National U18's Carnival

[Guest José Mourinho]

Don't reckon Harry Marsh is a smoky, unless you're talking about 1st round.

He's known about and he'll get picked up.

[jayceebee31 761]

Good analysis jcb.

I agree with most of what you say, except I think the altered rules for F/S bidding mean your plan for Viney to slip through is NQR.

I still believe we'll get him 2nd round though.

Just a shame there's no Serhat Temel / Majak Daw / Matthew Panos for us to hype into the first round, before he doesn't get drafted at all...

Aliir?

Allir, was best on the ground last week.Furthermore, Daw is showing something along with Panos did Ok in the pre season.However, evenI cannot get it right all the time especially with regards to Serhat.Ability was there and what we watch is talent and he had plenty.Problem is attitude. As Neeld said a couple of week's ago - they all have talent that play in this comp -- it is their attitude towards development and hard work. I cannot judge that from the boundary line.Furthermore, re Jack Viney, I think he is a beauty and will be great for us but if you look at what has been produced this championship Viney is not inthe best 10 going around.

A name virtually not mentioned is Taylor Garner whom will nearly be An All -Australian. Will be a great winger.Will play AFL seniors next year barring injury.

Based on games played and taking into account injuries,my best 25 are, and not in any order are:

O'Rourke, Macrae, Vlastuin, Jaksch, Viney, Daniher, Plowman and maybe Temay.---,Under17 possability Josh Kelly ..Vic Metro

Whitfield,Garner, Wines, Membrey, Stringer -, possible Under17-Crouch- Vic Country

Garlett,Lynch,consideration to Simpson, Shaw, Paparone,,-- Martin, Hogan possible Under 17's).---WA

Toumpas,Colquhoun,McDonough,Menzel,Grundy.,Mayes--SA.

Lonergan- Tas, Anderson- NT will also be considered early.

As you can see I have named 30 odd players whom I believe will form the majority of the top 25.

We will just have to wait till November to see whom do get picked up and what position.

Edited July 5, 2012 by jayceebee31

[jayceebee31 761]

Don't reckon Harry Marsh is a smoky, unless you're talking about 1st round.

He's known about and he'll get picked up.

Marsh will never go in first round IMO.Will be lucky to even to be picked up.

[Guest José Mourinho]

Marsh will never go in first round IMO.Will be lucky to even to be picked up.

Yes, well...

[Chris from Perth 1]

Don't reckon Harry Marsh is a smoky, unless you're talking about 1st round.

He's known about and he'll get picked up.

from the games i have sen this year a Big SMokey for me looks like being a backman from WA, who really reminded me of a young Jared RIvers

Kamdyn Mcintosh - 188cm, had a great game last night, looks to be cool and composed.

my smokey last year was Brandon Ellis and he went at 15, so not sure.

[Demanding Success 298]

I can't believe you are going off a couple of champ games to make an assessment on some off these players, especially viney. There is no way he is worth pick 13. In my opinion he is top 5.

Viney has just missed weeks because of a collision injury. Did you not see him against men vs Geelong and also in last years champs. He was so good, wojo was sick of being embarrassed and cleaned him up, a premiership player. Viney is the midfielder we have been prayer for, for years. He is moving at stoppages which we don't do, he wins contested ball and then runs away with opposition on his tail. He has pace and he delivers by hand and foot. He will assist greatly in our spread because the others will have confidence in him getting the pill.

I'm praying he slips through to the 2nd round but I cant see it happening. He and wines are easily the 2 best clearance players of this draft. I think the only team we need to worry about is the team that finishes second last because the team that comes last will pick whitfield. He did not win the larke medal for nothing. (I know Morton won it as well but so did coniglio)

I'm also happy to discuss most of these players if anyone has a question. I don't consider myself an expert but I have a nephew playing u18s (it's not viney) and a close family friend playing for vm u/16. I have watched a fair bit and try not to be biased but I loved Todd viney as a player even with his deficiencies and his son is the toughest straight ahead player I have seen.

There is no real point in talking about players from next years draft and there is no way I would give up 3 or 4 for Martin unless gws says to us before nomination day that they are going to nominate viney and we can make a deal.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Demanding Success

[dee-luded 2,959]

I can't believe you are going off a couple of champ games to make an assessment on some off these players, especially viney. There is no way he is worth pick 13. In my opinion he is top 5.

Viney has just missed weeks because of a collision injury. Did you not see him against men vs Geelong and also in last years champs. He was so good, wojo was sick of being embarrassed and cleaned him up, a premiership player. Viney is the midfielder we have been prayer for, for years. He is moving at stoppages which we don't do, he wins contested ball and then runs away with opposition on his tail. He has pace and he delivers by hand and foot. He will assist greatly in our spread because the others will have confidence in him getting the pill.

I'm praying he slips through to the 2nd round but I cant see it happening. He and wines are easily the 2 best clearance players of this draft. I think the only team we need to worry about is the team that finishes second last because the team that comes last will pick whitfield. He did not win the larke medal for nothing. (I know Morton won it as well but so did coniglio)

I'm also happy to discuss most of these players if anyone has a question. I don't consider myself an expert but I have a nephew playing u18s (it's not viney) and a close family friend playing for vm u/16. I have watched a fair bit and try not to be biased but I loved Todd viney as a player even with his deficiencies and his son is the toughest straight ahead player I have seen.

There is no real point in talking about players from next years draft and there is no way I would give up 3 or 4 for Martin unless gws says to us before nomination day that they are going to nominate viney and we can make a deal.

We need highly skilled Mid players, with the best pace we can find in those in that group.

Surely we have to take the best & most skilled mids available. Tough in/under isn't our biggest weakness. We have Jones, Magner, Couch yet to show his wares.

IMO we need Hard & Classy inside/outside players who can pinpoint the ball with both hands & both feet. Toumpas/Wines/Stringer.

Or a point of difference re height or outright speed etc. Stringer, or Mayes with great skills &/or pace/height.

In this regard I just don't see Viney in top 5.

I reckon from his skillsets he should be high, but around 5 - 10ish...

He's not in the A class of Whitfield or Toumpas, Grundy, Stringer, or even Wines.

Many are rating him on elite hardness alone & footy maturity, great against the U-18's & VFL, but when he has to play against AFL every week he won't be A1 Top 5.

All the players he comes up against will be stronger or as strong, & many as aggressive. It'

lt'll still take him a year or more to adjust to AFL intensity.

We are short on, for genuine "A Grade CLASS"...

[Guest KingDingAling]

I hope GC come last as one would think they'll take Whitfield.

GWS desperately need a ruckman, they should take Grundy - although Sheedy will bid just cause he

like to think that he is bigger than the game and loves the attention.

[Demanding Success 298]

I would agree on Whitfield and toumpas. I believe they would be great gets. Grundy also looks great but I'm a little against ruck men super early. Too many of the greats have come from late or rookie draft. On a very positive note gws want and need rucks.

I'm not sold on stringer. Pre-injury he was so much bigger than everyone else and using your analogy of viney where do you go when you are bigger than everyone else. He has struggled since coming back and a lot of it is fitness but I also wonder if size also has something to do with it. Some of those kids are getting bigger. I'm not sure where he will go but it wouldn't surprise me if he slid, not to 13 though.

I believe wines and viney are on similar ground. Collingwood has heaps of guys that go and get the footy and run away with it. They also kick goals. We can get our hands on it but never really seem to be running away from a contest. Moloney does it but he has had a horrid year. No one else does it at Melbourne. Jones kicks goals but I would love more midfielders that kick goals.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

We need highly skilled Mid players, with the best pace we can find in those in that group.

Surely we have to take the best & most skilled mids available. Tough in/under isn't our biggest weakness. We have Jones, Magner, Couch yet to show his wares.

IMO we need Hard & Classy inside/outside players who can pinpoint the ball with both hands & both feet. Toumpas/Wines/Stringer.

Or a point of difference re height or outright speed etc. Stringer, or Mayes with great skills &/or pace/height.

In this regard I just don't see Viney in top 5.

I reckon from his skillsets he should be high, but around 5 - 10ish...

He's not in the A class of Whitfield or Toumpas, Grundy, Stringer, or even Wines.

Many are rating him on elite hardness alone & footy maturity, great against the U-18's & VFL, but when he has to play against AFL every week he won't be A1 Top 5.

All the players he comes up against will be stronger or as strong, & many as aggressive. It'

lt'll still take him a year or more to adjust to AFL intensity.

We are short on, for genuine "A Grade CLASS"...

Last year in the U18 GF Viney was best on ground with 30 plus touches, Toby Greene was among the best on ground with less possessions and less influence; he seems to have adjusted to AFL quite well.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I would agree on Whitfield and toumpas. I believe they would be great gets. Grundy also looks great but I'm a little against ruck men super early. Too many of the greats have come from late or rookie draft. On a very positive note gws want and need rucks.

I'm not sold on stringer. Pre-injury he was so much bigger than everyone else and using your analogy of viney where do you go when you are bigger than everyone else. He has struggled since coming back and a lot of it is fitness but I also wonder if size also has something to do with it. Some of those kids are getting bigger. I'm not sure where he will go but it wouldn't surprise me if he slid, not to 13 though.

I believe wines and viney are on similar ground. Collingwood has heaps of guys that go and get the footy and run away with it. They also kick goals. We can get our hands on it but never really seem to be running away from a contest. Moloney does it but he has had a horrid year. No one else does it at Melbourne. Jones kicks goals but I would love more midfielders that kick goals.

NO, I'm interested in Stringer as a mid.. A topshelf Goddard type with better skills & a better mark. I don't know if he'll have the same tank, but testing should tell. A solid 6' 3" player with smarts, who can play Mids, & mark & kick goals, or drift or be pushed forward as a 3rd tall.

Kouta, or Goodes, a replacement for Morton.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I would agree on Whitfield and toumpas. I believe they would be great gets. Grundy also looks great but I'm a little against ruck men super early. Too many of the greats have come from late or rookie draft. On a very positive note gws want and need rucks.

I'm not sold on stringer. Pre-injury he was so much bigger than everyone else and using your analogy of viney where do you go when you are bigger than everyone else. He has struggled since coming back and a lot of it is fitness but I also wonder if size also has something to do with it. Some of those kids are getting bigger. I'm not sure where he will go but it wouldn't surprise me if he slid, not to 13 though.

I believe wines and viney are on similar ground. Collingwood has heaps of guys that go and get the footy and run away with it. They also kick goals. We can get our hands on it but never really seem to be running away from a contest. Moloney does it but he has had a horrid year. No one else does it at Melbourne. Jones kicks goals but I would love more midfielders that kick goals.

I think Toumpas, & Wines are noted to be a classier ball users the Viney. I see Viney with Jones in/under. Gradually get better with disposal.

I see Toumpas/ Wines as inside ball winners & users. We need this type who can also step their way through the traffic.

I want Viney, one way or another, just Not with pick 3 or pick 4. Even if it's via another club.

# Moloney is short on Class, Sylvia has the Class.

#Edit-edit: It seems some are trying to misconstrue my edit statement, So I'll clarify, > sylvia has the finishing class & the athleticism's & enough pace and good on the run to deliver the ball very well.

This is meant as a description of the positives that go toward being a class player, but I think it goes without saying in this thread, what his weaknesses are. So I didn't bother as I thought most would have enough intelligence to comprehend the theme.

But some I'm sure, some are just a bit mischievous trying to sell they're own idea's, by trying to misrepresent another post.

Edited July 5, 2012 by dee-luded

[Hannibal 5,814]

I understand Viney is being pegged back due to his height and the belief that many of the advantages he's had as a junior he won't have at AFL level, but I'm not as convinced that he'll be the vanilla player some seem to be portraying. There's a particular talent in footy that gets completely overlooked in the media and on forums and that is a players' ability to be able to read the play and find the ball. Our best mid only gets it 22 times a game. Some people wonder why Brock McLean isn't as good as the equally slow Jobe Watson, but they're missing the fact that one is an A grader due to their ability to read the play and make the right decisions and the other is average at these incredibly underrated skills (one is also a great handballer and the other isn't). It's why Swan is so good. Watson is also a leader, which is why he's been able to elevate his game. It's come about through determination and single mindedness to be the best he can be. Viney also has an unyielding makeup in his character to be the best he can be. I think this is another trait that is overlooked by all and sundry. He was put up age groups in juniors because he was manic and hurting kids. He wins B&F after B&F at juniors because he's single minded. He plays in a first XV111 premiership team at school when he's in Year 9. That is incredible determination from a young fellow and don't tell me he had a physical advantage over 17 year olds when he was a short 14 year old. It shows how strong his mind is. His leadership is a trait we need and will serve us well. A poster on another site, who doesn't barrack for Melbourne, called him a "culture changer". The nay sayers may be right, but I'm not convinced that the qualities he brings to the table will prohibit him from being elite in due course. And I do think we need his 'type', because despite Neeld's love of Moloney's clearance ability (mentioned recently at a private function) I don't reckon we've got one quality inside mid - and not with Viney's pace away from a pack. Games are still won by contested footy, good decisions, and clean disposal. I agree that we're in dire need for outside class and a Jimmy Toumpas type will help in this regard.

I suppose what I'm saying is that great players are often great players because of their mind. It's often down to the head on their shoulders. Garry Ablett is a great player not because of his height and not only because of his speed and not only because of his strength. He's a great player because of what he does with his talents. Because of his workrate. I don't know if Viney will be a great player, but I do know he'll leave no stone unturned in his efforts to become one. How many players can you say that about ?

I reckon some are starting to sell him short, in particular I love his pace for an inside mid and attack on the contest. His attack on the contest will hold him in good stead in any environment. Numerous footy watchers have said that he is without doubt the toughest junior they've ever seen. Sylvia is built like Tarzan, but his attack on the ball at stoppages is pitiful. He attacks the man with the ball, but rarely wins the ball himself. There's a reason that Viney has dominated at every level he's ever played at, but the underlying tone by some is that he'll be found out a little once he reaches the AFL. I don't subscribe to that theory. He reads the play too well and has an appetite for the contest unmatched by 95% of players.

Marc Murphy is 180cms, Sammy Mitchell 179cms, Daniel Kerr 178cms, and Shane Crawford was 174cms. Viney is only 178cms, but he's a footballer first and foremost. And I believe he has the traits to become elite. He may not have the left foot of Hodge, or Rich, but he's a very accurate pass over 35 metres, makes smart decisions and would kill his Grandmother to get to the ball first, not to mention succeed.

[rpfc 28,543]

I suppose what I'm saying is that great players are often great players because of their mind. It's often down to the head on their shoulders. Garry Ablett is a great player not because of his height and not only because of his speed and not only because of his strength. He's a great player because of what he does with his talents. Because of his workrate. I don't know if Viney will be a great player, but I do know he'll leave no stone unturned in his efforts to become one. How many players can you say that about ?

I reckon some are starting to sell him short, in particular I love his pace for an inside mid and attack on the contest. His attack on the contest will hold him in good stead in any environment. Numerous footy watchers have said that he is without doubt the toughest junior they've ever seen. Sylvia is built like Tarzan, but his attack on the ball at stoppages is pitiful. He attacks the man with the ball, but rarely wins the ball himself. There's a reason that Viney has dominated at every level he's ever played at, but the underlying tone by some is that he'll be found out a little once he reaches the AFL. I don't subscribe to that theory. He reads the play too well and has an appetite for the contest unmatched by 95% of players.

Well said.

I have posted this before, and I truly believe it - some on here are being blinded by the F/S process and the possible happenstance of us paying with Pick 3 for a Viney.

If his last name wasn't Viney - we would be praying he lasts till 3 so we could get him.

His intangibles that BH mentions above is the reason I want him in that group.

[jez.w 5]

I liked Toumpas and Wines, but I reckon Sam Mayes was the one that really impressed me. His extra height to mark over the top of an opponent at one stage, and one instance where he spread to the wing to receive out of defence I thought showed good speed and a great work ethic. I only saw the one match yesterday, but he didn't miss a target by foot. I hope he slips through to the second round.

[The Lobster Effect 893]

Allir, was best on the ground last week.

here's an article on aliir x 2 (obviously his parents couldn't come up with a first name)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/all-eyes-on-sudanese-born-aliir-aliir/story-fn9eu7in-1226413058922

[dee-luded 2,959]

Well said.

I have posted this before, and I truly believe it - some on here are being blinded by the F/S process and the possible happenstance of us paying with Pick 3 for a Viney.

If his last name wasn't Viney - we would be praying he lasts till 3 so we could get him.

His intangibles that BH mentions above is the reason I want him in that group.

Rubbish! His name being Viney, has nothing to do with it.

I'd say some have got the goggles on, he's not top 5 in class. No matter how you want to dress it up.

We need the quality players to feed/get the ball & run & do something classy with it. We need the Pendlebury's & Thomas's & Mark Murphy's, Much more than the Jonses we already have.

[rpfc 28,543]

Rubbish!

We need the quality players to feed/get the ball & run & do something classy with it. We need the Pendlebury's & Thomas's & Mark Murphy's, Much more than the Jonses we already have.

Don't know if it is 'rubbish'...

But I think we pigeon-hole players with far too much impunity and I don't think your characterisation of Viney as a 'Jones' is helpful at all. You don't know Viney's ceiling. Hell, I am surprised by Jones' ceiling yearly as he pushes it skyward.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Rubbish! His name being Viney, has nothing to do with it.

I'd say some have got the goggles on, he's not top 5 in class. No matter how you want to dress it up.

We need the quality players to feed/get the ball & run & do something classy with it. We need the Pendlebury's & Thomas's & Mark Murphy's, Much more than the Jonses we already have.

The name Viney makes us Dees supporters want him even more, & want to pay whatever to get him, even overvalue him, as your doing.

He's a definite 1st Rnd player worth around the 5 - 12 range, probably 6 or 7. But some teams in my estimations need to draft for need instead of best available first.

They need more grunt, hard inunder ball winners, & more maturity.

The Teams trying to build a completely fresh list, need certain types to get them rolling, including US. As I said we need Class ball movers.

$cully, Morton, Bennell, Sylvia, Davey, Moloney, Maric, & to lesser extent, Strauss & Bail haven't come on. Thats a long list of under performances.

We need the Running Class first, and to a lesser extent we need Viney as well, as long a he's Not in Our first 2 picks.

I hope the Suns bid for him.

Edited July 5, 2012 by dee-luded

[jayceebee31 761]

here's an article on aliir x 2 (obviously his parents couldn't come up with a first name)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/all-eyes-on-sudanese-born-aliir-aliir/story-fn9eu7in-1226413058922

I did not iniiatally read this article, therefore thanks for raising it with us.Hope he makes it, great story even better than Serhart Temel.

[Guest José Mourinho]

Who on earth would you hope the suns bid on him, if you want him with our 2nd round pick..?!

[Guest José Mourinho]

One thing forgotten about with the draftees, in respect to Viney's value in particular, is that it's often said that at the pointy end of the draft, you choose based on character just as much as talent.

Most recently I recall hearing Malthouse say it.

Viney simply has A grade character.

[jayceebee31 761]

from the games i have sen this year a Big SMokey for me looks like being a backman from WA, who really reminded me of a young Jared RIvers

Kamdyn Mcintosh - 188cm, had a great game last night, looks to be cool and composed.

my smokey last year was Brandon Ellis and he went at 15, so not sure.

He will get picked up, strong hard at it .I feel a 3rd or 4 th round pick up.

[jayceebee31 761]

The name Viney makes us Dees supporters want him even more, & want to pay whatever to get him, even overvalue him, as your doing.

He's a definite 1st Rnd player worth around the 5 - 12 range, probably 6 or 7. But some teams in my estimations need to draft for need instead of best available first.

They need more grunt, hard inunder ball winners, & more maturity.

The Teams trying to build a completely fresh list, need certain types to get them rolling, including US. As I said we need Class ball movers.

$cully, Morton, Bennell, Sylvia, Davey, Moloney, Maric, & to lesser extent, Strauss & Bail haven't come on. Thats a long list of under performances.

We need the Running Class first, and to a lesser extent we need Viney as well, as long a he's Not in Our first 2 picks.

I hope the Suns bid for him.

Please explain - Why you hope the Suns pick him up- that will mean we have to take him with our first pick.Doesn't make sense- unlessI am missing something.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

I did not iniiatally read this article, therefore thanks for raising it with us.Hope he makes it, great story even better than Serhart Temel.

It is a great story. Aliir has an older brother Dombai who was pretty handy as well and a younger borther Cip who I think might be even better than Aliir. As much as I love Aliir I just don't think he'll find a role in AFL. I wouldn't be surprised if someone rookied him but I'm not sure he'll make it. Despite what Clayton say, he simply isn't tall enough to play ruck with the big boys and he's a long long way from making it as a key position player. Hope I'm wrong.

He's also got a sister who played for my school team and then for my club team. She used to monster the other girls in the ruck - scared the hell out of them. They're a great family and it would be huge for all of them if Aliir made it onto a list.