Dean Bailey

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

-RR I am getting lost in this discussion.

The simple fact is IMO we have only a few good senior players.

A few guys like Frawley who promised a lot.

A few juniors who show they will be long term good players.

The rest are either average or it is too early to to tell.

Can you give me any Idea when your "talented list" will show me they are the goods?

Wrong. The simple fact is that we have one good senior player... Jamar

Frawley promised alot??? He was AA last year at the age of 21! He is also playing very good football now.

You have a dim view of the future.

The Club has said repeatedly we need to get at least 50 games in each of these players before they have the experience and know. Many of the players I mentioned have 10,20,30 games and are showing they will be very good footballers. They are not plug in and play toys.

[praha 11,240]

I just want to see grunt at the club for once. Real, relentless, merciless grunt. On the field and in the coaches box.

[beelzebub 23,368]

Careful you will be branded as a heretic!

thats long been the case mate...lol. Heretic im fine with if that means I seek something against the 'accepted' norm. You will fully understand my meaning.

[Choko 493]

Wrong. The simple fact is that we have one good senior player... Jamar

Frawley promised alot??? He was AA last year at the age of 21! He is also playing very good football now.

You have a dim view of the future.

The Club has said repeatedly we need to get at least 50 games in each of these players before they have the experience and know. Many of the players I mentioned have 10,20,30 games and are showing they will be very good footballers. They are not plug in and play toys.

Everything you say is reasonable. As it will be if this list doesn't make it and you get out your retrospectoscope and diagnose, yet again, why it is perfectly reasonable that we failed... yet again....

Edited July 28, 2011 by Choko

[old dee 23,790]

Wrong. The simple fact is that we have one good senior player... Jamar

Frawley promised alot??? He was AA last year at the age of 21! He is also playing very good football now.

You have a dim view of the future.

The Club has said repeatedly we need to get at least 50 games in each of these players before they have the experience and know. Many of the players I mentioned have 10,20,30 games and are showing they will be very good footballers. They are not plug in and play toys.

Sorry RR my error I mean't to type "promises" a lot.

Oh well I am not perfect after all!

[beelzebub 23,368]

Sorry RR my error I mean't to type "promises" a lot.

Oh well I am not perfect after all!

you forget our motto ought to be

"potential spondeo totus"

[pantaloons 2,019]

Evans, Howe, Nicholson, Gawn, Tapscott, Blease have all debuted and played mutliple games.

Just picking a bit of your post, e25, but personally, I don't think this particular area has been the biggest factor in Melbourne's underwhelming form in 2011. Evans (4 games), Howe (7), Nicholson (7), Gawn (3), Tapscott (10) and Blease (1 as sub) haven't played a whole lot. Tapscott has a ready-made AFL physique and has slotted straight into our best 22, and Gawn was the logical replacement for Jamar during his absence rather than the comedic backup ruck offerings of Newton and Dunn, and big Max acquitted himself very nicely. If I was tooting Bailey's horn, I'd be pointing squarely at the performances of the senior players minus Jamar, as Rhino has demonstrated.

I'm probably having a few bob each way by criticising the team's performance this year while acknowledging the failings of the senior players, but I expect more, and I think that's reasonable. Could a proven premiership coach like Malthouse, Roos, Williams or Clarkson extract more out of the likes of Green, Davey and Sylvia, and a flailing younger player like Morton, for starters? Certainly, I think the latter two could benefit from a change of scenery.

For those less disappionted with 2011, I'd be interested to know when you see Melbourne's genuine success arriving, and whether you think Melbourne should be targetting at least one quality experienced leader in impending free agency to help strengthen the side's mettle. Personally, I'm set on a change of direction for Melbourne in 2012, though I'll gladly eat my words if we end up winning a flag under Bailey.

[Pipefitter 2,159]

As woeful as port have been this year they will beat us over there. I've seen nothing to suggest Melbourne will break that hoodoo this year.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Just picking a bit of your post, e25, but personally, I don't think this particular area has been the biggest factor in Melbourne's underwhelming form in 2011. Evans (4 games), Howe (7), Nicholson (7), Gawn (3), Tapscott (10) and Blease (1 as sub) haven't played a whole lot. Tapscott has a ready-made AFL physique and has slotted straight into our best 22, and Gawn was the logical replacement for Jamar during his absence rather than the comedic backup ruck offerings of Newton and Dunn, and big Max acquitted himself very nicely. If I was tooting Bailey's horn, I'd be pointing squarely at the performances of the senior players minus Jamar, as Rhino has demonstrated.

I'm probably having a few bob each way by criticising the team's performance this year while acknowledging the failings of the senior players, but I expect more, and I think that's reasonable. Could a proven premiership coach like Malthouse, Roos, Williams or Clarkson extract more out of the likes of Green, Davey and Sylvia, and a flailing younger player like Morton, for starters? Certainly, I think the latter two could benefit from a change of scenery.

For those less disappionted with 2011, I'd be interested to know when you see Melbourne's genuine success arriving, and whether you think Melbourne should be targetting at least one quality experienced leader in impending free agency to help strengthen the side's mettle. Personally, I'm set on a change of direction for Melbourne in 2012, though I'll gladly eat my words if we end up winning a flag under Bailey.

For me I'm not disappointed,,, Nor in raptures either... this year,, but frustrated from the early unco' form and body language from many.

We are where I thought we'd be about now. So in the scheme of things with those we've discovered/uncovered I'm rapt. (see Tapscott/ Howe/ Martin/ Nicholson/ Evans/ Gawn/ & Cook/ Davis/ Mcdonald)

On top of this I was incredibly frustrated with the push to finish the coach mid season,,, & the lack of toughness from the match committee early on to drop the soft players from the team.

Since then we've taken a stance on this stuff, & starting to punish poor endeavor & lack of heart.... Much better.

I'm hoping for 10 wins but it's not essential.

-------------------------------------------

2012 I hope and expect to be shooting for the finals for the first time in a while & a much more vigorous approach from the players & the match committee.

I hope we take a more winning attitude @ games, and slightly less developmental attitude for 2012... Playing the bigger bodied players on our list as much as possible.

[Hardnut 327]

In response to Rhino's numerous comments.

'Me thinks the lady doth protest too much' (with apologies to Shakespeare).

MFC needs to take on the tough fights and stop making excuses - I too am old enough to remember when MFC fought to win regardless of the odds against it - even in the old days the playing field was not even, but we still found a way to win!

[beelzebub 23,368]

someone draw a line in the sand and send the photo to the club to help them understand the concept !!

[Guest Thomo]

Easy. Because in glimpse of their short careers today the following are stepping up to the plate Watts, Scully,Trengove, Frawley, Garland, Martin, Howe, Gysberts, Grimes, Gawn.

The level of talent on the list is debatable. Of the players that you listed, most could be stars, or they could be the next Dunn/Newton

Of the players that you named as the talented list;

Watts - Should be a star, but still yet to prove a lot. Still judged on potential, and has not become a good player yet (I think he will be the best player in the AFL in three years, but still to prove it)

Scully - Overhyped, poor disposal, great endurance, may be a star, but yet to show that he will make it to the top because of his weakness in disposal, marking, injury, scoreing ability, and may not be at MFC in the future

Trengove - Clearly talented, already a good player, should be very good

Frawley - Would walk into any team. Genuine star

Garland - Good back man, solid B grader, but would not be guaranteed a game at Collingwood or Geelong.

Martin - Great improvement, but still just a second string ruckman who cannot hold down a forward position in a poor side, hopefully the improvement continues.

Howe - OK third tall looking like he could be a good player, but borderline best 22 in a poor side. Hopefully he improves, but if not he is currently at the same level as Dunn

Gysberts - Showing plenty and should be a very good player, needs to develop physically

Grimes - Could be very good, but has missed two thirds of possible games due to injury, and a long term career could be doubtful. At this stage he is not a certainty to be part of the future. Also has poor disposal.

Gawn - Too early to call. Coming back from a knee reco, for a big player there still has to be queries over him physically in the future.

So on what they have shown so far, the list is not talented, but potentially talented. Two new teams have more cash and better draft picks than the MFC, so success is far from certain.

And Rhino, your patronising and put downs of other posters in every thread is ruining this site. Others can have an opinion, you're not the only one.

[trout 385]

In my opinion Dean Bailey will be one of the luckiest coaches ever if he is given a contract extension with our results so far this year. I think any rookie coach in their fourth year at a club that has an average loseing margin of 52 points would struggle to get an extension. I also think history would show very few rookie coaches survive not making finals within four years. I like Bailey and will feel for him if he his too be sacked, however I think its about time the Melbourne FC demanded success not just wanted it. I would love the club to poach Clarkson and Evans from Hawthorn as replacements for Bailey and Connerly.

[Striker475 696]

On Bailey, who would you replace him with now if you're suggesting that current performance is not good enough?

Remember:

- Malthouse is now more than likely staying at the Filth

- Roos has said he doesn't want a job til 2014

- Clarkson will probably get a new deal

- Eade? Really?

- Craig? REALLY?

- There's Matthews and the old brigade, but once again, REALLY?

You're really looking at an assistant - a Sanderson etc.

Stick with him. Why not? A 1year extension does no harm if strict performance targets are in place AND he makes 10 wins. Hell, Roos said he may consider a coaching position for 2014. Give DB 2 years to shape up or ship him out.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Striker475

[Guest hangon007]

If I am not mistaken, North Melbourne won a few premierships in the 1990's and had nowhere near the financial backing as some of the other clubs.

You are mistaken. This is simply not true. I was at North during the 90's as part of one of their sponsorship groups. They were fantastic at raising money & investing it inside their football department.

[felixdacat 459]

I for one think Bailey deserves an extension, as he will continue to develop our younger players. I would give him 2 year easy because at that point the potential stars we have will have matured and developed and you will see the fruits of the recuriting we have done over the last few seasons.

What I find interesting is that most of the commentators, experts and even opposition coaches talk about how we are inconsistent and how we either [censored] teams or we get flogged. Also opposing players and coaches talk about their curiosity about which Melbourne they will see on the park on the day. When our future champions (and they are that you wait and see) starting getting used to consistently playing at the level that is needed. The curiosity will become a certainty that they are in for a 4 quarters of pain that will end in tears. lol

Go Bailey! Go the Mighty Dees!

[Demon SeaMan 108]

I'm surprised a Lethal Matthews wouldnt be talked about in these circles. Surely there is a hunger there and a brilliant coach with a record that speaks for itself.

The concern like mentioned above is Qtrs Won this yr and the concern being second and third efforts. Maybe developed bodies next yr will tell the story and with our player talent the natural ability will shine even more- with 'a bit of hustle behind the muscle' (George Washington-Rocky5)

Bailey for a 1yr contract for mine

[Born to Run 204]

North won two premierships (1996 and 1999) on the back of two of the greatest players to have ever pulled on the North jumper....Carey and Archer. They were well supported by a plethora of B graders. But that was 12 to 15 years, the whole financial dynamic of football has changed. The financial difference between the haves and the have nots continues to widen. All the football costs outside the salary cap are uncontrolled by the AFL and the richer clubs are able to buy, retain and develop the best. The poor live hand to mouth and play catch up where they fall further behind.

Maybe you should support North. They are crock as a Club. They wont make the finals, there best players are ageing and they will never seriously challenge in the foreseeable future. They are financial destitute with a crumbling supporter base and questions over there long term future. They only exist to provide air time for the TV rights. Not much to be impressed about.

Does it ever bother you that "our draw is the best that we could hope for" and its looks terrible against the gilded draw of CCollingwood. Darwin indeed does count. MFC need money to stay afloat and have to sell games to Darwin to do this. Yes it is our choice but do you think we should reduce our coaching staff by 2 people to cover the loss of revenue? We would have even fewer coaches and football staff than the Pies, Essendon and Eagles.

Its not a matter of the AFL deliberately boning us but the AFL draw unevenly favours some clubs over others. So this is just one example where sides dont have an equal opportunity that you claim.

People who say they are sick of excuses are generally those that dont understand the reasons why the outcomes are as they are. I love the cliche of "accepting second best/mediocrity". Can you names of MFC personnel who have stated that they have done that. For most of the past 46 years MFC have not been good enough to challenge the best. The clean out of list over the ppast four years and the recruitment of young talent is our best chance to build to make a challenge in future years. But it is difficult because of the financial and other obstacles MFC have to overcome which are not as difficult for some other clubs.

Hope you get better.

Thanks for the above.

I know understand some of the party lines that demonland posters must believe in, these being:

1) Melbourne has less chance of winning a flag than other clubs

2) The AFL is deliberately trying to make everything harder for the MFC (including extremely unfair fixturing)

3) North are a nothing club just because demonland says they are

4) Norths better players are all ageing and they will never seriously challenge in the forseeable future. (This includes their young spuds of Cunnington, Bastinac, Swallow, Zeibel, Goldstein)

5) By not openly and expressly stating that we are accepting mediocrity means that we definitely and categorically have a culture that demands the absolute best out of all concerned and we are ruthless

Got it.

Looking forward to learning the rest.

[Demon SeaMan 108]

I'm surprised a Lethal Matthews wouldnt be talked about in these circles. Surely there is a hunger there and a brilliant coach with a record that speaks for itself.

The concern like mentioned above is Qtrs Won this yr and the concern being second and third efforts. Maybe developed bodies next yr will tell the story and with our player talent the natural ability will shine even more- with 'a bit of hustle behind the muscle' (George Washington-Rocky5)

Bailey for a 1yr contract for mine

Side issue- ive uploaded a photo 150x100 and it doesnt show my ugly mullet can anyone assist! its not all football you know cheers

[The Chazz 4,077]

I have absolutely no idea if Bailey should get another year or 2, or if he should be gone at the end of the year. While I have been on Bailey's side since day 1, I still try and read this thread from an unbiased perspective. But there are so many points raised from either party that can be seen either way, depending on your stance. For example;

* The draw - yeah, sure, it may have seemed our easiest for some time at the start of the year, but have we not won the games that we were expected to? Probably this coming Eagles game is one that most had penciled in at the start of the year, but who would've seen their improvement? Let's face it, North have been a bogey side of ours for a lot longer than Bailey's time at the club. But then, you can also argue that our losses are worse than what they were last year. At the start of the season, I would've been happy with 10.5 wins, that is even taking in to consideration the new guys. Reality, it is still more wins than last year = some level of improvement?

* Injuries have crippled us, there is no doubt about it. Having our better players out for chunks of the year is always going to hurt, but we aren't on our own. What it does though is highlight just how well Hawthorn are travelling. Geelong and Collingwood have not had to deal with the issues a lot of other clubs have had to deal with.

* It would/could be fantastic if we could get Malthouse or Roos to coach us, but why, just why would they pick Melbourne out of any team? Every Club in the league would find a spot in their FD to accommodate either, why do you think we should sack Bailey, then click our fingers and have the choice of either? The talk about what Malthouse and Roos can get out of their senior players is better than Bailey, but would they be able to do it with our senior players? It is a massive unknown, and I just honeslty can't see how anyone can have a definitive yes to that question.

* The questions raised about Jimmy needing to make the tough decisions and acting on them are just stupid. How do you know that he hasn't already made them? Maybe by giving Bailey a 2 year extension at the end of this season is one of those decisions? Just because some of you wouldn't like it doesn't mean you know for a fact that the Club has made the wrong decision. No offence, but I believe Stynes has some pretty good business decision makers around him, and they would be a lot smarter and more qualified than most of us on here.

* People are bringing up Bailey's 4 year record to use in their arguements. While I acknowledge that he has in fact been here for 4 seasons, regardless of whose side I am on, I can't take the first 2 years in to any consideration whatsoever. Bailey has had to do what Pagan had to do to Carlton. Don't think Ratten is some miracle worker, all the hard work was done by the time he took over, and now look at how they are going. If Bailey hadn't put the Club before his coaching record, we will not be in a position to have Trengove running around, and hopefully Scully. Even if Scully leaves, and we managed to get that Jaeger kid and another good player, we got them because of Bailey's "experimenting" in his 2nd year, no other reason.

* I also laugh at those who think Bailey accepts any loss, and futher to that, poor performance from his players. It is a totally unsubstantiated claim, and is irrelevant in the arguement. We do not know what is going on behind closed doors. While Bailey gives us 10 minutes after a game at a presser, we do not know if his on-screen ways are the same as in the half time huddle. Maybe he knows exactly where his senior players are at, and no amount of miracle work can get them to a level that they are not capable of (even though we think they should get there). The easy answer is get rid of them if they are no good. I thought he has done that pretty well to date (Yze, Robbo, Brown, McDonald, etc). To be honest, he has probably had too much of a cleanout, but that's not to say his decisions were incorrect.

I could go on and on (some probably think I have too much already). But one thing I am disappointed about, the comments being made about our current kids. The questions being asked about if they have enough talent, etc to take us to a flag. Well, you can ask that about every single club in the league and the answer wont be known until the end of their careers. The Club has made some tough decisions about the playing list, and believe that the drafting process was our best option. Why can't our supporters have faith in this decision? Don't use that crap line about us being patient and promised for so long, because I've been around for long enough to share similar feelings. Maybe I'm mad for believing every promise the Club has made in my time. I trust my Club, they are not going to make decisions to harm our chances of the ultimate success, they are going to make decisions that they think are the best for the club. If in 5 years time, we are still lurking in the bottom 8, then I will lose trust in the current group, and no doubt by that stage there will be a new group that I will have my trust in. I strongly beleive the Club is in its strongest position since I was born, and am hopeful that premierships aren't far away. I know that this comment will attract retaliation, but if you're sick of the Club not fulfilling promises, why the hell are you barracking for us? Go and barrack for the Western Bulldogs or Stkilda, oh that's right, their supporters are probably sick of hearing the same thing.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Everything you say is reasonable. As it will be if this list doesn't make it and you get out your retrospectoscope and diagnose, yet again, why it is perfectly reasonable that we failed... yet again....

You should know there are no certainties in football. To win a flag you need everything to go right. And you can lose by the slimmest margin and the dream is lost. Just ask St K, WCE and Swans. In MFC's case given its financial and other dispositions it needs more to go right than some other Clubs to get there.

MFC's blue print gives us the best chance of success. But no certainty of it.

MFC needs to take on the tough fights and stop making excuses - I too am old enough to remember when MFC fought to win regardless of the odds against it - even in the old days the playing field was not even, but we still found a way to win!

Which hard fights are you talking about. Are you old to remember why the situation in football is much more different or have you been too distracted by the Bard?

The level of talent on the list is debatable. Of the players that you listed, most could be stars, or they could be the next Dunn/Newton

Its not the talent thats debatable it the development and the production of the performances that reflect that talent. As I have said ad nauseam, the talent is potential and our future success depends on a number of factors giong right...some we can control, others that we cant. But the players I mention are unlikely to end up a Dunn or Newton. I think some of them will be stars or at the very least 200game players (hopefully with MFC) with great careers.

So on what they have shown so far, the list is not talented, but potentially talented. Two new teams have more cash and better draft picks than the MFC, so success is far from certain.

As I stated before your first statement is wrong but it might just be poor choice of words. Of the players I picked, most have not played 50 games, are under 21 and are playing in side where the lack of leadership and support by senior players is farcical. I think under the circumstances there are been some very promising performances and we are heading in the right direction. And I have said ad nauseam, success is......

Thanks for the above.

I know understand some of the party lines that demonland posters must believe in, these being:

1) Melbourne has less chance of winning a flag than other clubs

2) The AFL is deliberately trying to make everything harder for the MFC (including extremely unfair fixturing)

3) North are a nothing club just because demonland says they are

4) Norths better players are all ageing and they will never seriously challenge in the forseeable future. (This includes their young spuds of Cunnington, Bastinac, Swallow, Zeibel, Goldstein)

5) By not openly and expressly stating that we are accepting mediocrity means that we definitely and categorically have a culture that demands the absolute best out of all concerned and we are ruthless

Got it.

Looking forward to learning the rest.

Well done on missing the point on each occassion. Quite an achievement.

[Hardnut 327]

Rhino, get rid of the TS pic - you're giving him a bad image!

For the record - some of us oldies keep right up to date with modern footy - we observe, listen, learn, think and act, rather than write whatever comes into our heads! Oldies even include coaches and commentators - funny that - it's called experience.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Interesting article in the Herald Sun.

Demons board considers one-year deal for coach Dean Bailey

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/demons-board-considers-one-year-deal-for-coach-dean-bailey/story-e6frf9jf-1226104666684

As they say

"One prominent Demon explained it this way yesterday.

"We know Dean Bailey can coach," he said.

"Is he a great coach? We don't know that yet, but what would be the point in appointing a first-year person and then waiting to find out if they can coach".

[Dee Fan 3,247]

But wait; there's still more.

The Dean Bailey enigma

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/the-dean-bailey-enigma/story-e6frf9jf-1226104708044

OFF-FIELD

"BAILEY just wants to coach, yet he has two very passionate footballing people at the club in chief executive Cameron Schwab and footy general manager Chris Connolly (pictured).

Both Schwab and Connolly love the daily thrust and parry of all things football, such as list management and team selection.

Schwarz refuses to comment on the political landscape at the club other than to acknowledge "a bit is going on''.

But he says there is a person available who would be of great benefit to Bailey.

"(Former North Melbourne coach) Dean Laidley wants to live and work in Melbourne and would be ideal to assist Dean Bailey in the footballing department.''

When you speak to Melbourne insiders, they are forthcoming about all aspects of the club, with the exception of the current political maneuvering.

Don't be surprised if there is movement in this area over summer."

I wouldn't be unhappy to see Dean Laidley at the club, apart from getting the two mixed up all the time I reckon it could only be good for us, Laidley has a good football brain, but of course would Bailey care to listen.

Edited July 29, 2011 by RobbieF

[old dee 23,790]

Just read the article in the HUN I think it is quite good.

Covers the issues well.

Interesting times are ahead.