of course Blease, zaharakis and schoenmakers would all be good players - but who would you pick first?

What about Gary Rohan? What about Gysberts? What about Lewis Jetta or Strauss?

The above is all rhetoric btw.

Edited July 28, 2012 by José Mourinho