Bailey Knights Hardwick Harvey Scott

[Harrisonrules 273]

So they say the daggers are drawn at bomber land just waiting for him to make one slip. Tomorrow could be the day. I have personal contacts that have given me an insight into the rumblings at windy hill. I don't care a stuff about Knights or windy hill. What concerns me is the utter silence at the 'G'. Two and a half of the most deplorable years at Melbourne I can remember in 55 years of watching. Don't throw at me , 'but look at our list, they are just kids'. At the beginning of the year we scoffed at the Tigers. Everyone scoffed at the tigers, all clubs, even our administration in quiet unguarded moments. This forum was as bad as any. And look at what Hardwick is doing with those kids. 5 out of 6 wins. Last year people scoffed at the Dockers but Harvey is doing something right. The Kangas claimed they had a younger team than us when they ran over us under their new coach Scott at Etihad.

How would you rate these five of the newest coaches. However you do it it would be a very hard task to put Bailey ahead of any of the others.

The silence at the 'G' is deafening.

[GawnWithTheWind 604]

The hardest thing for a club and each individual is to get out of the mindset "its ok to lose".

A good mate of mine constantly told me when we were tanking.. that " building a winning culture is more important then picking up good draft picks". He said "yeh they will help, but if the players are relaxed about losing.. then turning it around and winning will be a massive effort". I am starting to see this more and more. The team still seem content with great efforts and coming so close... so hopefully bailey keeps at them to change this culture and make the players desperate for that next win...

Bailey has the kids.. and he has one and a half more years to prove he is the right man for the job and turn this culture around at the MFC. He deserves the year and a half to prove this to the Melbourne supporters.. but if he cannot do this.. he will be the biggest failure of all these new coaches..

But forget about this for one day...... We have a massive game tommorow, Mr Watts.... Its time!

[Real Demon 232]

Some excellent points!

Watching the Tigers beat Freo tonight, it amazed me how quickly they have adopted Hardwick's game plan.

It's taken us forever to learn Bailey's style, and we still labour though it week after week!!!

I'd rate them in the following order at present:

1.Hardwick - has been brilliant for the Tiges, and without doubt I rate him the pick of the bunch, especially considering their list was considered a train wreck!

2.Harvey - Has done a great job this year, and has finally brought some heart to the Dockers.

3.Scott - Has been solid, and appears to be getting the most out of his cattle.

4.Bailey - We've improved this year no doubt, but have seriously trailed off recently. If both Collingwood games were wins, and the Bulldogs game a win, that would give us 7, and we would in the top 8 or just outside, which would be a good result. Can lift his rating depending on how we finish the year!

5.Knights - I don't rate Knights, and love the fact he is coaching the Bombers, and I want to see them down as long as possible! Having said that, their list is poor, and he has got them up for a few good wins this year. His all out attack style was a joke though, and was doomed to fail in today's football.

Overall, I think Bailey is solid, and is still the man for the job.

How the season finishes is going to be very important for him though.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Real Demon

[Gorgoroth 12,924]

I do not think the tigers list is that bad, they have a decent enough core of players who have played or been on their list for quite a while.

Maybe the fact they are not getting abused from Richo every 5 minutes has been a good thing too.

[Jaded No More 68,867]

Just like North, Essendon and Richmond now, we had a really good run of games where we showed plenty and had the whole footy world talking (round 2 through to 6 where we won 3 in a row, and lost by the narrowest of margins to the Pies and Dogs).

The thing with young developing teams are that they are inconsistent and once they get on a roll, be it losing or winning, it takes them a long time to change the cycle.

Richmond are full of energy and confidence at the moment, but they will soon run out of puff, just as we did.

We've also had some injuries to the team that has cut out a lot of our momentum. Petterd and Bail were huge loses to our running game and robbed us of crucial forward targets, and we have definitely struggled without our captain. We are relying on very young kids to carry the midfield, which is always very difficult (whereas North and Richmond have the likes of Harvey and Cousins who are bona fide superstars). But most importantly, we lack senior leadership. Our older players are inconsistent and that hurts a team full of kids who need support around them.

On the plus side, I think our defense is without a doubt the best of those teams you mentioned. Frawley is as good as they come, and we have great flexibility with Garland and Grimes. We also have the making of an elite midfield, and that's without seeing Blease or Tapscott yet.

I'm very comfortable with Bailey at the moment, because at the moment the actual number of wins is of little significance. The game plan we are trying to execute takes longer to prefect than perhaps the defensive game of North or the all out attack of Essendon, but it is also the most potentially damaging game plan of all (see Geelong). Better to learn now and win big later.

As for Freo, they are in a completely different position to us. Have been building for years and years and have some very good mature players (and stars) in their side. When we're challenging for a premiership they'll be struggling without Pavlich and Sandilands.

[Supermercado 2,797]

Darren Crocker deserves credit for keeping North together when Laidley got the boot last year.

The only upside is that if we're rubbish next year and it gets to a coach sacking scenario, we're probably paying Bailey minimum wage anyway so it won't cost much to give him the boot if required.

[Gorgoroth 12,924]

Also look at this, jurrah, probably our best forward, actually easily our best forward. Has not played a game. Take Reiwoldt out of tiges, do they win.... no, Now Jurrah is back, Sylvia back in we actually have two smart forwards who can rip a team apart. Throw in petterd next year and 5+ more kilos and 8 more games into Watts and things look much much better. Not to even mention the likes of Scully, Trengove adding another pre season and a bigger body to boot.

[Hannabal 4]

So they say the daggers are drawn at bomber land just waiting for him to make one slip. Tomorrow could be the day. I have personal contacts that have given me an insight into the rumblings at windy hill. I don't care a stuff about Knights or windy hill. What concerns me is the utter silence at the 'G'. Two and a half of the most deplorable years at Melbourne I can remember in 55 years of watching. Don't throw at me , 'but look at our list, they are just kids'. At the beginning of the year we scoffed at the Tigers. Everyone scoffed at the tigers, all clubs, even our administration in quiet unguarded moments. This forum was as bad as any. And look at what Hardwick is doing with those kids. 5 out of 6 wins. Last year people scoffed at the Dockers but Harvey is doing something right. The Kangas claimed they had a younger team than us when they ran over us under their new coach Scott at Etihad.

How would you rate these five of the newest coaches. However you do it it would be a very hard task to put Bailey ahead of any of the others.

The silence at the 'G' is deafening.

It's a good post and even better topic.

The best thing about Bailey is that under extraordinarily difficult circumstances he's galvanised the club and playing group. You won't hear a bad word about Bailey. From Cameron Schwab down to the players they're behind him almost to a man (if you can't get a game then he's probably not your favourite person). When one considers that this is arguably our worst 3 year period in history (statistically anyway) that's some feat.

I can't imagine that any other coach would have had worse results than Bailey. It's almost inconceivable. But I also can't imagine that any other coach would have handled themselves better as the public face of a club under immense pressure. How many CEO's has he had ? It's for this very reason that he's cut an inordinate amount of slack and regularly goes under the radar. He has more teflon than Julia Gillard.

I have to say though that Damien Hardwicke really impresses me. He comes across as a great bloke and one that doesn't talk crap. I can imagine that the players would want to play for him. We have a better list than the Tigers, but he's getting better results (irrespective of today's outcome).

Can Bailey coach ? I think so. Is he a great coach ? I doubt it - yet. Getting towards the end of his third year and there are as many questions unanswered as answered. Fwiw, I reckon coaching is overrated. Alan Joyce won a premiership at Hawthorn when he took over form a sick Allan Jeans. Subsequently he went to Footscray and was hopeless. He had fantastic players at Hawthorn and didn't at Footscray. The players at both clubs hated his guts. Hawthorn players have spoken of winning a premiership in spite of him. At least the players and seemingly the whole club like Bailey, which I suspect is half the battle. From a distance, Bailey appears to be a very good 'manager'. And in reality I don't reckon that a club needs much more than that, as long as the other coaches and footy personnel are good at what they do. Ultimately it gets back to the talent on the list, as well as the the ability to properly develop it. A wise man once said, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken [censored]".

[Steamin Demon 392]

Take an entire forward line out of any side by round 6 and see how they go. The only coach I rate above Bailey is Hardwick. He inherited a shocking list much like Bailey did three years ago. FWIW Baileys first two years shouldn't even be counted, This is his first year where he has been able to play the players he has wanted and actually in there right positions. So l would save judgement for year ending 2011.

[titan_uranus 24,974]

Richmond's injury list is close to non-existent (in terms of best 22 players that is). They've missed some of their defenders at various stages but their midfield have been together all year and their forward line (read Riewoldt) has been there since Round 1.

At various stages of this year we've missed Jurrah, Sylvia, Petterd, McDonald and Grimes, as well as Bail (close to best 22 IMO).

Having said that, Richmond's won at AAMI and at the Gabba. Could we do that, even with some or all of those injured players in our team? We have both those games coming up this year, so we'll see.

[Whispering_Jack 29,792]

Melbourne has taken a different philosophical approach to some other clubs and only time will tell if that approach works better than the one adopted by Hardwick at Richmond and Scott at North Melbourne. Our philosophy requires extreme levels of self-discipline within the club at all levels. From a supporter's point of view, it demands a great deal of faith in what the football department is doing and the hardest part is understanding that the plan is not infallible.

It's not easy because a team sport also demands the developoment of a winning edge and it has never sat well with me when we are told time and time again that our aim is to be a strength in the competition by 2014. What does that do if you're concerned with the here and now in 2010? Well, there is an answer.

Hardwick and Scott are now reaping the short term gains of their approach - Richmond, in terms of the enormous improvement shown over the past month or so and North, in the fact that they've lifted after some ordinary form early in the season to the point where they are challenging for a place in the top eight. However, I can't help but think that our opposition today in Essendon, took a similar tack after Matthew Knights was appointed (at the same time as Dean Bailey). They made some major gains, beat top sides, made the finals last year and even notched up some good wins earlier this year but where are they now? In the same boat as us and struggling.

Winning this week sounds like a good idea but you need to set up a solid foundation for the future at the same time. Our emphasis has been on the latter and while, I agree with many that it's time to start letting the conservative shackles loose a bit, we need to maintain the discipline for a little longer.

[Guest hangon007]

Melbourne has taken a different philosophical approach to some other clubs and only time will tell if that approach works better than the one adopted by Hardwick at Richmond and Scott at North Melbourne. Our philosophy requires extreme levels of self-discipline within the club at all levels. From a supporter's point of view, it demands a great deal of faith in what the football department is doing and the hardest part is understanding that the plan is not infallible.

It's not easy because a team sport also demands the developoment of a winning edge and it has never sat well with me when we are told time and time again that our aim is to be a strength in the competition by 2014. What does that do if you're concerned with the here and now in 2010? Well, there is an answer.

Hardwick and Scott are now reaping the short term gains of their approach - Richmond, in terms of the enormous improvement shown over the past month or so and North, in the fact that they've lifted after some ordinary form early in the season to the point where they are challenging for a place in the top eight. However, I can't help but think that our opposition today in Essendon, took a similar tack after Matthew Knights was appointed (at the same time as Dean Bailey). They made some major gains, beat top sides, made the finals last year and even notched up some good wins earlier this year but where are they now? In the same boat as us and struggling.

Winning this week sounds like a good idea but you need to set up a solid foundation for the future at the same time. Our emphasis has been on the latter and while, I agree with many that it's time to start letting the conservative shackles loose a bit, we need to maintain the discipline for a little longer.

Superb post! AND some way "counter intuitive" ... but somewhat hard to "sell" dont you think?

But please dont get me wrong I'm with you 100%.

[Whispering_Jack 29,792]

Superb post! AND some way "counter intuitive" ... but somewhat hard to "sell" dont you think?

But please dont get me wrong I'm with you 100%.

It's not only counter-intuitive but it can also be confusing given that most of us cut our teeth on an ethos of winning.

I doubt whether I could have followed the club in the late 60s and 70s without the belief that we were capable of winning every week (how stupid of me) and yet now I look at things differently.

I agree partly with Hannabal about coaches being overestimated but only at the level at which Melbourne finds itself at the moment. At the top level, coaches make an enormous difference. If that were not the case, Collingwood would be struggling to make the eight rather than be sitting comfortably in the top four.

For that reason, I think we will see more pressure on our club's coaching position if we don't produce results in terms of wins. However. for the reasons given above the pressure will only be external.

[Guest hangon007]

Oh & I should add - I'm not convinced all Melbourne supporters have bought the "programme".

I say this for two reasons - they still are very quick to turn on their own.

A/ Here on this very site.

&

B/ Still at the games - where and when Melbourne players make a mistake - they cop as much from their own supporters as they do from opposition supporters.

But suppose that's ultimately football.

Everyone to their own.

Go Dees!!!

Edited July 12, 2010 by hangon007