Jack Watts

[Guest José Mourinho]

The type of intensity that Watts needs to find exceeds what Morton needs to find. Watts needs to compete hard aerially, which is the most challenging aspect in football. It would be nice for Morton to improve that aspect of his game too, but it's not as vital.

One is being groomed as a key forward and the other isn't. This is a key issue and I can't stress that enough. If Watts improved his intensity to just Morton's recent offerings it won't be nearly enough for the position the club wants him to play. It's all about degrees and unfortunately for Jack he has to overcome the biggest physical hurdles of all to play the toughest role on the ground. It won't be easy. He's a small chance imo.

When you play as a tall in the back-line your courage is questioned, but it's not nearly as exposed as when you're a key forward. I hope you understand the distinction. It could well be that Watts ends up a tall defender and contributes in a premiership team. I reckon that is far more likely than Watts contributing in a premiership team as a CHF.

I understand completely what you are saying, but I disagree.

Watts might not compete as often or with as much intensity as you'd like, but I think it's well within him.

He just needs a mindset adjustment.

It's not like he flinches, pulls out of contests or ducks his head.

He just doesn't go in anywhere often enough.

I've seen him go for pack marks without fear, put his head over the ball and win a hard contested footy.

It is within him.

We just need to get him in the mindset to do it a hell of a lot more.

[deanox 9,922]

But you have to stop thinking that it's RARE for key forwards to do much in their early years. Just about ever key forward star in history has been fantastic by their 4th year and the age of 21. Learn your history.

In perspective, Jack was one of the youngest players to be drafted in his year, and during that first season only trained at the club once a week while he finished his schooling and only play 3 games for the season. Effectively this is only his 3rd season as a full time footballer...

He had a great run between round 8 and round 15 last season where in 8 matches he averaged 21 touches and kicked 12 goals. As a young developing player, I would argue he has been reasonably consistent rather than the usual rollercoaster ups and downs; maybe one of our biggest concerns is that he hasn't dominated games?

[Hannibal 5,814]

It is within him.

We just need to get him in the mindset to do it a hell of a lot more.

Well if that's the case we don't disagree on much. I too agree that it's in the mind and said so in post #812 on this page.

I just don't have as much confidence that he'll overcome his hurdles as you. He needs to compete hard aerially all the time in the toughest position on the ground. It's not easy and it doesn't come naturally. Chris Yarran is a terrific player, but he doesn't need to compete in the same fashion as Watts. He doesn't need the same effort to play well that Watts needs to develop. And nor does Morton.

I hope he proves me wrong.

[Hannibal 5,814]

In perspective, Jack was one of the youngest players to be drafted in his year, and during that first season only trained at the club once a week while he finished his schooling and only play 3 games for the season. Effectively this is only his 3rd season as a full time footballer...

He had a great run between round 8 and round 15 last season where in 8 matches he averaged 21 touches and kicked 12 goals. As a young developing player, I would argue he has been reasonably consistent rather than the usual rollercoaster ups and downs; maybe one of our biggest concerns is that he hasn't dominated games?

Every Melbourne supporter knows Watts' journey and training twice a week in his first year as a schoolboy, etc..

I've already said that I don't expect him to dominate games. I expect him to compete like a key forward and he doesn't. Bailey's game plan suited Watts far more than Neeld's. Neeld expects his key forwards to become a long kicking target where they'll either compete hard in the air and mark, or bring it to ground. Under Bailey Watts played far more as a half forward flanker where he got on his bike and used space. Occasionally he'd surprise himself, me and everyone else at the ground and take a strong pack mark, but it's another thing entirely to compete well and hard in the air consistently, i.e. every quarter of every game. He'll still need to get on his bike and use his natural attributes, but he has to be far more comfortable having a ball kicked on his head. The challenge is before him, but right now it's beyond him. Let's hope he can develop it. Don't stake your life on it.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[Guest José Mourinho]

Well if that's the case we don't disagree on much. I too agree that it's in the mind and said so in post #812 on this page.

I just don't have as much confidence that he'll overcome his hurdles as you. He needs to compete hard aerially all the time in the toughest position on the ground. It's not easy and it doesn't come naturally. Chris Yarran is a terrific player, but he doesn't need to compete in the same fashion as Watts. He doesn't need the same effort to play well that Watts needs to develop. And nor does Morton.

I hope he proves me wrong.

Yep, I think you're right - we don't disagree on much.

We pretty much agree on the problem.

I think I'm just much more positive that it will change.

Edited May 6, 2012 by José Mourinho

[deanox 9,922]

Every Melbourne supporter knows Watts' journey and training twice a week in his first year as a schoolboy, etc..

I've already said that I don't expect him to dominate games. I expect him to compete like a key forward and he doesn't. Bailey's game plan suited Watts far more than Neeld's. Neeld expects his key forwards to become a long kicking target where they'll either compete hard in the air and mark, or bring it to ground. Under Bailey Watts played far more as a half forward flanker where he got on his bike and used space. Occasionally he'd surprise himself, me and everyone else at the ground and take a strong pack mark, but it's another thing entirely to compete well and hard in the air consistently, i.e. every quarter of every game. He'll still need to get on his bike and use his natural attributes, but he has to be far more comfortable having a ball kicked on his head. The challenge is before him, but right now it's beyond him. Let's hope he can develop it. Don't stake your life on it.

Then I think you have it wrong. Watts is not Mitch Clarke. He isn't that build, he isn't that player. If that is what you want (or expected) Watts to be then it is you who has the problem, not Jack Watts. I'm not having a dig at you here (as I don't even know your overall stance on the issue), I'm just suggesting that instead of judging Watts against what you want him to be, judge him against what he really is. The same as anyone who wanted Jeff White to be a Stephen King type ruckman (strong marking ruck/forward, as opposed to agile jumping tap ruck/kick behind play), or anyone who would expect Clint Bartram to be an Andrew McLeod (they both play back pocket right?).

And I disagree RE the game plan. The real Watts can't play as the Watts you want in Neelds game plan, because that role is for a gorilla forward (for want of a better term). The real Watts can play any number of roles within Neelds game plan; midfielder at centre bounces, on the wing, flanker forward, even a little bit of time as a KPF.

I am not saying he is set to be a star, nor that he is doing enough right now, but it seems pointless to derail a player based on unrealistic expectation of what role we would like him to play.

[Ouch! 2,263]

I think Deanox is pretty much on the money. People are looking for Watts to still be the KPF that he was recruited to be. He is not going to be a gorilla in body shape anytime in the next 4-5 years IMO, I think we should consider how Watts would best suit the team NOW. We have Clark as the KPF now, perhaps we should consider Watts to play a role more like Pavlich or Koutafides. Wing and midfield with the ability to push forward and create goals.

As a case study for how the game has changed....we should be looking at how the game has changed and impacted Nick Riewoldt's game. Kozi is their Gorilla and after watching him last night, he offers more up forward when he can get his head in the right place. Especally with Riewoldt's woeful kicking.

Perhaps later in his career they can get him bulked up for a tilt as a KPF like Gerhig did with his career.

[Range Rover 1,935]

This was what Watts looked like as a 17yo ...

It's fanciful to think you're going to transform that frame into one that can hold it's own against gorilla defenders by the age of 21. This doesn't excuse the lack of intensity and poor tackling of the present day version of Watts, but Ben-Hur you are off the mark with your expectations in terms of what he's capable of.

Here's a recent side-on photo of him. I think anyone would have to agree he lacks the upper-body musculature necessary to compete as a true KPF.

I agree with the above poster (Oucher) when he says the best we can hope for in terms of KPF possibilities from Watts won't be until he's around 25yo in the mould of a Gehrig. Even then I have my doubts.

He just doesn't have the somato-type.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Range Rover

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

I'm not worried about watts, I must be one of the few but il be happy if he plays up the field because I think playing on flank is ideal for him, the more he gets the ball the happier I am because his disposal is top notch! He will be fine, I would be more than happy to see him back in the team ASAP

[Hannibal 5,814]

I think Deanox is pretty much on the money. People are looking for Watts to still be the KPF that he was recruited to be. He is not going to be a gorilla in body shape anytime in the next 4-5 years IMO,

Who has ever said that Watts will be a gorilla ? Supporters change their defence of Watts based on their own misinterpretations of those that think poorly of his efforts.

Jack Riewoldt is having a poor year, but he's a skinny key forward that has an appetite for the aerial contest. He has a crack. Watts doesn't. That's the problem.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

I'm very confused about Watts. He played every game last year, kicked 21 goals for the season and set up a lot, averaged over 16 possessions a game and seemed to have a steady improvement, and was deservedly placed in the top ten of our B&F.

From what I have seen this year his form has slightly dropped off and there are still weaknesses such as his toughness and his ability to lead from the fifty. But I do think he is in our top 10 best players and is a talented guy, I feel that his dropping must be illogical and it's a bold move. I'd like to see him back on Friday night and hopefully the week off has made him hungrier for success. I do not want to see him out for extended lengths because I feel we are disadvantaged. Could Neeld be a bit unsettled by Watts and more sceptical about him compared with Bailey's attitude to developing him? Time will tell. Keep in mind that Watts has played 42 consecutive games.

Excuse me for continuing the Watts-Riewoldt comparison, but in Riewoldt's 2002 season (his 2nd) and Watts' 2011 (his 3rd, I know in that sense the comparison is off but Watts was a younger draftee and hardly had a 2009 season) they both played every game and kicked the same number (21 goals). Watts had more of the ball and Riewoldt took more marks. But I think that is a good enough indication to suggest that Watts will be a key force in about 2 years, providing he continues the little things he does well, improves his marking capabilities (we have seen him take a few good grabs before) and finding the ball inside fifty. I still see a good forward set up with Watts, Jurrah, Clark, Green and Petterd, along with Howe and Davey that hasn't been available for sussing this season (Bye bye Dunn and perhaps Bate)

[Adam The God 30,259]

Jack Riewoldt is having a poor year, but he's a skinny key forward that has an appetite for the aerial contest. He has a crack. Watts doesn't. That's the problem.

Riewoldt is not a skinny key forward. He's just as strong as Chip (but not as quick). He's deceptively strong. Watts has the body to be incredibly strong. I'm 24, six foot six, have done weights since year 11 and only just now am I beginning to bulk up. It takes time for these guys to grow into their bodies. With professional personal training and weight resumes, Watts might be able to get there a little earlier. 24 or 25 is when I expect him to be able to dominate his opponent physically.

Watts has a crack, but we need to see it more often. It'll come. Just like it is slowly with Morton.

[deanox 9,922]

Who has ever said that Watts will be a gorilla ? Supporters change their defence of Watts based on their own misinterpretations of those that think poorly of his efforts.

Jack Riewoldt is having a poor year, but he's a skinny key forward that has an appetite for the aerial contest. He has a crack. Watts doesn't. That's the problem.

I actually think he does pretty well in the air for someone his build/weight and he even manages to snare the odd strong body on body mark. What he doesn't do is crash packs. And he won't. Maybe late in his career, bit atm he is better one on one or on the lead: and when was the last time we kicked to anyone on a lead?

[DeeZee 7,396]

I like the boy!

[Guest José Mourinho]

Who has ever said that Watts will be a gorilla ? Supporters change their defence of Watts based on their own misinterpretations of those that think poorly of his efforts.

Jack Riewoldt is having a poor year, but he's a skinny key forward that has an appetite for the aerial contest. He has a crack. Watts doesn't. That's the problem.

But once again, this is just a mental thing.

All he needs is an adjustment.

It will happen with time.

So what's the issue - why the doom and gloom?

[dpositive 1,665]

In the Mitch Clark thread I have said that Clarke can make space and Watts can perhaps better use that space with his speed flexibility and disposal.

I reckon he is still very much a developing unit and form will fluctuate

But there is plenty to admire and there is also much hope that he can show that intensity that all supporters have.

As I said in the two captains thread we dont always get it right as long as there is intent and this manifests as improvement

I would love nothing better than for Watts to be a part of the successful premiership Demons. Even if he doesnt match Hardeman Neitz Lyon who were all fantastic but I think also had the odd day off.

[Biffen 12,943]

Riewoldt is not a skinny key forward. He's just as strong as Chip (but not as quick). He's deceptively strong. Watts has the body to be incredibly strong. I'm 24, six foot six, have done weights since year 11 and only just now am I beginning to bulk up. It takes time for these guys to grow into their bodies. With professional personal training and weight resumes, Watts might be able to get there a little earlier. 24 or 25 is when I expect him to be able to dominate his opponent physically.

Watts has a crack, but we need to see it more often. It'll come. Just like it is slowly with Morton.

Thanks Cale but this is a fans forum .We believe you.

[Hannibal 5,814]

But once again, this is just a mental thing.

So what's the issue - why the doom and gloom?

Because in his 4th year I don't see any improvement when it comes to his physicality in marking contests. Once again, I need to stress, this isn't a "crash and bash" request, this is simply wanting Watts to compete at an acceptable level in the hardest physical position on the ground. You seem to think that it will be easy to fix. I don't. In fact I've seen enough of his DNA to doubt he ever will, well not to the levels required of a CHF. He may be able to carve out a reasonable career in defence, or up the ground, but I judge him on his capacity to impact games as a key forward. And I suspect the coach does too.

About 8 or so years ago on the old Demonland site I was very critical of Aaron Davey getting a top 3 placement in the B&F. I was roundly condemned for my stance, but for me Davey was soft and whilst he had a good year there was no way I'd reward a player that didn't go in nearly hard enough with such a high ranking. Daniher never set a standard for Davey and basically was saying to Davey and his teammates that it's ok not to put your head over the ball. Davey's pitiful effots in the hardness stakes also stemmed from the mind and they remain to this day. Footy is about standards and non negotiables. Someone on here said that Watts was having a crack. Clearly it's very difficult for me to have any influence on someone's opinion when we view Watts' efforts so differently. Every time I bring up a skinny 19 year old Cameron and his manic attack on an aerial contest, or a skinny Nate Fyfe, or even a lightly framed Jack Riewoldt, I'm met with the same banal comments about Watts needing time, etc. One day people will realise that Watts simply doesn't have the appetite for an aggressive marking contest. Even in juniors he relied on his guile and speed. He's never played the way he'll need to in the AFL. I also accept that he'll need confidence in his body and strength to undertake a more physical approach, but it's not just confidence, it's knowing that he needs to change the way he approaches contests. That's going to take a massive shift in mindset, not to mention much time.

So, while we're in furious agreement that it's all in the mind when it comes to Watts, we're in furious disagreement when it comes to how easily he'll be able to change it. Well, certainly to the levels I'd find acceptable and the levels he'd need to get to to impact games consistently as a key forward. There is a reason that Watts is viewed as soft in the AFL community. People that have been involved in the game can spot a timid approach a mile away. The ball is in Watts' court to change it. It won't be easy, hence the doom and gloom.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[mrtwister 652]

Because in his 4th year I don't see any improvement when it comes to his physicality in marking contests. One again, I need to stress, this isn't a "crash and bash" request, this is simply wanting Watts to compete at an acceptable level in the hardest physical position on the ground. You seem to think that it will be easy to fix. I don't. In fact I've seen enough of his DNA to doubt he ever will, well not to the levels required of a CHF. He may be able to carve out a reasonable career in defence, or up the ground, but I judge him on his capacity to impact games as a key forward. And I suspect the coach does too.

About 8 or so years ago on the old Demonland site I was very critical of Aaron Davey getting a top 3 placement in the B&F. I was roundly condemned for my stance, but for me Davey was soft and whilst he had a good year there was no way I'd reward a player that didn't go in nearly hard enough with such a high ranking. Daniher never set a standard for Davey and basically was saying to Davey and his teammates that it's ok not to put your head over the ball. Davey's pitiful effots in the hardness stakes also stemmed from the mind and they remain to this day. Footy is about standards and non negotiables. Someone on here said that Watts was having a crack. Clearly it's very difficult for me to have any influence on someone's opinion when we view Watts' efforts so differently. Every time I bring up a skinny 19 year old Cameron and his manic attack on an aerial contest, or a skinny Nate Fyfe, or even a lightly framed Jack Riewoldt, I'm met with the same banal comments about Watts needing time, etc. One day people will realise that Watts simply doesn't have the appetite for an aggressive marking contest. Even in juniors he relied on his guile and speed. He's never played the way he'll need to in the AFL. I also accept that he'll need confidence in his body and strength to undertake a more physical approach, but it's not just confidence, it's knowing that he needs to change the way he approaches contests. That's going to take a massive shift in mindset, not to mention much time.

So, while we're in furious agreement that it's all in the mind when it comes to Watts, we're in furious disagreement when it comes to how easily he'll be able to change it. Well, certainly to the levels I'd find acceptable and the levels he'd need to get to to impact games consistently as a key forward. There is a reason that Watts is viewed as soft in the AFL community. People that have been involved in the game can spot a timid approach a mile away. The ball is in Watts' court to change it. It won't be easy, hence the doom and gloom.

+1

[deanox 9,922]

Because in his 4th year I don't see any improvement when it comes to his physicality in marking contests.

...

One day people will realise that Watts simply doesn't have the appetite for an aggressive marking contest. Even in juniors he relied on his guile and speed. He's never played the way he'll need to in the AFL.

I actually think his physicality in marking contests has improved. Doesnt mean it is now outstanding, but it has improved.

And point 2 is the best point anyone has ever made on this site about Watts! He isn't that type of player! He wasn't that type of player! He probably never will be that type of player! Now we just need everyone to judge him against his abilities and not against what they hoped/expected him to be without seeing him.

[Guest José Mourinho]

...

I see that you make some good points, but as you say, we are in fierce disagreement over whether Watts will get there or not.

In my view, he simply has the character, the intelligence and the talent to adjust his mindset.

And it will happen with time.

I don't think you are willing to afford players the time to develop that they need.

Sure others in the past may have done it quicker, and you'd prefer 10 years as an A-grader instead of 7 years.

But that doesn't mean they will never get there.

Similar to what Neeld said recently, about some players coming in with that inherent intensity, whilst others have to learn it and have it instilled.

It doesn't mean they can't get there, and to assume that is a foolish view in my opinion.

You may have seen many times in the past where it has been tried but hasn't worked, but I put that down to lacking the necessary resources and expertise, or the player themselves lacking the building blocks needed.

I have no doubt that Watts has these core elements within him that will see him succeed.

[Hannibal 5,814]

And point 2 is the best point anyone has ever made on this site about Watts! He isn't that type of player! He wasn't that type of player! He probably never will be that type of player! Now we just need everyone to judge him against his abilities and not against what they hoped/expected him to be without seeing him.

That's fine, but don't expect a star. What he could get away with at juniors he can't at AFL level, which is why he's been exposed. He'll be a good player, but a terrible pick one. And that's the tragedy for me. We needed to draft a star and we haven't.

Dolts like Biffen (sic) still think he'll be a 'star', so let's analyse your options. You can align yourself to Biff's renowned footy acumen, you can listen to the unbridled hope of passionate yet biased supporters, you can heed the thoughts of plenty of successful AFL people that think he's soft and in hindsight a poor pick, or you can trust your own judgment.

I will agree that if Watts was pick 50 we wouldn't be having this conversation. Where he was chosen in the draft is important to me, but not so to some others.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[Guest José Mourinho]

That's fine, but don't expect a star. What he could get away with at juniors he can't at AFL level, which is why he's been exposed. He'll be a good player, but a terrible pick one. And that's the trajedy for me. We needed to draft a star and we haven't.

Dolts like Biffen (sic) still think he'll be a 'star', so let's analyse your options. You can align yourself to Biff's renowned footy acumen, you can listen to the unbridled hope of passionate yet biased supporters, you can heed the thoughts of plenty of successful AFL people that think he's soft and in hindsight a poor pick, or you can trust your own judgment.

I will agree that if Watts was pick 50 we wouldn't be having this conversation. Where he was chosen in the draft is important to me, but not so to some others.

He plays like that now, but that's not to say he can't change, and isn't changing.

And it wouldn't be the first time a lot of people regarded as AFL "experts" have been very very wrong.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Jack has severe limitations in the intensity department.

Can you change something that's not intrinsically innate? The love for a contest? To compete?

I don't think so.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Jack has severe limitations in the intensity department.

Can you change something that's not intrinsically innate? The love for a contest? To compete?

I don't think so.

I didn't hear Cam Mooney on the radio with Harford a couple of days ago, but my Brother just told me about their conversation with regards to Watts. Mooney stated that Watts had more talent in his little finger than himself, but that his lack of intensity at contests will make, or break him. He stated that Watts had to play like his life depended on it and that he had to do it for every minute of every game. He said that was the requirement for modern footy in 2012. Harford asked whether you can develop that type of effort if it doesn't come naturally. He added that he didn't think you could. Mooney disagreed and said that you can develop it, but if he doesn't he won't make it.

It pretty much sums up my views. Can Watts develop his effort and intensity and put his body on the line like his life depended on it for every game he plays ? I doubt it, Jose doesn't, and Deonox doesn't think he needs to. I know who I hope is right.