perhaps we can bluff some $out of another club. Russian would be a very good SE Suburban player. He is too slow, lacks any versatility, poor kick and the list goes on. Dees lack mongrel.

I can't believe some of the crap i'm reading on this thread.

Jamar has never been a high accumulator. What he does provide, when not tearing apart another ruckman, is a contest. At worst he gives a good account of himself in the ruck, his primary role in the team (not as much can be said for many in the team at the moment). If we are relying on him to get possession numbers too, then our mids aren't doing their job (which we all know). If he is under-performing in terms of influence on a game, throw him forward. Why not? He has proven he can take an overhead mark (most of our forwards can't do that atm) plus he will either take the heat off Clark, or get an inferior defender.

Apart from Gawn (who even after his knee reco, will take a while to come on) and if Clark predominantly plays forward, we only have Stef as a replacement. He is putting in less of an influence than the Russian at the moment. Spencer is just a list clogger, and must be in hysterics that he is still on an AFL wage and Fitzpatrick, seriously? This guy whilst raw, is so far away from deserving a regular senior game that kids born yesterday have a better chance of making it, before he does.

Jamar seems lost when Moloney doesn't play. While he can be one of the top rucks in the league, he needs to address this ASAP. One of the most notciable things about the better rucks in the league is their ability to be multi-dimensional. They have 3 or 4 midfielders who know what position to run to, and that's where we need to get to. We should know at a stoppage that if Moloney isn't in the "right spot", that we have another 2 or 3 players that can run to where Jamar is going to tap it. At the moment, you'd love to be an opposition midfielder, especially in teams that don't have a dominant ruck, as you'd just rove to Jamar's taps all day long, especially if the bloke that's tagging Moloney can block him from the contest. If I can see how easy it is, imagine how easy it is for people that are actually experts in their field!

I can't believe some of the crap i'm reading on this thread.

Jamar has never been a high accumulator. What he does provide, when not tearing apart another ruckman, is a contest. At worst he gives a good account of himself in the ruck, his primary role in the team (not as much can be said for many in the team at the moment). If we are relying on him to get possession numbers too, then our mids aren't doing their job (which we all know).

Agree. The condemnation of Jamar is extraordinary. Some short memories here. He has put in one moderate game and a poor game this year and he may as well running around in the No 29 jumper with Newton in the footy record.

Spencer is just a list clogger, and must be in hysterics that he is still on an AFL wage and Fitzpatrick, seriously?

And then you went and added more crap.

Jamar seems lost when Moloney doesn't play.

Its actually the other way. We do need more midfielders to stand but that does not stop Jamar getting his hands on the ball and taking contested marks.

Jumping early is a good technique to negate ruckmen who are taller (Cox) or much higher leapers (Naitanui) than you.

Where was Jamar's backup (Martin) against the league's best ruck combo last week? Sitting on the bench injured.

Its actually the other way. We do need more midfielders to stand but that does not stop Jamar getting his hands on the ball and taking contested marks.

I think it's a combintation of the two. I always thought, like most on here, that it was the way you said, but I watched Jamar's work quite closely on Saturday )albeit via telecast) and his tap downs did not put us to advantage. It will be argued that our mids (ex-Moloney) should shark his taps better, but if Jamar only has one trick when it comes to effecitve tap work, he's in a lot of trouble.

Depending on who our opposition is, and how they set up at a centre bounce or clearance, we should have 3 or 4 set plays that will ensure if Jamar wins the tap, he has the choice, and most importantly the ability to put the ball in those areas. At the moment, he has 1 (as Jumping Jack mentioned above).

Jumping early is a good technique to negate ruckmen who are taller (Cox) or much higher leapers (Naitanui) than you.

Where was Jamar's backup (Martin) against the league's best ruck combo last week? Sitting on the bench injured.

No, he was playing, his name was James Sellar. You know, the guy we picked up with pick 50+ and a lot on here thought it was like daylight robbery how we got him??

If you think we got Sellar (196cm) as a ruckman, you need to go back to draft school.

If you think we got Sellar (196cm) as a ruckman, you need to go back to draft school.

Sorry Maurie, I thought I saw Sellar playing as the 2nd ruck on Saturday. And at 196cm, is 2cm shorter than Martin, and I also believe reading somewhere after we picked Sellar up that he, like Martin, could pinch hit in the ruck when required.

The Russian seems to have completely lost his leap and that makes it even more difficult agianst almost always taller ruckmen .He now struggles and as a result the midfield struggles .Maric is a pedestrian bigman and Vickery not much better ,so Saturday will be a huge indicator of where Jamar is presently at .

I can't believe some of the crap i'm reading on this thread. Jamar has never been a high accumulator. What he does provide, when not tearing apart another ruckman, is a contest. At worst he gives a good account of himself in the ruck, his primary role in the team (not as much can be said for many in the team at the moment). If we are relying on him to get possession numbers too, then our mids aren't doing their job (which we all know). If he is under-performing in terms of influence on a game, throw him forward. Why not? He has proven he can take an overhead mark (most of our forwards can't do that atm) plus he will either take the heat off Clark, or get an inferior defender. Apart from Gawn (who even after his knee reco, will take a while to come on) and if Clark predominantly plays forward, we only have Stef as a replacement. He is putting in less of an influence than the Russian at the moment. Spencer is just a list clogger, and must be in hysterics that he is still on an AFL wage and Fitzpatrick, seriously? This guy whilst raw, is so far away from deserving a regular senior game that kids born yesterday have a better chance of making it, before he does.

The 'crap' you're reading in respect to Jamar is justified from the point of view that the days of low possession ruckmen who are there just to tap are very long gone. His ruckwork so far this season is barely ordinary, but that would be ok if he provided anything else. You say he has proven he can take a mark. I would suggest his marking stats for his career would be very ordinary in comparison to other good ruckmen. He is so slow that any possessions he does get are woefully blunt when he disposes of it. Most tellingly, the new strategy of kicking long down the boundary has shown him up. He has been outmarked and/or fails to provide a decent crumbable ball. I will accept that he is a confidence player, and should hopefully improve, but I am more confident that Jack Fitzpatrick, as young and raw as he may be, will be more involved in the game, even at his experienced stage. His athleticism is going to be his biggest asset while he develops, and will be hugely important as his games tally increases. That athleticism is precisely what Jamar lacks, and sadly because of his standout year of 2010, has made opposition clubs acutely aware of how to fatally expose him. He is basically now an impotent ruckman.

He is down but lets not kick him .

Spencer is just a list clogger, and must be in hysterics that he is still on an AFL wage and Fitzpatrick, seriously? This guy whilst raw, is so far away from deserving a regular senior game that kids born yesterday have a better chance of making it, before he does.

Clearly someone who never goes to Casey to watch him play and has made this call based on the one game he played last year.

A lot of upside to Fitzpatrick, I'd challenge you to find any 3rd year 205cm forward/ruck who has more upside to him then Fitzy. Moves better then anyone that size I've seen.

I think it's a combintation of the two. I always thought, like most on here, that it was the way you said, but I watched Jamar's work quite closely on Saturday )albeit via telecast) and his tap downs did not put us to advantage. It will be argued that our mids (ex-Moloney) should shark his taps better, but if Jamar only has one trick when it comes to effecitve tap work, he's in a lot of trouble.

Depending on who our opposition is, and how they set up at a centre bounce or clearance, we should have 3 or 4 set plays that will ensure if Jamar wins the tap, he has the choice, and most importantly the ability to put the ball in those areas. At the moment, he has 1 (as Jumping Jack mentioned above).

If you watched closely the previous week, Jamar still got 27 HOs while Moloney did little.

So at least we agree it has little to do with Jamar getting the hitout. The problem is the midfield quality. I would argue that while he needs 3 or 4 he has none.

Jumping early is a good technique to negate ruckmen who are taller (Cox) or much higher leapers (Naitanui) than you.

Where was Jamar's backup (Martin) against the league's best ruck combo last week? Sitting on the bench injured.

Correct.

Sorry Maurie, I thought I saw Sellar playing as the 2nd ruck on Saturday. And at 196cm, is 2cm shorter than Martin, and I also believe reading somewhere after we picked Sellar up that he, like Martin, could pinch hit in the ruck when required.

I think that was PR spin when he was recruited. Either you play Clark in the ruck and scrifice your only spearhead or you play Sellars.

The 'crap' you're reading in respect to Jamar is justified from the point of view that the days of low possession ruckmen who are there just to tap are very long gone.

I could not disagree more with that. If anything I am not sure the stats of an effective ruckman gets properly measured, In addition give our "so called" midfielders struggled to get over 20 touches individually and the possession count was over 60% to WCE then if you want a player that just picks up cheap kicksand handballs which account for little PJ is going spare.

FWIW, Jamar has also been up against two very capable ruck groups - Hudson/Leuenberger and Cox/Naitanau. Neither of those groups were going to be easy. And if we have had a weakness Martin gave us little the first week and we had no robust support for Jamar.

Jamar and Subi don't mix...

I am more interested in what he does against the Tigers.

He should get 35 hitouts and take 3 contested marks at least. He needs to have more of an impact forward when resting - because he is of little use anywhere else (save for the behind the ball marks he takes, but that in itself means he is being led around by his nose).

He will be here for a few more years yet.

Took forever to come good , had 1 stand out year and has again lost his mojo.

Should we do what we've always done and hand him a retirement fund or let the young stallions loose?

Took forever to come good , had 1 stand out year and has again lost his mojo.

Should we do what we've always done and hand him a retirement fund or let the young stallions loose?

AA ruckman are rare commodities.

And our 'young stallions' are injured and raw.

Jamar has been on one year contracts for years, it's very unfair to label him as a greedy mercenary the way you have.

A poster a few days ago spread a rumour about the players accepting Scully leaving well as it meant they would be paid more. Aside from the fact that Clark took the money set aside for Clark, it is mean spirited BS.

^{I'm sure some stats guru on here can do the research, but from memory Russian didn't exactly start 2010 by setting the world on fire. So whilst he is down probably a bit early to start laying the boots in}

Looks tired, carrying an injury?

AA ruckman are rare commodities.

And our 'young stallions' are injured and raw.

Jamar has been on one year contracts for years, it's very unfair to label him as a greedy mercenary the way you have.

Maybe once , but right now he ain't no AA ruckman.

The young stallions won't be injured forever but then again , maybe they will.

I missed the part where I labelled him a greedy mercenary but lets not talk 3 year deals on current form.

And like it not he's 1 of our mature leaders , I'd like to see him leading like 1.

Edited April 12, 201213 yr by Fork 'em

^{I'm sure some stats guru on here can do the research, but from memory Russian didn't exactly start 2010 by setting the world on fire. So whilst he is down probably a bit early to start laying the boots in}

He was near-best on ground against Collingwood in Round 2, so he played at least one good game early in 2010.

He's certainly looked down in the first two games of this year, as he did for the 2nd half of last year (after he got injured). Still gets plenty of hitouts, but doesn't have the impact he did in 2010 when he was taking ripping contested marks all around the ground and kicking goals. I'd love to see Clark do some of the rucking

Maybe once , but right now he ain't no AA ruckman.

The young stallions won't be injured forever but then again , maybe they will.

I missed the part where I labelled him a greedy mercenary but lets not talk 3 year deals on current form.

And like it not he's 1 of our mature leaders , I'd like to see him leading like 1.

I only saw your post, not any mention of a three year deal, so forgive my embellishment.

Jamar hasn't been a leader but has put together some strong years together. I am tough on our senior players and I have got what I wanted - young LG, and Green, Moloney and Davey asked to do more, but we must not scorch the earth here, we will still need some strong bodies even if their minds are not so strong.

I don't think Martin is ready and Gawn, Spencer, and Fitzpatrick are years away from taking over the number one ruck spot.

Can Demonlanders please give me some confidence in the value of our ex-All Australian ruckman.

Does he take enough marks?

Is he an effective kick?

Why do we continually lose possession at centre bounces?  Is it a lack of ability of our midfielders, or is it delivered in a predictable, and ineffective way?

Occasionally a ruckman is favoured by a slightly askew bounce up. When it favours the Russian, my impression is that he rarely puts it down the throat of a nearby team-mate. He never thumps it forward.

I'd say his best strength is negating the opp. rucks, but shouldn't we expect more?

He's not very tall compared to ,say, Cox or Sandilands, but he appears far less mobile to me.

Time after time his stats read well for hitouts, yet they're not very obvious to me. Does it count as a hitout if he touches it first and the ball drops into the pack?

Does he give away too many frees, even against inexperienced opponents?

Rucking is a complicated business, and it's easy to overlook  effective buffetting  work by big men.Perhaps that's where I'm wrong.

Can people reassure me we have a good ruckman in the Russian? It'll take more than raw "hitout stats" to convince me, for the reason mentioned above.

He appears to be very predictable in his ruck workHe taps it down to his toes rarely anywhere elseIMO it justs adds to the congestuion that we have at the ballneed to palm away from the pack to a place only our midfielders knowIf not possible spike it forwrd to our players running onWhat do other people think?

need to palm away from the pack to a place only our midfielders know. If not possible spike it forward to our players running on.

That easy, eh?